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DRS,
By my questions are a part of soul sleep topic. How do we have a relationship with Jesus in the third heaven without a brain, arms, legs, eyes and ears? :shrug

"By my questions are a part of soul sleep topic. How do we have a relationship with Jesus in the third heaven without a brain, arms, legs, eyes and ears? :shrug"​

This question deals with your presupposition about what happens after death and the need for brain, arms, legs, eyes and ears.

Jesus did not have your problem when he dealt with the rich man and Lazarus after death in Luke 16: 19-31 (ESV) and their conscious existence after death.
 
(Post deleted, ToS 2.7, Obadiah)

2.7: All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.
 
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OzSpen - By Grace - JLB This is a good point. I might be changing my beliefs soon. Hmmmm...........

2nd Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Paul said to be absent from the body means to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD. If our soul is unconscious when our body dies, then how can we be “absent” from the body? The Bible teaches that we will be with the Lord while absent from our body. Clearly, the Word of God teaches that the soul separates from the body at death. Amen!

Psalm 9:17 quickly silences such speculation as unbiblical rubbish... "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalm 9:17 would make absolutely no sense at all if hell is merely "the grave." Why would the Bible warn that the wicked and the righteous go to the SAME place? Clearly, the Bible is warning that the wicked and those who forget God will be PUNISHED in Hellfire.

I guess I needed to do some studying myself. - DRS81
 
OzSpen - By Grace - JLB This is a good point. I might be changing my beliefs soon. Hmmmm...........

2nd Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Paul said to be absent from the body means to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD. If our soul is unconscious when our body dies, then how can we be “absent” from the body? The Bible teaches that we will be with the Lord while absent from our body. Clearly, the Word of God teaches that the soul separates from the body at death. Amen!

Psalm 9:17 quickly silences such speculation as unbiblical rubbish... "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalm 9:17 would make absolutely no sense at all if hell is merely "the grave." Why would the Bible warn that the wicked and the righteous go to the SAME place? Clearly, the Bible is warning that the wicked and those who forget God will be PUNISHED in Hellfire.

I guess I needed to do some studying myself. - DRS81


You are better at studying yourself, and relying on what the scriptures really do say, than letting the commentary dictate to you what other men, who may or may not have the Holy Spirit believe.

The Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all Truth.

By saying, All Truth, we are taught that one part of the truth may not necessarily be All Truth.

I see in part, but "we" have the mind of Christ.


JLB
 
You are better at studying yourself, and relying on what the scriptures really do say, than letting the commentary dictate to you what other men, who may or may not have the Holy Spirit believe.

The Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all Truth.

By saying, All Truth, we are taught that one part of the truth may not necessarily be All Truth.

I see in part, but "we" have the mind of Christ.


JLB

2 Cor 5:8 kinda makes sense. If our souls are sleeping as some might say, then how can we be absent from the body like Paul said. It's starting to make sense.
 
OzSpen - By Grace - JLB This is a good point. I might be changing my beliefs soon. Hmmmm...........

2nd Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Paul said to be absent from the body means to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD. If our soul is unconscious when our body dies, then how can we be “absent” from the body? The Bible teaches that we will be with the Lord while absent from our body. Clearly, the Word of God teaches that the soul separates from the body at death. Amen!

Psalm 9:17 quickly silences such speculation as unbiblical rubbish... "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalm 9:17 would make absolutely no sense at all if hell is merely "the grave." Why would the Bible warn that the wicked and the righteous go to the SAME place? Clearly, the Bible is warning that the wicked and those who forget God will be PUNISHED in Hellfire.

I guess I needed to do some studying myself. - DRS81
Don't be so quick to change your mind, and do use many Bible versions and commentaries in your study. No where is it stated or implied we will have an interim body. There are problems with every position, so take your time and do a thorough study.
 
Don't be so quick to change your mind, and do use many Bible versions and commentaries in your study. No where is it stated or implied we will have an interim body. There are problems with every position, so take your time and do a thorough study.

Do you know the answer to these questions then..

2 Cor 5:8 - If our soul is unconscious when our body dies, then how can we be “absent” from the body?
Psalm 9:17 / SHEOL - Why would the Bible warn that the wicked and the righteous go to the SAME place?
 
Do you know the answer to these questions then..

2 Cor 5:8 - If our soul is unconscious when our body dies, then how can we be “absent” from the body?
Psalm 9:17 / SHEOL - Why would the Bible warn that the wicked and the righteous go to the SAME place?
Has it been settled then as to just what the soul is and if it even exists after death? The first use of "soul" in Scripture is to the uniting of the body and breath of God; it is the "living being". This could mean that our "soul" simply ceases to exist at death. Or it could be that our souls are actually something different, and they may sleep, but that sleeping may not be with the body.

As to your question about Pslam 9:17, this is why you need to consult other versions and commentaries. The word there should not be translated as "hell," but rather "Sheol." They are not one and the same. From the ESV: Psa 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

My only point was to not be so hasty to change your views, especially based solely on an Internet forum discussion. There are many great resources out there by learned, Godly men that would be of use.
 
Has it been settled then as to just what the soul is and if it even exists after death? The first use of "soul" in Scripture is to the uniting of the body and breath of God; it is the "living being". This could mean that our "soul" simply ceases to exist at death. Or it could be that our souls are actually something different, and they may sleep, but that sleeping may not be with the body.

But this scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies we are present with the Lord. To be present is to be aware.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJB)

As to your question about Pslam 9:17, this is why you need to consult other versions and commentaries. The word there should not be translated as "hell," but rather "Sheol." They are not one and the same. From the ESV: Psa 9:17 The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Ok, but if Sheol is simply the grave and believers and nonbelievers rest in Sheol, then why does it say that only the wicked will go there.
 
But this scripture says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When we leave our bodies we are present with the Lord. To be present is to be aware.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJB)
Firstly, this does away with the previous argument by another which is what I was initially addressing, namely, that there is no such thing as an interim body between death and resurrection. That was something you said was just an opinion, and it remains that way. Secondly, I am not convinced that this verse actually means that at the moment of death we leave the body and go be with Jesus. It could mean that but it does not necessarily mean that. The wording is such that Paul is not making an absolute statement of the way things actually are, but rather simply stating that while we live here on Earth, we're away from the Lord.

Not to mention that elsewhere in the NT, dead believers are referred to as sleeping. When one is sleeping, they do not notice the passage of time. The passage of ten thousand years would seem like a blink of an eye to someone who was asleep. This passage could simply be speaking of the future resurrection.

Ok, but if Sheol is simply the grave and believers and nonbelievers rest in Sheol, then why does it say that only the wicked will go there.
Pslam 9:17 doesn't say that only the wicked will go there, nor that there is rest. Consider Eccl 9:10, "10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going. " (NASB) Psalm 9:17 could simply be speaking of the cutting off of wicked people. Most words have several meanings and nuances in the way they are used, so don't be too quick to stick to one meaning and think that you have understood what was said. That goes for all of us.

Again, the whole point is study thoroughly each and every position on this matter, including all verses and passages that are relevant. Do not base your beliefs on Internet discussions, particularly where not all of the relevant passages have been taken into account. Two verses do not a doctrine make.
 
Free I liked your responses, so I expanded my reading and found this in 2 Cor 5:1-10..

1. Paul makes a comparison in verse 6 and 8. (2 Cor 5:6 Home in the body, away from the Lord/2 Cor 5:8 Away from the body and at home with the Lord.)
1. Paul is using the word "home" to describe our body??? Wo, wait a minute..:chin That changes everything! :)
2. Also notice verse 10 mentions the judgment seat of Christ. This is at the first resurrection.
3. Finally, notice in verse 10 it also says we are not judged for what we did in the body UNTIL the judgment seat of Christ, the first resurrection.

Very interesting.

2 Cor 5:1-10 Awaiting the New Body
1For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

The passage of ten thousand years would seem like a blink of an eye to someone who was asleep. This passage could simply be speaking of the future resurrection.

That is a really good point. Someone who's been dead without consciousness is not aware of time. For example, Paul has been dead for 2,000 years, but the first resurrection will seem to him like it's in a blink of an eye. Excellent points Free.
 
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Ok, but if Sheol is simply the grave and believers and nonbelievers rest in Sheol, then why does it say that only the wicked will go there.

DRS,

That is not what Sheol (an OT Hebrew word) states.

The following examples of the use of Sheol use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:
  1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.
  2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).
  3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.
  4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed. It was not just for the unbelieving wicked.
  5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).
  6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Vol 4 on Job, p. 52).
  7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.
  8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccl 9:10, etc.)
  9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:
a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.​

From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).

Not once does Sheol in the OT mean non-existence or annihilation.

Oz
 
From my monitor, it seems as there may be two completely different definitions of "reasonable" in use here.

DEFINITION 1:

DRS81 puts forth his reasons for believing in a doctrine, such as the impermanence/non existence of hell. These reasons come from two sources:
.
a) His/her( I do believe that the poster is a woman) thoughts about the nature of things in the universe, and perhaps a "soft view" of the justice of God
b) Any sort of Scripture, no matter how unrelated (we say "out of context) it may be to the matter at hand.​
.
Therefore, she is stating her reasons, but she is not revealing the presuppositions behind those reasons. One of those presuppositions may be that the love of God is such that it will not harm any human, created in the image of God. In other words, it is an emotional approach.

DEFINITION 2:

Dare I say "ours"? I see reason differently than that the first definition because I see it in a systematic series of thoughts whereby one thought is a natural derivative of the preceding one. Such is the case when one is trained in rhetoric philosophy or systematic theology. It is an academic approach. I posit that those who believe this, (definition 2) are most likely favoring a Reformed view of theology. For someone who has an "emotional" presuppositional view of God, this line upon line, layer upon layer approach is as cuddly as a brick wall.

For someone who "loves the brick wall" this solid structure is a source of comfort because it is immutable (never changing), and its solid form is representative of the God who makes and creates covenants with His people, sayhing many times in the OT, "I will be their God, and they shall be my people". The presuppositions behind this "brick wall" theology are both the immutability and predictability of God.

a) Immutability means "never changing" , so when we read about choosing who will become His people iit is a comfort to know that God will never change His miknd about our effectual calling and sealing our election before the foundation of the Earth (Ephesians 1:4)
b) Similar to immutability is "predictability", but its foundation is the sovereignty of God. Those believing that know that God will NEVER act in any way that is contrary to His intrinsic nature. That is why instead of the TULIP, the Arminian flower is the daisy: ("He loves, He loves me not...:rofl2) So there is no such thing as a capricious God. When we read "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" we can go to Hebrews 12:16 and see that the reason behind that is that Esau was a profane man.
Is either of the above approaches better than the other? I say no. BUT I do affirm that it is necessary to make an effort to understand from where the other person comes, and more important, it should be expected that one person should not attempt to "back the other into a corner" because that engenders a hostile and personal attack from the other. Instead, we need to build bridges of understanding, knowing in advance that we may never meet in the middle, but we will neither burn a bridge to another who makes a claim that Jesus is their Savior.

However, in dealing with Mormons and other cultists, it is important to (Edited, ToS 2.7. All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc. Obadiah.) because in doing so, we may snatch a log from the all-0consuming fire. In that case we are doing evangelism, and not discussing Christianity. But that is an altogether different issue than is here at present..

By Grace,

I don't know why this lengthy post was necessary. By 'rational' I mean logical. Logical fallacies are dealing with logical errors in thinking. We can't have a logical discussion when a person uses logical fallacies.

I do not consider this to be an academic approach but I was alerted to it by how I saw teachers (whether in church or university) violate such logic in their sermons or uni teaching. I'm indeed grateful for the help I received in reading Norman L Geisler & Ronald M Brooks 1990. Come, Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House. This is a Christian exposition on logical thinking.
 
Firstly, this does away with the previous argument by another which is what I was initially addressing, namely, that there is no such thing as an interim body between death and resurrection. That was something you said was just an opinion, and it remains that way. Secondly, I am not convinced that this verse actually means that at the moment of death we leave the body and go be with Jesus. It could mean that but it does not necessarily mean that. The wording is such that Paul is not making an absolute statement of the way things actually are, but rather simply stating that while we live here on Earth, we're away from the Lord.

Not to mention that elsewhere in the NT, dead believers are referred to as sleeping. When one is sleeping, they do not notice the passage of time. The passage of ten thousand years would seem like a blink of an eye to someone who was asleep. This passage could simply be speaking of the future resurrection.


Pslam 9:17 doesn't say that only the wicked will go there, nor that there is rest. Consider Eccl 9:10, "10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going. " (NASB) Psalm 9:17 could simply be speaking of the cutting off of wicked people. Most words have several meanings and nuances in the way they are used, so don't be too quick to stick to one meaning and think that you have understood what was said. That goes for all of us.

Again, the whole point is study thoroughly each and every position on this matter, including all verses and passages that are relevant. Do not base your beliefs on Internet discussions, particularly where not all of the relevant passages have been taken into account. Two verses do not a doctrine make.

Free,

What is meant by “sleep” at death?
The Bible sometimes describes the state of death as “sleep” or “falling asleep” in verses such as Matt. 9:24; 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess 4:13; 5:10. Let’s take 3 samples from these verses:

1. Matt. 9:24. The ruler’s daughter had died (see 9:18) and before Jesus raised her from the dead, Jesus said, “‘Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him.”

2. Acts 13:36. “For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers . . .”

3. First Corinthians 15:20. “But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”

This sounds like the soul sleep position is signed, sealed and delivered. If believers go to sleep at death, surely there is no need for further discussion! It would be a danger to jump to such a conclusion without examination of further biblical evidence.

There are many words in many languages (including English) that have a number of unrelated meanings. We see this with the language of ‘sleep’. Webster’s dictionary defines it three ways, one of which is: ‘a natural, regularly recurring condition of rest for the body and mind, during which there is little or no conscious thoughts, sensation, or movement’ (Webster 1978:1706). However there are many different meanings to ‘sleep’ when statements such as these are made:
(1) My foot went to sleep (meaning that sensation was lost in my foot;
(2) I’ll sleep on it, which means that I will think about the issue and try to come up with an answer later;
(3) My children’s friends are coming for a sleepover, i.e. the children’s friends will come to sleep at our place for the night and there is likely to be a long night of talking, playing games, and favourite party food;
(4) That couple is sleeping together, meaning they are having sex;
(5) There are sleeper cells in this country, which is an indication that there are terrorists awaiting their opportunities to strike;
(6) I had to put my dog to sleep, meaning that I took the dog to the vet and he euthanised (killed) him/her (many of these ideas suggested by Dr John Roller n d, ‘Soul sleep’; the article is no longer online).

New Testament scholar, Dr. N. T. Wright, wrote that “when ancient Jews, pagans and Christians used the word ‘sleep’ to denote death, they were using a metaphor to refer to a concrete state of affairs.We sometimes use the same language the other way round: a heavy sleeper is ‘dead to the world’” (Wright 2003, p. xix). This is in Wright's extensive study on The Resurrection of the Son of God.

When my father died suddenly from a heart attack in 1973 and I saw him in his coffin, he looked as though he was asleep. This is how we are to understand the language of sleep associated with death in the Bible. “Sleep” of the body is a metaphor that refers to death.

Remember the story of Jesus and Lazarus in John 11:5-44? Of Lazarus, it was said that he “has fallen asleep” and Jesus was going “to awaken him” (v. 11). Jesus was very clear what he had meant by “sleep.” “Now Jesus had spoken of his death” (v. 13). “Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus has died’” (v. 14). Jesus explains further: “Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (v. 26).

So, in this situation we have this kind of language used: Lazarus died and he looked as though he was asleep but the truth was that, because Lazarus believed in Jesus, Lazarus would never die. That sounds paradoxical. He died but he would never die! This means that the believer who dies physically and appears to be asleep (a metaphor), does not die because his unseen soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord, thus meaning that the believer never really dies. At death, the believer’s real being (his/her soul) goes into the presence of the Lord (see 2 Cor. 5:8 ESV).

Oz
 
You are better at studying yourself, and relying on what the scriptures really do say, than letting the commentary dictate to you what other men, who may or may not have the Holy Spirit believe.

The Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all Truth.

By saying, All Truth, we are taught that one part of the truth may not necessarily be All Truth.

I see in part, but "we" have the mind of Christ.

JLB

JLB,

Please tell me how, following your suggested methodology here, you are going to know the meaning of ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι.

Oz
 
JLB,

Please tell me how, following your suggested methodology here, you are going to know the meaning of ἐκδημῆσαι and ἐνδημῆσαι.

Oz

Show me how knowing the meaning of these Greek words produces faith.

...anything not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

Being led by the Spirit in our study, which is to say, allowing the anointing to teach us and gives us understanding is God's way, as it was with Adam, and Abraham, and Peter.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 1:27


If the Holy Spirit leads a person to become a Greek scholar then that person should perfect what The Spirit gives him to do.

Jesus said it this way -

16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


...on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.


Can you tell me what is the rock that Jesus will build His Church? [Hint] You don't have to know any Greek words to know this answer.



JLB
 
By Grace,

I don't know why this lengthy post was necessary. By 'rational' I mean logical. Logical fallacies are dealing with logical errors in thinking. We can't have a logical discussion when a person uses logical fallacies.

Agreed. However, I also identifed the many logical fallacies I saw, but they were ignored or not understood, so I needed to try another approach

I do not consider this to be an academic approach but I was alerted to it by how I saw teachers (whether in church or university) violate such logic in their sermons or uni teaching. I'm indeed grateful for the help I received in reading Norman L Geisler & Ronald M Brooks 1990. Come, Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House. This is a Christian exposition on logical thinking.

My post was a compare-and-contrast exercise. Because it seemed to me that DRS81 was following a logic of her own, I attempted to understand that.

Then due to my training, I demonstrated the manner in which I think and the tools which I used. In doing so, I know that I will never change the position of DRS81 because she is so entrenched in her way of thinking, which is perhaps preconditioned on an over emphasis of the love of God. Therefore, I was actually "posting beyond her". That is because there are lurkers here, and I was attempting to reach them, so that they could understand the reasons for her thoughts as well as the reasons for my thoughts.

What I was hoping for is to not seem combative--which I can be prone to do, and leave a door open for discussion about the way she studies Scripture.
 
Show me how knowing the meaning of these Greek words produces faith.

...anything not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

Being led by the Spirit in our study, which is to say, allowing the anointing to teach us and gives us understanding is God's way, as it was with Adam, and Abraham, and Peter.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 1:27


If the Holy Spirit leads a person to become a Greek scholar then that person should perfect what The Spirit gives him to do.

Jesus said it this way -

16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

...on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Can you tell me what is the rock that Jesus will build His Church? [Hint] You don't have to know any Greek words to know this answer.

JLB

JLB,

You asked, 'Show me how knowing the meaning of these Greek words produces faith'.

Would you please show me how anyone can read the NT in an English translation without someone having the knowledge of Greek grammar to be able to translate into English? I would not be able to read the English Bible to know what produces faith if it were not for those who engaged in the arduous task of learning Greek and translating from Greek to English.

You rightly stated, 'anything not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23'. How would you know that statement in the English Bible is correct without someone knowing how to translate from Greek to English?

Why is learning Greek grammar NOT from faith? Are you saying that my learning Greek conjugations and declensions so that I can translate Greek into English is not something in which a faithful Christian engages?

You stated:

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 1:27

This reference number seems to be a typo and should be 1 John 2:27 as there are only 10 verses in ch 1. So what is 'the anointing' in your understanding? This word is used only twice in the entire NT, 1 John 2:20, 27. By the way, there is no definite article, 'the', in the Greek so it refers to 'an anointment' - chrisma - from the Holy One (1 John 2:20 ESV). What makes you think that this 'anointment from the Holy One' is related to your statement, 'If the Holy Spirit leads a person to become a Greek scholar then that person should perfect what The Spirit gives him to do'. This is related to God's gifts and not to 'an anointment' that all Christians receive from the Holy One.

All believers having 'an anointment' from the Holy One cannot clash with this exhortation from God: 'Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NASB).

Oz
 
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When my father died suddenly from a heart attack in 1973 and I saw him in his coffin, he looked as though he was asleep. This is how we are to understand the language of sleep associated with death in the Bible. “Sleep” of the body is a metaphor that refers to death.

Remember the story of Jesus and Lazarus in John 11:5-44? Of Lazarus, it was said that he “has fallen asleep” and Jesus was going “to awaken him” (v. 11). Jesus was very clear what he had meant by “sleep.” “Now Jesus had spoken of his death” (v. 13). “Then Jesus told them plainly, ‘Lazarus has died’” (v. 14). Jesus explains further: “Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die” (v. 26).

So, in this situation we have this kind of language used: Lazarus died and he looked as though he was asleep but the truth was that, because Lazarus believed in Jesus, Lazarus would never die. That sounds paradoxical. He died but he would never die! This means that the believer who dies physically and appears to be asleep (a metaphor), does not die because his unseen soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord, thus meaning that the believer never really dies. At death, the believer’s real being (his/her soul) goes into the presence of the Lord (see 2 Cor. 5:8 ESV).

Oz
I am well aware that "sleep" is a metaphor for death. The significance is that it is used only of believers, because they will be raised to new life at a later time. So it simply cannot refer to just the appearance of one who is dead, as this would pertain to the unbeliever as well.

In this case, if one takes Jesus' words, "everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die," to mean that the "unseen soul goes immediately into the presence of the Lord," they are reading into the passage something that isn't there. Looking at the context:

Joh 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Joh 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (ESV)

Verses 23 and 24 clearly have to do with rising again, being resurrected. Jesus responds to Martha with "I am the resurrection and the life." What follows in the rest of verse 25 and in verse 26 is based on that statement. We simply cannot take verse 26 as referring to an "unseen soul [that] goes immediately into the presence of the Lord" because Jesus had just said that "whoever believes in me, though he die, yet he shall live." The two verses would be in contradiction if this was the case.

So verse 26 could mean at least a couple of things. It could be a reference to his return, that those alive at his coming who are believers will never see death. Or, it could simply be that the Greek shows something a little different--"shall never die" is better rendered, "shall not die forever," or "shall not die to the age." The emphasis is once again that death is temporary and that one will be resurrected.

As for 2 Cor 5:8, I addressed that previously. It says nothing that immediately at death one's soul goes into the presence of the Lord. That, again, is to read something into the text that isn't there. Paul is simply stating a preference of being with the Lord.
 
Agreed. However, I also identifed the many logical fallacies I saw, but they were ignored or not understood, so I needed to try another approach

My post was a compare-and-contrast exercise. Because it seemed to me that DRS81 was following a logic of her own, I attempted to understand that.

Then due to my training, I demonstrated the manner in which I think and the tools which I used. In doing so, I know that I will never change the position of DRS81 because she is so entrenched in her way of thinking, which is perhaps preconditioned on an over emphasis of the love of God. Therefore, I was actually "posting beyond her". That is because there are lurkers here, and I was attempting to reach them, so that they could understand the reasons for her thoughts as well as the reasons for my thoughts.

What I was hoping for is to not seem combative--which I can be prone to do, and leave a door open for discussion about the way she studies Scripture.

By Grace,

I thought you also were trying to make a statement about (disagreeing with) my approach as well - or particularly. Is that true?

Oz
 

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