Thread: He died for the seed of abraham

Don't really know what you're trying to say, but all I need to know is "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

I think that they are trying to say only Jews can be saved? But that makes no sense when placed by this scripture:

Isaiah 49:6

"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

My problem with the concept of limited atonement is that too often it forces us to explain away texts with the rather weak argument "well, when it says 'all' or 'whole world' here, it really doesn't mean 'all' or 'whole world' or when it says 'world' it doesn't mean 'world', it only means the elect."

There are just an overwhelming amount of texts that indicate that Jesus did indeed die for the sins of the whole world, that he takes away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:16 doesn't necessarily limit Jesus' atoning work on the cross to certain people. The language of the text means to take possession of. We all know that all who believe are God's people, "the seed of Abraham". But, taking possession of and dying for are two different things. When the Bible speaks of those who are saved, it speaks of those who are God's, of Abraham's seed. But, when the Bible speaks of who Jesus came to die for, it casts the language out to encompass the whole world.

One of the texts that makes limited atonement most suspect is 1 John 2:1-2:
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

This is where the argument "well, when it says 'whole world' it really doesn't mean the whole world" breaks down. Because here John is specifically talking to believers and says to believers, "not for ours only, but also those of the whole world." To say that when John says, "but also those of the whole world" he didn't mean those other than believers makes the entire verse nonsense.

Even the redemption of some does not automatically imply that they are the elect. We see this in 2 Peter 2:1:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

So now, the good Calvinist will have to explain how when Peter said, "even denying the Master who bought them" he didn't mean those whom Christ bought via the death on the cross.

I was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church for 14 years, and never once did anyone adequately explain that. (Not knocking the OPC though, a lot of really good folks there!)

I believe that the seed of Abraham does encompass all in the world who believer, not just the Jew, but all.

But, again, I find a bit of a dance around some terminology here. John is clear in 1 John that he is speaking not only to believers, but also those who do not believe. Again the text:

My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Who is the "our" John refers to but the brethren. Then who is the whole world? Those who are not of the brethren.

2 Peter backs this up. Again the text:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Peter tells us that even the false prophets, who deny the Master were nonetheless bought by Him. Their rejection of Him brings destruction upon themselves, but nonetheless, they are bought by Him.

Jews are not the only people who have abraham as a Father, did you not read this before ? Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

What does A Father of many nations mean to you ? Does not that appear to include more than one nation { israel ] ? Think about it..

I think you're confused, I'm not disgreeing with you. I do believe Abraham is the spiritual father of all those who accept Jesus as their savior.

Sorry, 2 Peter 2:1 does not say "those born to be destroyed" but rather ""even denying the Master who bought them".

This is just where I part (theological) company with Calvinist doctrine. It's not something that I break fellowship over, but I've heard Calvinists dancing around this issue for 25 years now, and they never reconcile the very clear teachings of texts like 2 Peter 2:1 and all the other texts that show that Christ died for the world.

Not really. Your missing the metaphor in 2 Peter 2:12. Here is the text:

First in KJV:
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

in the NewKJV:
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption

Here it is in NASB
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

in Young's Literal
12and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed -- in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil -- in their destruction shall be destroyed,

in the English Standard:
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

The reason why I'm including all these various translations it to point out that the "as" in 2 Peter 2:12 is understood to be a metaphor, that the false prophets are like unreasoning animals. Not that they are unreasoning animals, but Peter is comparing them to unreasoning animals.

However, I notice that instead of dealing with 2 Peter 2:1 you have jumped instead to 2 Peter 2:12 which seems to say what you want it to say, rather than 2:1 which clearly says something different than what you are saying. This is the same thing that I have found that most my friends and family members who are Calvinists tend to do: deal with texts like 2 Peter 2:1 by jumping to more "friendly" texts. When I was a Calvinist, I used to do the same thing myself, and it bothered me, because I came to realize that concentrating on texts that seemed to point to limited atonement, didn't explain the texts that even more clearly point to Jesus' death being for the whole world.

Just because Peter compares false prophets to unreasoning beasts in 2:12 does not mean that he didn't clearly state in verse 1 that the Master bought them and they denied the Master.

Even if, even if Peter is saying that false prophets are unreasoning animals are made to be taken and destroyed it still does not mean that he didn't say in verse one that the Master bought them.