"Burning in Hell"

[Vanguard]

As with most of my apologetics/theology posts, I wanted to talk about something controversial. It is in these types of threads where we really get down to the nitty gritty of religion. I also find that these type of threads can yield some of the best results as far as understanding religion. These topics are not meant to confuse, chastise or anger anyone, but rather allow us to explore the Bible in-depth, with the hopes that we gain some knowledge or understanding. To that end...



"Burning in Hell"

Where did the idea come from? When did it start? What is it based off of? Let's explore these questions and the topic...

For starters, the Bible does not mention "hell" in the literal sense that we think of it today. Here's where we need a little history lesson. The Hebrew word "sheol" simply means "the grave." The Greek translates this as "hades" and it also refers to "realm of the dead [grave]." However, this is largely based off Greek mythology, as Hades is also the name of the Greek god who rules the underworld.

The actual word "hell" comes from a variety of sources, the most prevalent being the Old English word "helle" (circa early 8th century AD). It also refers to the "land of the dead." The idea of eternal torment of souls or a lake of fire for sinners, well, that stems more from legend, not Scripture. Let me explain.

By the end of the 2nd century AD, early Christians started blending Greek philosophy with the rising popularity of Christian philosophy. The Greeks learned early on that you needed to have control over the population. The best way to go about this is to instill fear of the gods and death if you "dishonored the gods." If you control the hearts and minds, you have power over people. These early Christians were influenced in that part of the world by numerous cultures, including the Greeks.

The idea of hell grew not from divine revelations, but from varied cultural philosophies. It was a system of control. Priests, regardless of time or culture, have held a lot of power.

As a matter of fact, in Orthodox Judaism, you won't find any mention of the idea of hell. No where in the OT does it speak of it. Sheol (the grave), yes. Hell, no.

Fast forward to the end of the Dark Ages.

Note: at this juncture I am not trash talking the RCC. I am only going from a historical standpoint that further demonstrates the topic of this thread.

The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was dominant in Europe. The church wielded a lot of power and influence. Their Bible (the Latin Vulgate) was unreadable to most for two main reasons:

1. Farmers, smiths, craftsmen, etc. were mostly illiterate.
2. The Latin Vulgate was written in...Latin. The peasants couldn't read it, even if they were literate in their native languages.

The RCC literally told people what to believe, how to worship, how to pray, etc. The Pope and the RCC had A LOT of power back then. Many of the clergymen entered the church for an easy, rich, comfortable living. The historic accounts of corruption are numerous (they are not the only "church" to have corruption). There was also this popular idea of doing things in God's name, as false as they may be.

Banking on old Greek philosophies, clergymen used the threat of "burning in hell for your sins" as a massive control mechanism. They literally kept people in fear of sin and death. All a priest had to do was accuse someone of being ungodly and their execution was all but assured. It's no wonder some of the Old World priests/bishops/cardinals were also among the wealthiest people around. Back then, they cashed in on people's fears.

Out of this "hell fire" era rose the stories, legends and folklore surrounding the idea of hell. One method of execution back then was to be burned at the stake. People knew it was painful and grotesque. What they didn't understand back then was biology and anatomy (as we do today). We know that pain comes from sensations in your nerve receptors that send signals to your brain. Since your nerves and brain stay behind when you die, there's no evidence of "feeling the fire" after death. It is a physical sensation, in the literal sense. The idea of burning in fire eternally was a MASSIVE control mechanism.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is pure historical fact.




Now, let's take a step back and study what the Bible does say.

There are numerous verses that indicate "hell" but none come out and say it. They are implied, but also taken out of context in order to support the idea of hell. As we stated earlier, the Hebrew does not speak of a hell. That is a Christian concept based off centuries of philosophy and control.

Someone may throw the term "Gehenna" out there. Jesus did speak of it 11 times, but He was referring to being absent of the Kingdom of Heaven after the second coming. What happened is that over the ages, people started substituting the idea of "Hell" for "Gehenna." This is done erroneously.

Now, as a Christian I grew up on the KJV and was taught all about hell, sin, eternal torment, etc. I do believe in God, Jesus and Heaven, but hell is a different story. The more I research and learn, the more I am convinced that traditional Christian teachings "have it wrong" in some areas. It's almost as if they are going on tradition rather than Scripture. Feel free to disagree.

Here is my challenge: if you find a verse in the Bible that you think says or refers to "hell," bring it up and we'll discuss it objectively and within context.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I don't wanna stay up and get into it now, but this reminds me of James Burke's ideas on the RCC and Galileo.
His position was that the RCC was not really nefarious in it's treatment of Galileo - but that they honestly thought Galileo's public teachings about the universe would instill a "lack of faith" in people that would (because they believed, right or wrong, that such faith held society together, that it kept order), lead to chaos socially.

Same may be said here.

In any event, I hope to re-join the discussion later in the week. Right now, it's 1130pm here and I have to get up for work tomorrow....


Oh, and GREAT IDEA for a topic...

 

[Aloysium]

how about:

Daniel
12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Mark
9:48 where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

Matthew
13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
25:45 Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€

Revelation
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

the thing about fire is that it consumes what is being burned; it may be that burning in Hell causes the person to perish

However, God being eternal will know that person until the end of time,
i seriously do not like it when others see my failings, my sins
and this is God, whose judgement really matters
not having known Him, i would have put myself beyond
His infinite compassion and forgiveness

just some thoughts

 

[Osgiliath]

You nailed it Vanguard.


Hell is an Anglo-Saxon verb 'hele' which meant to hide, conceal, or bury. It is not even a translation - it was added to the Scriptures.

• "Sheol" is the only Hebrew word translated "hell" in the Old Testament, and this word occurs 65 times. It is translated "hell" 31 times, "grave" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in the King James Bible.

• "Hades" is derived from the Greek verb "horao." "Horao" means "I am seeing." The Greeks then prefixed the word with "a" (alpha) which negates "to see" thus coining the noun "Hades" meaning "unseen." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "unseen." These two words do not describe what the English theological word "hell" means to convey.

• "Gehenna" occurs 12 times in the New Testament; 11 times in the Gospels and one time in the Epistle of James. Jesus used "Gehenna" 7 times. Some of the occurrences of "Gehenna" are in parallel passages, that is, they refer to the same event. "Gehenna" is the Greek form of the Hebrew "ge-hinnom." It literally means "valley of Hinnom" Sometimes it is referred to as the "valley of the sons of Hinnom." In the Old Testament "Tophet" also refers to this place. "Gehenna" is a valley that lays on the west and southwest of Jerusalem.
  
  
  In the valley of Hinnom, Israel caused their children to be PASSED THROUGH THE FIRE as a burnt offering to a god who came to be known as Molech - a practice which God DETESTED.
  
  
  This begs the question: If God detested such a practice, why would God do the very same thing Himself.....PASS HIS CHILDREN THROUGH THE FIRE.... and for ETERNITY?

• "Tartarus" occurs one single time in the entire Bible and it is found in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the place where sinning angels (messengers) are reserved unto judgment.

The English word "Hell" occurs 54 times in the King James Bible, and is a translation of 4 Hebrew and Greek words. Not one of the words has a meaning even closely related to the meaning theologians have given the English word "Hell."

• The "so-called" PROOF text people use for eternal punishment occurs in Matthew 25:31-46.
  
  "Eternal punishment" in verse 46 in Greek is; "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means "age-lasting corrective chastisement".
  
  
  The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Scripture kolasis always means remedial punishment.
  
  God's punishment is always for man's cure, NOT sadistic torment. Our Father is not a demented cosmic psychopath, though many who are lost in Babylon WANT Him to be.

In addition, when key foundational words in the scriptures; like the Greek word 'aion' and the Hebrew word 'olawm' - both erroneously translated as 'eternal' - are completely misunderstood, the foundation of understanding is destroyed, and ALL subsequent doctrines are skewed.

The words "Eternal, Everlasting, Forever," etc., in the English Bible, appear to signify endless duration. The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by 70 scholars, and hence called "The Septuagint," B.C. 200-300, and the Hebrew word "Olawm" is, in almost all cases, translated Aión, Aiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other. In the New Testament the same words Aión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words, Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc. However, the Greek Aión - Aiónios does not denote endless duration, and endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. There is nothing in the derivation, lexicography or usage of the word to warrant us in understanding it to convey the thought of endless duration.


And then we come to the LAKE of FIRE, which will have to wait until the next post because I've already been scourged for writing "lengthy" posts.

 

[Vanguard]

how about:

Daniel
12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

No mention of hell.

Mark
9:48 where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

The context is actually talking about Gehenna. The NASB includes that cliff note, based off the Koine Greek, in the preceding verse.

Matthew
13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
25:45 Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Again, talking about Gehenna in the second coming. No mention of hell.

Revelation
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

The entire Book of Revelation is prophetic. That part of the chapter is a vision of the judgment of the dead before God. Anyone not accepted into Heaven will go to Gehenna (be absent from the Lord). Some loosely interpret Gehenna as hell, but they are not the same thing. Gehenna has yet to come as the Rapture has yet to take place.

 

[Guest]

this book really opens your eyes, a lot of scriptures about hell in here too..
'23 Minutes In Hell: One Man's Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in that Place of Torment by Bill Wiese'

 

[Vanguard]

this book really opens your eyes, a lot of scriptures about hell in here too..
'23 Minutes In Hell: One Man's Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in that Place of Torment by Bill Wiese'

I've read it.

He has no proof that it was nothing more than a bad dream, nightmare, or night terror. Furthermore, it was a clever way to make the best seller's list and launch a career as a writer, or at least a guest speaker. There's big $$$ in religion. My question is, why would a man who was a Christian for 28 years prior to the event, go to hell?

...and the Scriptures he used were taken out of context.

The fact that he had physical sensations, broken bones, etc. is enough proof for me that it is fiction. I could go into details but it is a waste of time.

 

[Guest]

I've read it.

He has no proof that it was nothing more than a bad dream, nightmare, or night terror. Furthermore, it was a clever way to make the best seller's list and launch a career as a writer, or at least a guest speaker. There's big $$$ in religion. My question is, why would a man who was a Christian for 28 years prior to the event, go to hell?

...and the Scriptures he used were taken out of context.

The fact that he had physical sensations, broken bones, etc. is enough proof for me that it is fiction. I could go into details but it is a waste of time.

fair enough, in the end it is up to the people to believe or not. i don't think he was trying to make money off of religion, that's the first thing a skeptic would think of. i can understand that. is it safe to say god chooses certain people for this horrible journey to warn us of end times, or maybe he wasn't truly saved to begin with before his experience. i believe what happened to him was real. what scriptures was he using out of context. i thought he was quite sincere and accurate when explaining his visions through scripture.

it's not just hell, people have experienced heaven also. this book is just one of many, 'The Boy who Came Back from Heaven: A Remarkable Account of Miracles, Angels, and Life beyond This World'

if people are experiencing heaven wouldn't you think hell exists too. i wouldn't debunk every book and youtube video about people's experiences just yet. how many scriptures of heaven and hell does the bible talk about, isn't it proof enough that it's written in his word. google states that in the king james version the word 'hell' appears 54 times.

The more I research and learn, the more I am convinced that traditional Christian teachings "have it wrong" in some areas. It's almost as if they are going on tradition rather than Scripture. Feel free to disagree.

what tradition are you referring too, if it's in scripture it's in scripture.

There are numerous verses that indicate "hell" but none come out and say it

what does this mean.

 

[tohelp]

Vanguard
You have to study the Bible to get some facts. A reading of the Bible will not do. Now that would mean that you may not find a specific verse with the specific word "hell". But the concept is clear when you study.

Take a look at this verse.

Matt 8:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

The Lord tells us that there are two places we could land after life on this earth. One is "life". The other is "hell fire". Whatever place the "hell fire" is, it is not a desirable place. It is destruction as opposed to "life".

Now study this verse:

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Here "everlasting fire" is mentioned. This also tells us that

• When one enters this place he is there ones and for all
• That place some kind of a punishment place
• This place was prepared for the Devil and his angels
• The ones who go there are cursed

So in conclusion, there is a place of punishment. And it is an everlasting one. The Bible does teach us.

 

[John 8:32]

What did God tell our first parents?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And what did Satan say?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And then what did God say?

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

What is a soul?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

soul:

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Anything that breathes for a living.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The word for life here, referring to the moving creatures in the water is nephesh, soul.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Creature here is nephesh, soul.

Can a soul die?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What is the result of sin? Life in some other place?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death and death for all eternity with no hope of ever living again.

Now...

Here is my challenge: if you find a verse in the Bible that you think says or refers to "hell," bring it up and we'll discuss it objectively and within context.

Here is a passage that is absolutely about what we term hell...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The reward of the wicked is to be burned to ashes and live no more.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

View attachment 2896

 

[John 8:32]

Vanguard
You have to study the Bible to get some facts. A reading of the Bible will not do. Now that would mean that you may not find a specific verse with the specific word "hell". But the concept is clear when you study.

Take a look at this verse.



The Lord tells us that there are two places we could land after life on this earth. One is "life". The other is "hell fire". Whatever place the "hell fire" is, it is not a desirable place. It is destruction as opposed to "life".

Now study this verse:




Here "everlasting fire" is mentioned. This also tells us that

• When one enters this place he is there ones and for all
• That place some kind of a punishment place
• This place was prepared for the Devil and his angels
• The ones who go there are cursed

So in conclusion, there is a place of punishment. And it is an everlasting one. The Bible does teach us.

From Bullinger's appendix 151...

C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Mat_19:16; Mat_25:46. Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30. Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18. Joh_3:15; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_17:2-3. Act_13:48. Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:23. 2Co_4:17-18; 2Co_5:1. 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:19. 2Ti_2:10. Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7. Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14-15. 1Pe_5:10. 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20. Jud_1:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Mat_18:8; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46. Luk_16:9; Luk_18:30. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_12:50. Act_13:46. Rom_6:22; Rom_16:26. Gal_6:8. 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16. 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_1:1 Tit_6:16. Heb_13:20. 2Pe_1:11. Rev_14:6.

Aionios = Age lasting.

Same word used in Jude 7 for eternal...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? The punishment lasts forever, but the fire does not, neither does the torment.

 

[stovebolts]

From Bullinger's appendix 151...

C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Mat_19:16; Mat_25:46. Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30. Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18. Joh_3:15; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_17:2-3. Act_13:48. Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:23. 2Co_4:17-18; 2Co_5:1. 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:19. 2Ti_2:10. Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7. Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14-15. 1Pe_5:10. 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20. Jud_1:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Mat_18:8; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46. Luk_16:9; Luk_18:30. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_12:50. Act_13:46. Rom_6:22; Rom_16:26. Gal_6:8. 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16. 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_1:1 Tit_6:16. Heb_13:20. 2Pe_1:11. Rev_14:6.

Aionios = Age lasting.

Same word used in Jude 7 for eternal...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? The punishment lasts forever, but the fire does not, neither does the torment.

In Jewish thought, there are only 2 ages. The age in which we live, and the age to come.

Ezekiel 16:45-46 You are the daughter of your mother, who loathes her husband and her children; and you are the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and their children: your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite. Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells at your left hand, she and her daughters; and your younger sister, who dwells at your right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

Ezekiel 16:55 Your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate; and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and you and your daughters shall return to your former estate.

Verse 55 speaks of restoration.

 

[Vanguard]

What did God tell our first parents?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

No mention of hell, just death. Is God talking about a physical death or a spiritual? Is this literal, metaphorical or allegorical?

And what did Satan say?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

And then what did God say?

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

What is a soul?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

For starters, no where in Genesis does it say the serpent is Satan. That is an assumed position. No need to discuss this as there is another thread that covers it in-depth. Everything else you chose has nothing to do with hell. There is no mention of it anywhere.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

No one is questioning whether or not we have a soul. However, you also have to understand the context that is being spoken of. A soul separated from God is dead, meaningless, nothing.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What is the result of sin? Life in some other place?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

No mention of hell in that Roman verse. In Matthew, the verse speaks of Gehenna, not hell. Christians have loosely substituted the words and have them under an "umbrella" to mean the same thing. They don't. Plus you have to read them in context, not standing alone.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Book of Malachi is in the OT. Hebrews do not believe in or have a concept of hell. These verses actually speak to the Israelites about their relaxed state concerning religion and social behaviors after the exile. It's all about the...wait for it...CONTEXT!

 

[Vanguard]

Are you (by you I mean anyone reading this) starting to see a theme? Verses are being tossed around to support or indicate a "hell" but none of them actually refer to hell. Death, torment, being absent from God, Gehenna after the second coming, etc. are all verified, but not hell. No where does it say that if you die without having been saved, you will go to [burn in] hell. That is a Christian concept, not based on Scripture, but rather tradition and superstition.

Read the Bible!

 

[Vanguard]

@urk By tradition, I mean teaching what has verbally been taught to you, your parents, their parents, etc. An idea passed down by word of mouth. There's a lot of that going on in churches, and unfortunately a lot of that same stuff is not found in the Bible, OR, whoever is doing the teaching is taking it WAY out of context. Just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean you can cherry pick it and apply it to whatever you want. You have to use verses within context.

As to your last question, there are numerous verses that might hint of a "hell" if you take them out of context and make them apply to the idea. However, no verse anywhere in the Bible says that when you die you will go to hell if you are not saved. I challenge you to find it!

Vanguard
You have to study the Bible to get some facts. A reading of the Bible will not do. Now that would mean that you may not find a specific verse with the specific word "hell". But the concept is clear when you study.

While I can appreciate the humor behind the first two sentences (and those that know me know what I refer to), your last two sentences illustrate the OP. The Bible never says anything about "burning in hell." Like the others, you pick a few verses, take them out of context, and apply them to support a concept. You're absolutely right about needing to study the Bible, getting facts, and not just reading over the verses. People need to learn how to understand the Bible in the manner in which it was written. Once you take something out of context, you've lost, and you can become lost.

 

[Guest]

Verses are being tossed around to support or indicate a "hell" but none of them actually refer to hell.

yes they do refer to hell, the word 'hell' is the word 'hell'!! what more are you looking for! in the king james version the word 'hell' appears 54 times, what do you mean they don't refer to hell. that doesn't make sense.

Death, torment, being absent from God, Gehenna after the second coming, etc. are all verified, but not hell. No where does it say that if you die without having been saved, you will go to [burn in] hell. That is a Christian concept, not based on Scripture, but rather tradition and superstition. Read the Bible!

John 3:3 -do you know what born again means, what place is absent of the kingdom of god. you are only seeing what you wanna see.
Psalms 9:17 - the wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget god.
Revelation 1:18 - i am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, i am alive for evermore, amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

there is a difference between a religious so-called christian and a born again prophet christian, do you know what the difference is.

who are the scriptures referring too when they say the words him, wicked, my soul, them, he, his soul, the eyes of man, yet thou, we, your, ye,
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in ther dwellings, and among them.
Prov 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves

 

[Osgiliath]

Aionios = Age lasting.

Same word used in Jude 7 for eternal...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today? The punishment lasts forever, but the fire does not, neither does the torment.

Excellent posts John. As you, Vanguard, and I have thoroughly demonstrated, aion, aionion means "age-lasting" as in "kolasis aionion," ["age-lasting corrective chastisement"] (Matthew 25:46) - erroneously translated "Eternal Punishment."


However, as far as your quote from Jude, we must be careful how we phrase "the punishment lasts forever" because the Scriptures say otherwise concerning Sodom:

Ezekiel 16:55 "When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, RETURN to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you [Judah] and your daughters will return to your former state."



So, at some point, even Sodom will RETURN TO HER FORMER STATE, along with Samaria. And THEN (after Sodom and Samaria), Judah will return to her former state.

 

[Sinthesis]

Excellent posts John. As you, Vanguard, and I have thoroughly demonstrated, aion, aionion means "age-lasting" as in "kolasis aionion," ["age-lasting corrective chastisement"] (Matthew 25:46) - erroneously translated "Eternal Punishment."

Then are you looking forward to only "age-lasting" life?

 

[Osgiliath]

yes they do refer to hell, the word 'hell' is the word 'hell'!! what more are you looking for! in the king james version the word 'hell' appears 54 times, what do you mean they don't refer to hell. that doesn't make sense.

Read post #4 carefully.

Originally Posted by Osgiliath,

From Post #4



HELL is an Anglo-Saxon verb 'hele' which meant to hide, conceal, or bury. The word HELL itself is not a translation of another word - it was added to the Scriptures.

1. "Sheol" is the only Hebrew word translated "hell" in the Old Testament, and this word occurs 65 times. It is translated "hell" 31 times, "grave" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in the King James Bible.
   
   
   
2. "Hades" is derived from the Greek verb "horao." "Horao" means "I am seeing." The Greeks then prefixed the word with "a" (alpha) which negates "to see" thus coining the noun "Hades" meaning "unseen." "Sheol" and "Hades" mean "unseen." These two words do not describe what the English theological word "hell" means to convey.
   
   
   
3. "Gehenna" occurs 12 times in the New Testament; 11 times in the Gospels and one time in the Epistle of James. Jesus used "Gehenna" 7 times. Some of the occurrences of "Gehenna" are in parallel passages, that is, they refer to the same event. "Gehenna" is the Greek form of the Hebrew "ge-hinnom." It literally means "valley of Hinnom" Sometimes it is referred to as the "valley of the sons of Hinnom." In the Old Testament "Tophet" also refers to this place. "Gehenna" is a valley that lays on the west and southwest of Jerusalem.
   
   In the valley of Hinnom, Israel caused their children to be PASSED THROUGH THE FIRE as a burnt offering to a god who came to be known as Molech - a practice which God DETESTED.
   
   This begs the question: If God detested such a practice, why would God do the very same thing Himself.....PASS HIS CHILDREN THROUGH THE FIRE.... and for ETERNITY?
   
   
   
   
4. "Tartarus" occurs one single time in the entire Bible and it is found in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the place where sinning angels (messengers) are reserved unto judgment.

The English word "Hell" occurs 54 times in the King James Bible, and is a translation of 4 Hebrew and Greek words. Not one of the words has a meaning even closely related to the meaning theologians have given the English word "Hell."

• The "so-called" PROOF text people use for eternal punishment occurs in Matthew 25:31-46.
  
  "Eternal punishment" in verse 46 in Greek is; "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means "age-lasting corrective chastisement".
  
  The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Scripture kolasis always means remedial punishment.

• The words "Eternal, Everlasting, Forever," etc., in the English Bible, appear to signify endless duration. The original Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, by 70 scholars, and hence called "The Septuagint," B.C. 200-300, and the Hebrew word "Olawm" is, in almost all cases, translated Aión, Aiónios etc., (Aíwv, Aíwvios,) so that the two words may be regarded as synonymous with each other.
  
  In the New Testament the same words Aión and its derivatives, are the original Greek of the English words, Eternal, Everlasting, Forever, etc. However, the Greek Aión - Aiónios does not denote endless duration, and endless punishment is not taught in the Bible. There is nothing in the derivation, lexicography or usage of the word to warrant us in understanding it to convey the thought of endless duration.