Lovely,
Christians against OSAS are saying that eternal security is for Christians who are faithful to the Lord until the end. It is that simple, my friend. People are making such complicated doctrine to confuse and being stumbling block to new and weak believers. They should stop this nonsense.
Judas was saved by Jesus, had the new birth, the apostolic ministry, the Spirit, etc. He then let temptation and earthly desires ruin him. He slid back from continuing in the words of Christ; therefore, was not a disciple any longer (Jn.8:31-34). I written out all of the evidence of Judas being saved, then being condemned to go to his place (Acts 1:24-26), just like I had written out about King Saul if you want that, but I think it was on the locked thread, also.Originally Posted by Good News Brown
7) Why would you count Judas as a backslider?
4) I remember briefly discussing King Saul with you on a thread that was shortly thereafter locked. You gave very precise reasoning as to why King Saul had been a genuine saved believer, and his very drastic fall which brought you to the conclusion that he lost his salvation. I don't remember you addressing (the spirit of) Samuel's message to Saul in 1 Samuel 28:19.
I didn't address the proof that it was not Samuel speaking to Saul, but rather a familiar spirit, b/c that had nothing to do w/ the thread. But if you want that proof, then I can PM it, or you can start a thread.
Thanks
1 Timothy 1:19-20
Example of Hymenaeus and Alexander
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Lets jump right into this one by seeing what the Bible has to say about those who hold the faith in good conscience to see if it is the least bit possible for these words to be said of unsaved people. Then, we’ll examine if it is at all possible to put away your faith, or to shipwreck it and still be saved. After that, we’ll learn why one would be delivered unto Satan who once possessed saving grace in Christ Jesus. After this, there should be no room for error concerning the doctrine of eternal security.
“Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience (1 Tim.3:9).” “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end (Heb.3:6).” “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (Heb.3:12-14);” Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (Heb.4:11).” “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised(Heb.10:23).”
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb.10:26-29)?” “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul (Heb.10:36-39).”
These are just a few of the hundreds of verses that say the same thing. Faith is something to be held onto. Billions of people today have faith in millions of different things and ideas, but when someone in Scripture is said to have faith, it always means the faith that is in Christ, which gives the saving grace needed to be free of sin and born again. These two men, Hymenaeus and Alexander had this faith at a point in time and were following in obedience according to the gospel plan. If they were not following faithful for a time, then it would have never been written of them that they had a good conscience.
Receiving the Word, even for a moment, brings the new birth (2 Cor.5:17-18). Read the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:18, Mark 4:13, and Luke 8:11. Hymenaeus and Alexander are either represented by the seed sown in stony ground that endured for a while, but had no root, or the seed that was received in the thorns, but was choked and died by the cares of this world (James 4:4). They each had genuine salvation. That can’t be intelligently rejected by anyone, not even by the most astute theologian who holds the doctrine of eternal security as gospel. They believed and held the faith in good conscience. What could be clearer?
It’s not stated with any detail, but it is apparent that they went astray somewhere. Our only real clues are in Paul’s second letter to Timothy. Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:17-18 that Hymenaeus erred concerning the truth by saying the resurrection had already happened. Alexander was first mentioned in Acts 19:33 and also wrote about again in 2 Timothy. 2 Timothy 4:14-15 says, “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.”
They’re said to have put away and shipwrecked their faith in 1 Timothy 1:19. ‘Put away’ means to reject, thrust from, and cast away. You can’t wreck your faith if you never had it. You can’t cast something away if you don’t have it in your possession. If one does this, do they still have faith that will save their soul? Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers and false teachers who overthrew the faith of others, though they once had a saving faith in Christ. They were now away from Truth (Jn.14:6), ready to suffer the eternal punishment of hell, and leading as many people with them as possible. Be careful whom you put on a pedestal and are listening to everything they say as if it were gospel. I challenge everyone to look up all the references I place in this book to test every word out of my mouth, and onto these pages. Make sure they are God’s words and not man’s.
The following passage is fitting concerning our two examples from this passage. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. Thus, we not only have references to many lost salvations from faulty teaching, but also a record of specific names of men (Heb.6:4-9).”
The reason Paul says he gives the rebels over to Satan, though they were always confirmed to have been redeemed people, is so that they might hit rock bottom and come back to the Lord. If you condone a professing Christian’s sin or rebellion, then you aren’t doing them any good. This is the reason for the judgment and no one is excused from it that has gone astray and ceased to repent. God is no respecter of person in judgment (2 Chr.19:7; 1 Pt.1:17). Giving someone over to Satan is never said of a person who has never been renewed by the blood of the Lamb (Rom.3:25). The reason is because the condemned are already the devil’s (1 Jn.3:8-10). You can’t condemn the condemned. It’s always done out of love, though it seems brutal, but it’s the only thing that’ll give them a chance to be born again, again. It was done to the man in sexual immorality in 1 Corinthians 5, and it worked as seen in 2 Corinthians 2.
As you can see from the example in 1 Timothy 5:11-15, the young widows were saved once, grew cold of their experience with Christ, and were said to have turned aside after Satan due to the damnation of their souls they now had for casting off their first faith. So, the language used of giving someone over to Satan is really something that had already happened by rejecting the commands of the gospel program. Our job is to have no fellowship with them so they’ll not be confused of their destination if they stay their course (1 Cor.5). Of course, this action is only to be taken after you warn your brother and they still refuse to submit to the Father’s will (Jas.5:19-20; 1 Pt.4:17-19; Jude 23). Thus, we not only have references to many lost salvations from these teacher’s flawed teachings, but also a record of specific names of men for very specific examples.
2 Timothy 2:17-18
Example of Hymenaeus and Philetus
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
And their message will spread like gangrene; meaning, false doctrines will eat the life out of a soul until eternal death is reaped. Though Hymenaeus and Philetus are the ones teaching false doctrines, it should be understood by this point that false doctrines also come from demons (1 Tim.4:1). They’re in bad company to say the least. Like demons, Hymenaeus and Philetus have departed from the Truth. They were teaching that the resurrection has past already and they overthrow the faith of some. Maybe you would’ve never thought it too important to get every detail correct as long as you believe in Jesus, this is why it is a big deal to teach correct doctrine, because the false doctrine spreads and makes others to believe lies and have their faith be overthrown. That’s why we’re commanded to study the Bible, so we will interpret it correctly and not believe every word taught to us, lest it isn’t the truth and we are led astray (2 Tim.2:15).
The word ‘overthrow’ is translated from the Greek word ‘anatrepo,’ meaning to overturn, destroy, and subvert. This is the same word used in Titus 1:11 when Paul is talking about vain and deceiving preachers who were subverting whole houses. Clearly this Scripture is saying that what people say and teach can destroy the faith of others. This is not ‘any other thing’ that can separate us from the love of God as referred to in Romans 8:35-39. It is still the personal fault of the one who allows their faith to be overthrown. Then when that happens, Scripture implies here that they are in sin, so it’s still that person’s personal sin that causes the loss of salvation.
I write this because of what the very next verse says (2:19): “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: The Lord knows those who are His,” and “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” You see sin is the issue. A Christian who abides in Christ, living and walking in the Spirit, stays set free from sin (Jn.8:31-34; Rom.8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; 6:7-8). This Scripture here is the basis of Christianity. But the doctrine of eternal security says you are always saved no matter what. But no place in Scripture does it imply that.
Even if these two men never had salvation, this passage still proves that many others had lost theirs. But we can prove that Hymenaeus was soundly saved at one point by having the grace coming from believing in, and following after, Jesus. Verse 17 is the only mention of Philetus, so we can only assume that he was of the same mindset as his companion. Hymenaeus is spoken of in Paul’s first letter to Timothy (1 Tim.1:19-20). Verse 19 of that passage states without doubt that Hymenaeus held the faith while maintaining a good conscience. This meant that he received the gospel of Christ and was following and abiding, as he should, lest he would have had a bad conscience spoken of him. No unsaved man can hold the faith in a pure conscience (1 Tim.3:9; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 4:11; 6:4-9; 10:23, 26-29, 36-39).
Then, in the same verse (1 Tim.1:19), he is said to have put away and shipwrecked his faith. ‘Put away’ means to reject, thrust from, and cast away. You can’t wreck your faith if you never had it. You can’t cast something away if you don’t have it in your possession. If one does this, do they still have faith that will save their soul? Hymenaeus, for certain, was a blasphemer and a false teacher who overthrew the faith of others, though he once had a saving faith in Christ. Thus, we not only have references to many lost salvations from faulty teaching, but also a record of specific names of men.
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The reason they didn't seem like overcomers and they don't seem to fit 1 Jn.5:1-5, is b/c they didn't continue in the Word (Jn.8:31-34), so thet weren't overcomers. Even if the evidence doesn't persuade you concerning these men, as ever been saved, then it should be clear they they destroyed the faith of genuine believers, causing them to err and their faith was overthrown. To continue on and believe that "the truly saved" cannot lose salvation would be a mystery to me.
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1 John 5:1-5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
This passage explains the doctrine of Jesus Christ and simply says that if you overcome the world then you are born of God. But here’s the kicker, and what people have difficulty with; if you don’t overcome the world, being that of the system of sin and corruption that presently rules this age, then you’ll be damned for eternity, even if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The gospel is simple; believing in Christ is required for salvation, as is obedience to the gospel. Many believe, but few of them follow. Many practice the same moral lifestyle as a genuine Christian, but they may believe in another faith. Without the mixing of faith and works, no one will remain justified (Jas.2:21-26). This is how you overcome the world; keep the commandments of God. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (Gal.6:7-8).”
Believe the words of the Lord. This is the redemptive work of Christ that you have been taught: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Col.1:14).” This is what justifies you, but half the truth has been blinded to most of you. The forgiveness of our sins is just the past ones we have committed, not future ones that haven’t happened. When has any man been acquitted from past law breaking in the court of law and the judge says, “In case you do it again, don’t worry because you’re automatically innocent of any future transgressions?” “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God (Rom.3:25).”
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I'm still looking for one person that believes sin can't condemn a "true/real/genuine Christian" to fit that belief in with the Scripture that says only past sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9). I try to address every question/thought, and have asked for this information from specific people (Solo, Saint Iguanas, MarkT). If there is even one subject of Scripture that cannot fit into a doctrinal belief, then that doctrine must be forgotten. That is the rule I adhere to. Please examine this and give answer (anyone).
Thank you Shad, this answer does get straight to the heart of your question, Lovely (Mt.10:22)
Those who have not, even what they have will be taken away. Beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing!
Hold fast to the assurance that you have received. The ones who don't have it will try to take it away from you with their proofs and lies.
This whole eternal security issue is really quite simple, God does not allow sin into heaven right?
Now backsliders are sinners right? so if Jesus comes back while you are in a backslidden state, you are going to get left behind. And unless you repent of your sins you will never enter heaven. Why because God does not allow sin into heaven (Revelation 21:27). Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So if you were saved before, but now are living a life of sin and have fallen away you have lost your salvation.
(Revelation 2:5). It is just that simple, I know it is the truth, but it seams that for anyone else to be convinced of this fact, it will take Jesus himself to do the convincing.
Though I find a lot of things wrong with this post, the main one is that you seem to be saying a Christian will lose their salation if they end up being pursuaded that salvation is consitional. Is this your position?
Do you believe that future sins have been automatically forgiven? The Word you carry says that only past sins have been forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9). If you've taken into account ALL Scripture, and believe it all to be fully inspired and true, then what do you make of that?
Thanks
Can anyone here guarantee that under any circumstance they would not deny Jesus before men without being empowered by the Holy Spirity? In other words, if something akin to the persecution going on at the time of the early church were to suddenly spring up, is there anyone here that can claim they would not do what Peter did when denying Jesus?
If Solomon came came back to life, he would be fascinated with computers for a couple of days, then he would be telling us how to download faster.
Yes, I can see where it could have gone off on a separate tangent. Thanks.
If Solomon came came back to life, he would be fascinated with computers for a couple of days, then he would be telling us how to download faster.
That is correct Sir. We must be sinless to be saved from God's wrath on sin. This is a continued action, making salvation daily. Pick up cross and follow Jesus and His ways daily.
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."
1 Pt.2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:"
1 Jn.2:6 "6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Eph.5:27 "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
2 Pt.3:14 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless."
Rev.16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."
Xtruth Matt.22:10 thanks for the verse. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. I do really admire all the post lay out by you and also all who try to make these OSAS people to understand, but until Yahweh opens their eyes they will believe their own version of scripture. People like to take one verse out of the bible and say this is what it means. You have giving so many and very well explain yet they come back with one or two verses and claim their way is right.
From Genesis to Revelation all who have forsaking the Lord were punish, what are these OSAS reading into? It is so frustrating to see it all there black and white yet, it goes over their heads, it is a very dangerous theology that OSAS, because it leads people to sin and Yahweh has no tolerance for sin none. It also leads people to never grow or move from glory to glory, they are stuck with well i am save till redemption so i can do whatever i want.
I have read a post on how this might chase away new babes on the contrary this will make a new babe to continue in perseverance til the end if somebody will tell them when you fall you must get up again and finish the race with Yeshua how is this wrong, may Yahweh forgive all who teach this false doctrine.
I will not post on this subject anymore because it's been overdone yet the scales are still there. I love you all but remember, IF YOU LOVE HIM YOU WILL KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS....
Another good and thought provoking question. I can say I think I would be faithful, as most, if not everyone here, would think the same. But Peter thought the same. It later turned out in life that he was faithful, even unto death, but he did fail that one night. The fact is, even if every Christian on earth was faced w/ death at the same time and all denied Christ to save his or her own neck, God still has to be faithful to His Word and cast all into hell if it were just a trap and we were all killed anyway.Can anyone here guarantee that under any circumstance they would not deny Jesus before men without being empowered by the Holy Spirity? In other words, if something akin to the persecution going on at the time of the early church were to suddenly spring up, is there anyone here that can claim they would not do what Peter did when denying Jesus?
Mat.10
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Don't listen to the wolves, brethren - for they have come hoping to take away, if possible, what God has prepared for you from the beginning. Hold fast to the word of truth.
Very confusing Mark. Do you believe salvation can be lost or not???
In your own words--Hold fast to the word of truth, what does this mean hold on to the word, could it mean Hold on to Him for he is His own Word?
Don't listen to the wolves, brethren - for they have come hoping to take away, if possible, what God has prepared for you from the beginning. Hold fast to the word of truth.
:naughty
:P
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