Futurist vs Preterist debate

[JohnD]

There is nothing in John nor any other book that can refute....

He will come a Second time.

JLB

John 14:1–3 (AV)
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jude 14–15 (AV)
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:4 (AV)
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 12:10 (AV)
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[reba]

There is nothing in John nor any other book that can refute....

He will come a Second time.

JLB

JLB you know i have always said i believe He will return...

 

[JLB]

JLB you know i have always said i believe He will return...

Yes Maam.

 

[Deborah13]

You make these unsubstantiated suppositions based on your wanting the Preterist doctrine to be true... flying in the face of even one ancient account, Miss Deborah. Those who try to disprove the Bible itself as holy writ use the same tactics. I am not placing you in league with them, you understand. I am simply making you aware of it.

A former pastor friend (his doing) a preterist did not take well what I said about his defense that the parousia of Jesus in Jerusalem CE 70 was an invisible return like unto the Jehovah's Witnesses claim he did in 1914 CE in Brooklyn which is refuted by Matthew 24:26-27 / Acts 1:11, and Revelation 1:7. My only point was that anyone who must resort to these measures ought to abandon what is so clearly unbiblical.

Dear John, Sorry, couldn't resist, I've never written a Dear John letter.

Anyway, I was perfectly happy being a futurist for many years. I'm a partial preterist now. I still believe the Lord is coming and He will resurrected those who have died and rapture those who are alive.
If someone could convince me that Jesus was talking about a future temple when He said, there will not be one stone left standing, and some of you standing here will see and a few other things....maybe I'd change my mind back.
Either way or some other way is fine with me, I have no preference.

 

[reba]

 

[JohnD]

Okay.

Sometimes prophecy pierces through the contemporary image / person / place / thing to an even deeper (and in this case about the future temple) prophecy. I assume we are agreed that the prophecy in Ezekiel 28 is not limited to just the literal king of Tyre (verse 13 says he was in Eden the garden of God). I also showed how the temple was measured etc. in Ezekiel 40-48 while the actual temple was not standing. To answer those who say the temple is mentioned as if it were standing in Revelation.

 

[jasonc]

Okay.

Sometimes prophecy pierces through the contemporary image / person / place / thing to an even deeper (and in this case about the future temple) prophecy. I assume we are agreed that the prophecy in Ezekiel 28 is not limited to just the literal king of Tyre (verse 13 says he was in Eden the garden of God). I also showed how the temple was measured etc. in Ezekiel 40-48 while the actual temple was not standing. To answer those who say the temple is mentioned as if it were standing in Revelation.

if you take that literally then you believe the blood isn't sufficient when he returns to reign? they the Hebrews and gentiles will be under the torah?

 

[JohnD]

if you take that literally then you believe the blood isn't sufficient when he returns to reign? they the Hebrews and gentiles will be under the torah?

How so? I am not sure I understand your point. Please clarify / cite scriptures you are referring to.

 

[JohnD]

There is a mystical interpretation that (when led by the Holy Spirit) we can glean from scriptures in this case the Old Testament to support the intent expressed in the New Testament.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

John 16:13 (AV)
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (AV)
21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 John 4:1 (AV)
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Acts 17:11 (AV)
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (AV)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 2:15 (AV)
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.1

Deuteronomy 29:29 (AV)
29The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (AV)
2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Isaiah 28:9–13 (AV)
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

 

[ezrider]

I have probably said this before, but I have no doubt that almost every single individual who leans towards a preterist view began as a futurist first, and only changed their minds after certain scriptures were revealed and opened unto them by the spirit. I would be curious to know if any have who have held to preterist teachings, to later reject certain prophecy that they have understood to be fulfilled in Christ, to wait for some future fulfillment again, the question is; Why?

The Kingdom of God has been given to Christ, for He has risen and has ascended to rule the kingdoms of this world from the heavens, sitting at the right hand God. The Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom that Jesus came proclaiming two thousand years ago. His kingdom was established at that time. The preterist view of prophecy recognizes the fulfillment of certain old testament prophecies that spoke to the coming and the establishment of the Kingdom of God according to the covenant and promises that the Lord made with Abraham and was confirmed in the blood of Christ in the establishment of the New Covenant of Grace. Christ has become the head cornerstone, setting the sure foundation that we are built upon in Heavenly Zion. Where we walk in the Spirit of the Resurrected Christ, and by HIS SPIRIT, we walk in the kingdom of heaven.

So my questions to those who out of hand flat out reject the notion of preterism:
1. Do you acknowledge that Christ is currently reigning in His Kingdom?
2. When was the Kingdom given to the Son of God and established in HIS NAME?
3. Are there any of the old testament prophecies that you would acknowledge as being fulfilled in Christ as to the establishment of His Kingdom?
4. If all the prophecies that most futurists hold to are yet to be fulfilled, then how can you claim to be built upon Christ as a sure foundation if His kingdom has not yet come and the chief cornerstone has not yet been set?

 

[Brother Mike]

Staff requested a rephrasing it did not happen.. edited reba

 

[JLB]

reply to an edited post..reba

 

[Brother Mike]

reply to an edited post reba

 

[reba]

Is Jesus the Christ your King? Does your King have a Kingdom?

 

[reba]

Rephrase guys the snarks are not constructive... Brother Mike JLB

And for John D this is the hat i have on in this post... Admin...

 

[jasonc]

How so? I am not sure I understand your point. Please clarify / cite scriptures you are referring to.

Ezekiel 40-48 read them and take that literally. the sons of zadok where are they? when did they remain as priests? was it after the cross? or before?

 

[dianegcook]

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9, And he said, Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10;Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Rev.5:1
And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev.6:1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.....

Rev.7:3
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

[ezrider]

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9, And he said, Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10;Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Rev.5:1
And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev.6:1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.....

Rev.7:3
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Daniel was told to shut up the words and seal the book. John in the book of Revelation said the words of this prophecy are at hand.
But all that John saw and heard as given in the book of Revelation, what was not revealed, nor written for our sakes?

 

[JLB]

Is Jesus the Christ your King? Does your King have a Kingdom?

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24

Jesus taught His disciples to pray; Thy kingdom come...on earth as it is in heaven.

God's kingdom in heaven, will one day completely come and remove all the kingdoms of this world, so that the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. Revelation 11:15

That the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters covers the sea. Habakkuk

That the gold and the silver and the bronze and the iron and clay shall be crushed together and shall become as chaff, on the summer threshing floor, and no trace of them shall ever be found again.

I'll say that again; NO TRACE OF THEM SHALL EVER BE FOUND AGAIN.

That Day has not come.

That Day will come when Jesus returns, and puts an end to all rule and authority.

That Day is called the Day of the Lord.

In that Day He will personally destroy the lawless one with the brightness of His Coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

In that Day, He will be the Stone that was cut out without hands that strikes the Image on the ten toes, which are the ten kings that will arise and rule the final ten kingdoms, in the last days, as seen in Daniel 2:44


44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Daniel 2:44

...it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms


Read the description of the event that will forever change the kingdoms of the earth -

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found.


In that Day there will be no more wars or evil kingdoms or rulers left on earth.

In that Day, there will be rest for the people of God.


That Day is something to look forward to.


JLB

 

[JohnD]

Ezekiel 40-48 read them and take that literally. the sons of zadok where are they? when did they remain as priests? was it after the cross? or before?

Ah. A preterist "tell." The preumption that God is so totally finished with Israel (the real basis of Preterism) that such questions presuppose the answer "before the cross" since there is no after the cross with anything Jewish...

My response is... puh roov it!

Prove that God is finished with the Jewish people and the priesthood sons of Zadok etc.