Futurist vs Preterist debate

[jasonc]

I counter with Actual scripture.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
(Isa 13:9-10)

The moon can be forever with, or without the sun.

And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
(Isa 13:11)

God will remove all the sinners from the face of the earth. The stars will not give light or the sun, it will become dark once the 6th and 7th seal is released.

Sabbath's forever??

\

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(Isa 66:22-23)

Sabbath is also defined as a week, from one week to the next or every week. The activity that takes place is to worship before the Lord in person. That is not happening right now, neither is there a new Heaven or earth yet.

Sabbath is a week? where is that? and so if there is no sun? what about well the fact that we kinda need that to have warmth? aslo that outside literally that city is hell. for without the tree of life is the lost.

revelation 22 ylt

Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15 and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

seems to if one takes that literally then you must say the new earth has hell right on the surface, and the people that aren't allowed in the city cant enter that new city.

 

[jasonc]

I don't buy into full preterism. just showing that one cant be that and see the book of revalation a bit different. so there wont be shadows in the new age? the city will hover over the earth and we wont have shadows?

 

[Brother Mike]

And yet from the scripture, as well as other extra-biblical text. The last great technological explosion recorded in History likened unto what you are referencing would have been when the Sons of God came unto the daughters of men and bare them children who became mighty men and men of renown. It is said of these fallen angels that they taught mankind all manner of knowledge, from math, sciences and astronomy. They taught them metallurgy, and took them from sticks and stones to weapons of war. So by your example, are you saying the technological explosion of this past century is a sign likened unto the days of Noah?

God's Spirit walked with man up until Gen 6. God was with them constantly. You don't think they might have learned a couple of things from the creator?

I also don't know what Extra-biblical text is. It's scripture or not scripture.

There is no scripture for Angel in Genesis 6
No evidence these Sons of God taught man anything.

Even if the "Sons of God" did teach man. Every single living thing that took air to breath died save Noah's and His family. Any knowledge left would have come from Noah's line.

Man was not stupid, so man was able to figure out rubbing sticks together, Astronomy is junk science, and Through hundreds of years we go from Stone arrows to gun powder.
Not all that impressive.

the first metal arrows "Copper" were made by Egypt. Pretty advanced considering our native Americans fell far behind the arrow technology.

Despite the wonderful advancements in Arrow Technology, and gun powder. The Wright Brothers figured out what a plane should be shaped like and figured out the power yaw and roll issues.

Some of the contraptions made before were pretty crazy.

Man goes from his first powered flight, and in just 30 short years the jet airplane.

So the time it takes to go from Stone arrow to gunpowder is thousands of years.

The time it took to actually fly a powered craft to full jet airplane is 30 years.

That is all the point I was trying to make, and planes are not the only thing that happened in the 1900's. All beat anything man has done before.

 

[Brother Mike]

Sabbath is a week? where is that? and so if there is no sun? what about well the fact that we kinda need that to have warmth? aslo that outside literally that city is hell. for without the tree of life is the lost.

revelation 22 ylt

seems to if one takes that literally then you must say the new earth has hell right on the surface, and the people that aren't allowed in the city cant enter that new city.

There are ideas to those on the outside. Outter darkness a place of lost reward? those sort of that have survived and stuck around. Scripture does not say. It's not hell though, that gets cast into the lake of fire.

I don't buy into full preterism. just showing that one cant be that and see the book of revalation a bit different. so there wont be shadows in the new age? the city will hover over the earth and we wont have shadows?

I understand Brother. If that is the case, then consider reading carefully the scripture your posting so others don't rip you apart thinking your some nut case full blown Preterist.

Read the scripture very carefully, then post. I say this in Love, I do the same thing because I hate folks calling me out on something I could have avoided if I had not been careless.

Example, You said if there was no sun How folks going to keep warm?

The scripture does not exactly say there is no Sun. The 6th seal accounts just have it go dark. (does it light up again?)

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
(Rev 21:23)

It says the city had no need of the sun to give light.
It did not say there was no need to give warmth.
It did not say there was no sun.

Just take a little extra time to read over the scripture again, then post. sometimes we read scripture and it says something we want it to say or think it says, when it really did not say that. Happens to me once in awhile until someone bust my chops on it.

Thank you for your defense on that Trinity issue. It's good to know people care enough to remember what you think and believe.

 

[jasonc]

There are ideas to those on the outside. Outter darkness a place of lost reward? those sort of that have survived and stuck around. Scripture does not say. It's not hell though, that gets cast into the lake of fire.



I understand Brother. If that is the case, then consider reading carefully the scripture your posting so others don't rip you apart thinking your some nut case full blown Preterist.

Read the scripture very carefully, then post. I say this in Love, I do the same thing because I hate folks calling me out on something I could have avoided if I had not been careless.

Example, You said if there was no sun How folks going to keep warm?

The scripture does not exactly say there is no Sun.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
(Rev 21:23)

It says the city had no need of the sun to give light.
It did not say there was no need to give warmth.
It did not say there was no sun.

Just take a little extra time to read over the scripture again, then post. sometimes we read scripture and it says something we want it to say or think it says, when it really did not say that. Happens to me once in awhile until someone bust my chops on it.

Thank you for your defense on that Trinity issue. It's good to know people care enough to remember what you think and believe.

the moon doesn't generate heat but light is reflected. the idea of heat. the planet would have to rotate. which the size of the us is would be a no heat zone. that is a problem. that city would also cast a "shadow" on the whole earth that is near it. do the math on the size of the thing and its large. about several miles in height. the atmosphere is thinner and colder as you get higher in altitude. i can be very cold above the state of florida and it be summer. i know that when i left nj during the spring of 05 it got cold during the winter well below zero before we hit cruising altitude.
12000 furlongs are the height. let see. 12,000 time 660 ft divided by 5280 equals 1500 MILES! uh yeah that is literal allright the shadow is the height of the u.s so if this was to be here and the sea was. Russia, nor china would have heat as the planet rotated.

and you forgot that the sun and moon is often taken as destroyed by the verse in peter that mentions it

2 peter 3:8

and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
11 All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?

where does it say that the sun is recreated? its mentioned. but if you are going to take it that way. no need for the sun then the heat is still needed?

 

[jasonc]

i take that mentioned as the jews kinda needed the sun to know the day to worship and the moon. they do mark feasts by the moon. He is saying the new worship wont need that. we mark easter by the moon of peshac being a week after. we wont need to do that in the new age. every day is one of worship but since you mentioned that literally, i also knew the height was tall just not able to recall how high until i reread the chapter.

 

[Brother Mike]

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

Read my advice Again Brother. Some may say the sun might be burned up here in this verse. It matters what YOU say though, not what others say.

There is no noise in Space, the Heavens are often refereed to earths atmosphere, sometimes not. The earth will be melted, we get a new heavens and new earth. The sun is not mentioned here.

What is looks like is that Earths Atmosphere is ignited and all the oxygen is depleted.

We have no scripture saying the sun is destroyed anywhere. No scripture saying the sun remains dark after the 6th seal. No scripture saying the sun is turned back on again.
we do have a scripture the stars are just rolled up. Could be no stars, I said could be.

If there is no sun for God's new Earth, things are going to be pretty frozen and cold. We don't have tons of information on these subjects, we can just stick to with what scripture actually mentions.

 

[jasonc]

the bible also doesn't say how far out the atmosphere in the new creation will extend. 1500 miles is a lot, the earth will not be the same. it doesn't say in either case. if you take it that way to be literal and also must then say it must base on silence that the earth has a new thicker atmosphere. which is speculative.

at the top level of that it will be cold if the lord doesn't generate heat or the sun even if it does. imho and that is base on speculation since not much is said on the new earth.

 

[jasonc]

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(2Pe 3:10)

Read my advice Again Brother. Some may say the sun might be burned up here in this verse. It matters what YOU say though, not what others say.

There is no noise in Space, the Heavens are often refereed to earths atmosphere, sometimes not. The earth will be melted, we get a new heavens and new earth. The sun is not mentioned here.

What is looks like is that Earths Atmosphere is ignited and all the oxygen is depleted.

We have no scripture saying the sun is destroyed anywhere. No scripture saying the sun remains dark after the 6th seal. No scripture saying the sun is turned back on again.
we do have a scripture the stars are just rolled up. Could be no stars, I said could be.

If there is no sun for God's new Earth, things are going to be pretty frozen and cold. We don't have tons of information on these subjects, we can just stick to with what scripture actually mentions.

again what is in the heavens? the first heaven(air) second the space around the earth) its plural. funny and well one could argue the heavenly where the spirits operate. that could work

notice its plural not singular. why would god say that if its not literal( and i don't take it literal) just showing you it cant be and you made my case with two times.

a shadow from the size of the temple is going be some mileage so how can it be that its literal then? a 1500 mile object will case one heck of a shadow. without the temple means outside the temple where is the lost then if they aren't in the temple? lake of fire?

 

[Brother Mike]

the bible also doesn't say how far out the atmosphere in the new creation will extend. 1500 miles is a lot, the earth will not be the same. it doesn't say in either case. if you take it that way to be literal and also must then say it must base on silence that the earth has a new thicker atmosphere. which is speculative.

at the top level of that it will be cold if the lord doesn't generate heat or the sun even if it does. imho and that is base on speculation since not much is said on the new earth.

Which was my point Brother............... heaven is used for heavens that birds can reach and way out there somewhere Heaven. Speculation at best.

Peter says the earth is melted, God said in "A" scripture new heaven, New Earth.

Not a lot to go on there. I agree, speculation. We need to get back to disproving pretreism, I mean "HALF" disproving it since you not a full preterist.

I believe Rev 12 is a past event by the way. JLB does not.

 

[jasonc]

Which was my point Brother............... heaven is used for heavens that birds can reach and way out there somewhere Heaven. Speculation at best.

Peter says the earth is melted, God said in "A" scripture new heaven, New Earth.

Not a lot to go on there. I agree, speculation. We need to get back to disproving pretreism, I mean "HALF" disproving it since you not a full preterist.

I believe Rev 12 is a past event by the way. JLB does not.

i don't buy futurism see my argument for that problem with a literal rendering of Ezekiel 40-48. if i do then then the torah returns , i haven mentioned that the church teaches the Lord reigns in isreal from the temple, ok there is a mentioning of the prince atoning. whom is the prince? jesus? if we are taking those literally then your wife, daughter cant enter into the presence of the Lord. she cant see Jesus. jesus died to change that. why would god go back to a lesser way?

 

[Brother Mike]

i don't buy futurism see my argument for that problem with a literal rendering of Ezekiel 40-48. if i do then then the torah returns , i haven mentioned that the church teaches the Lord reigns in isreal from the temple, ok there is a mentioning of the prince atoning. whom is the prince? jesus? if we are taking those literally then your wife, daughter cant enter into the presence of the Lord. she cant see Jesus. jesus died to change that. why would god go back to a lesser way?

Truly Jesus said them it's better I leave you. We have his Spirit now that is available to all, and we don't have to stand in line or move around the masses to get to Jesus.

John said when he appears, we will be Like Him.
We get the new body.
We are no longer limited to physical earth.

So though we do have access to him now, even better than if he was still here, we still have to wrap up mankind, and remove what is not God from our midst.

Just as God said to Noah, My Spirit will not always strive with Mankind, God will not allow sin to continue forever here on earth.
Thousands are getting saved every day, our numbers are increasing, the Kingdom is winning. Where sin abounds, Grace abounds more.

Even with that, dark things get darker, and the enemy is still running loose. People still die "Physically" It all has to come to a close.

 

[Dave Watchman]

The Word knowledge in Hebrew means increased awareness, perception, skill and understanding.

Depending on who you asked, then seal was released in mid 1800's, or just after the 1900's In just 30 years period after 1900 man goes from it's first powered flight, to jet airplane.

The first gas combustion engine in a car came after 1900's (We had electric cars late 1800's

The first digital computer begin in 1939.

Atomic energy 1895-1945. Harnessing this knowledge did not come until 1939.

Israel became a nation 1948.

A release of NEW, never seen before technology came in the 1900's. Something man has never had.

In 1928 we had the first Antibiotic that would fight infection. Penecillien.

The 1900's introduced to man new technology that man never had before. Not improved past technology, but things we never conceived in the past.

Technology has ended. Nothing else new under the sun:

What Danials seal released has not been improved on. Cars are still gas combustion engines, Electric cars are not much different than their late 1800's counter parts, and Computers are capped out in speed. Planes are not any better.

The only thing we have been able to do is to improve on what the Lord gave man in the 1900's. A lot of technology is not price practical and can't be made for everyone's use.

AMD did get a CPU to clock at 6.5 ghz but it needed to be brought to absolute zero. If you want to run at 5 ghz at home you will need a liquid cooler for your CPU. Quatum experimental computers made ran no faster than what you get at the store.

IBM has made a Graphene chip, but we have to wait and see if it can be used for home use and is practical.

Our leaps and bounds in Technology has come to a crawl, we are in those last days.

Mike.

Brother Mike, Good post. Try telling this to the guys at MIT, they seem to be still fully embracing Moore's Law. Common sense should tell them that the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit cannot possibly double every two years indefinitely.

This short article has the Huebner graph which I think lends support to your note.

http://anthonyburgoyne.com/2011/10/...n-smart-and-the-rate-of-technological-change/


The Prius example is a perfect one. Henry Ford couldn't duplicate the technology that produced it, but it's still just a car that does the same job as Henry's Model T. Point A to B.
I'm afraid that I agree with you, it's another indicator that not many recognize, "we are at the end".

 

[dianegcook]

I counter with the chapter in Isiah where it says the moon (which needs the sun to be lit) will be forever. the book also mentions that the Sabbath is forever.

so is it forever or is it not then in that part of Isiah?

What I was speaking of was this: Rev.21:
A new heaven new earth, and there was no more sea.
Isa.65:17
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.
19, And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people, and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
25, the wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock...they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Rev.21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon,..for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Isa.60:19,20
The sun shall be no more thy light by day, neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee, but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and God thy glory.
Thy sun shall no more go down, neither shall the moon withdraw itself, for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

He is my sabbath, rest, so yes, the sabbath is 4 ever.

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike, Good post. Try telling this to the guys at MIT, they seem to be still fully embracing Moore's Law. Common sense should tell them that the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit cannot possibly double every two years indefinitely.

This short article has the Huebner graph which I think lends support to your note.

http://anthonyburgoyne.com/2011/10/...n-smart-and-the-rate-of-technological-change/


The Prius example is a perfect one. Henry Ford couldn't duplicate the technology that produced it, but it's still just a car that does the same job as Henry's Model T. Point A to B.
I'm afraid that I agree with you, it's another indicator that not many recognize, "we are at the end".

Thank you Brother, your far more educated than I am.

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(Dan 12:9-10)

I was seeking the Lord on Danial, and about the knowledge that shall increase. I wanted to know what Words were hidden as I was misreading the scripture.

The Lord said this to me. "The words are not hidden, but where sealed until a time. The Word went forth to man and I increased his understanding of things, and gave them witty inventions. As for the time, look at the car and plane, for nothing new was given, and man shall find the end of what they know. At that time it shall be the end."

That is about as educated as I have gotten.

View attachment 6337

Thank you so much, now you have given me some things to look up and check out. The Prius example is fascinating, though I don't understand some of it.

from the graph, it appears this knowledge came from 1855-1955.

It appears my future gaming system is in Jeopardy though.

Thank you for sharing this with me. Blessings.

We are approaching the end.

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
(2Ti 3:1)

 

[JohnD]

The Lord God is not finished with the Jewish people.

Jeremiah 31:35–37 (AV)
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Romans 11:23 (AV)
23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

As opposed to Hebrews 6:4-6.

And that even in unbelief:

Romans 11:28 (AV)
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

And I cannot find an actual scripture passage, but the final official outcry of Yeshua HaMoshiakh b' Klal Yisro'el in the end of the end is the very purpose for the great tribulation / time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). All of which oppose and refute the form of replacement theology known as Preterism.

 

[JohnD]

The thousand year reign / millenium will have a temple and sacrifices according to Isaiah if memory serves. You think the Zadok priesthood would have nothing to do at that time, Jason?

 

[JohnD]

Long non answer .... I remember you as the guy who expects clear direct answers from other members .. so i ask again and add a second question.

Is Jesus the Christ your King? Does your King have a Kingdom?
What do the Scriptures tell us the Kingdom is?

Jesus is the King of the Jews. He is my King. Do I change him from being Jewish or does he change me from being gentile?

 

[reba]

He is my King.

Do I change him from being Jewish or does he change me from being gentile?

Doesn't His shed Blood change us from being gentiles?
You are not Jewish by blood but you are not a heathen or pagan either
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
His Word :
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom_3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[jasonc]

The thousand year reign / millenium will have a temple and sacrifices according to Isaiah if memory serves. You think the Zadok priesthood would have nothing to do at that time, Jason?

so you do think that LAW returns. ok i thought so. no females can draw close to god. see him.own land, etc. slavery etc. polygamy etc. paul said the blood of animals cant atone like the blood of Jesus. so the mosaic covenant is better? the jews will lead the gentiles to be under the torah? okay.