Johann sends me this message [in orange] August 14 2023
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/everyone-goes-to-heaven.51521/
Which is a copy-paste of the following article from Catholic.com
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/do-all-people-go-to-heaven
Therefore I will rebuke it.
start quote
The prolific author and Eastern orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has just released a new book that covers a very old topic: Universalism, or the belief that all creatures will definitely be saved.
In his new book That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation, Hart argues that eventually all people (which may include fallen angels, though Hart doesn’t explicitly come out and say it) will spend eternity with God in heaven. That’s because an eternal hell is supposedly so unjust that if it were an essential part of Christian doctrine it would be (in Hart’s words) “proof that Christianity should be dismissed as a self-evidently morally obtuse and logically incoherent faith.” (As an aside, my colleague Karlo Broussard has done some great work showing hell is not unjust.)
end quote
[Editor: I believe that even the fallen angels shall be saved, as the Lord upholds all those who fall.]
start quote
The possibility that hell is empty is not a twenty-first century novelty. In the third century, the ecclesial writer Origen argued for apokatastasis, or a “restoration” that would unite all things, including unrepentant sinners, to God. This would seem to rule out the possibility that anyone would spend an eternity in hell, though modern commenters are divided over the implications of Origen’s theology on this question. According to Bible scholar Richard Bauckham:
Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believed that the wicked would be finally annihilated. . . . Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation . . . though these few included some major theologians of the early church.
end quote
[false again, http://www.mercyuponall.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Prevailing.pdf is an ebook that shows Christian Universalism was the prevailing doctrine during the times of the Early Christians around 300 AD even.]
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The Catholic Church condemned universalism at the regional council of Orange in 543, though a few theologians still held out hope for all creatures to be saved. This uniformity of thought began to change, however, with the rise of denominations like the Universalist Church of America (which exists today under the name Unitarian Universalism).
end quote
[I rebuke the Roman Catholic church for their false teachings in works salvation through the sacrements, it is faith alone by which we are saved. Let us look at biblical scripture for proof in Christian universalism, rather than mere human made denominations]
start quote
Most Christian universalists like Hart agree that hell is real and even believe that some or many people will go there. But from their perspective hell is a temporary “purgatory-like” condition and the Bible’s references to it being “eternal” only mean hell is a temporary punishment that the damned face in “the age to come” because the Greek word for eternity (aionion) can also mean “age” (Hart even refers to hell as “the purifying flames of the Age to come”).
end quote
[The word Hell does not appear in the bible at all
https://tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
I do not believe in purgatory in the sense that, while people do suffer for their sins, even after death, it is the suffering that convinces them to believe in Christ, the belief is what saves them, not the suffering. That’s why it’s temporary, because eventually in any number of aions and olams, all shall be convinced to have faith alone in Christ to be saved. I do agree that the word aionion means “pertaining to an age” because it’s literally an inflection of the word “aion”]
start quote
As I’ve shown in my engagements with others who dispute the eternal aspect of hell, the endless nature of hell is quite obvious from the biblical texts. Given the strength of the Catholic Church’s case, universalists can’t just claim that the punishments of hell might not be permanent. To be convincing, they need to show positive evidence that all people will eventually be saved. When it comes to providing positive evidence, universalists usually cite biblical passages that, from their perspective, describe God effecting the salvation of every single person.
end quote
[Alright, so where is the Catholic Church’s case then? They mention that it’s apparently quite obvious, but where is this proof? From my perspective, Christian Universalism is quite obvious, but I at least post proof texts, such as this one]
John 6:33 "The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the WORLD."
start quote
Hart seems puzzled, though, that these passages were not given more attention by theologians throughout the Church’s history, noting “how odd it is that for at least fifteen centuries such passages have been all but lost behind a veil as thin as the one that can be woven from those three or four deeply ambiguous verses that seem (and only seem) to threaten eternal torments for the wicked.”
But perhaps that’s because these passages don’t teach that everyone will be saved. Instead, they express the hope that anyone can be saved.
end quote
[We see though that it is God’s hope that everyone will be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV - who desires all men to be saved. So it’s not merely our hope, but rather God’s hope. And does God’s hope ever fail? God is love after all, so no. Because love never fails 1 Cor 13:8]
start quote
In 1 Timothy 2:4, for example, St. Paul says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But God also desires that we not sin, and yet we still do. God desires the good for all of his creatures, but because he has also given human beings and angels the gift of free will, it follows that God will allow us to enjoy or suffer the consequence of this good gift, even if it means eternal separation from him.
end quote
[Let’s say that God does separate us endlessly from Him. Here’s the problem…. SIN still exists! That’s right. Sin is still there, it’s just tucked away where you can’t see it. It’s like you have dirty clothes. What does God do? Does God either a) Christian Universalism wash the clothes by the blood of Christ aka convince all people to believe in Christ to be saved
Or b) does God just hide the clothes inside of a closet and then they start to mold and rot? Obviously, God would choose a). Because God clearly loves us John 3:16. God loves the clothes! He does not want to just throw out the clothes when He can easily wash them, because He has the authority to do so! And the desire to do so!
start quote
Although Hart admits he doesn’t like “reducing biblical theology to concentrated distillates (prooftexts)” he proceeds to do just that by listing nearly a dozen verses, including their original Greek and Hart’s own rendering of them from his own strange, overly-literal translation of the Bible. Unfortunately, his translation doesn’t offer much in terms of exegesis or understanding of these crucial texts.
For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul says, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive,” but this doesn’t mean that through Christ all people shall be brought to eternal life. What it means is that all who are “in Christ” (a phrase Paul often uses for the saved or elect) shall be brought to eternal life. This logic also explains Romans 5:18, wherein Paul says, “As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”
end quote
All people shall become alive in Christ and thus all people shall be saved. This is really just putting the “Christian” in Christian Universalism. It’s true that it does mean that all who are in Christ shall be brought to life, however, it also, literally be extension means, that because all humans are descendants of Adam, then all humans will “be in Christ” aka will become believers in Christ and thus gain their aionion life.
start quote
This refers to life for all believers, or those who are in Christ. We know this because in the previous verse Paul says, “If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.” This is talking about the salvation of all believers, not the salvation of all people. Jesus himself says that he will “draw all men to himself” (John 12:32), but that doesn’t mean that people can’t reject him even after being so drawn. In this passage Jesus also foreshadows his own crucifixion, which may mean that all people will have their sins atoned for on the cross but the grace that Christ accrues for them may not be applied to their souls if they choose to reject it.
end quote
The contradiction here is that they state that salvation is just for the believers. Even though, all humans have been affected by Adam’s trespass. All people will become believers in Christ and thus all people shall be saved.
Otherwise, through this ECT argument it means that there are humans that are somehow not sinners and already perfect besides God, which is a contradiction. Or that somehow God is not inside of all things, which is also a contradiction.
Rom. 11:36 "Of Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS, to whom be glory forever. Amen"
Romans 3:10 NLT 10 As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/everyone-goes-to-heaven.51521/
Which is a copy-paste of the following article from Catholic.com
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/do-all-people-go-to-heaven
Therefore I will rebuke it.
start quote
The prolific author and Eastern orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has just released a new book that covers a very old topic: Universalism, or the belief that all creatures will definitely be saved.
In his new book That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation, Hart argues that eventually all people (which may include fallen angels, though Hart doesn’t explicitly come out and say it) will spend eternity with God in heaven. That’s because an eternal hell is supposedly so unjust that if it were an essential part of Christian doctrine it would be (in Hart’s words) “proof that Christianity should be dismissed as a self-evidently morally obtuse and logically incoherent faith.” (As an aside, my colleague Karlo Broussard has done some great work showing hell is not unjust.)
end quote
[Editor: I believe that even the fallen angels shall be saved, as the Lord upholds all those who fall.]
start quote
The possibility that hell is empty is not a twenty-first century novelty. In the third century, the ecclesial writer Origen argued for apokatastasis, or a “restoration” that would unite all things, including unrepentant sinners, to God. This would seem to rule out the possibility that anyone would spend an eternity in hell, though modern commenters are divided over the implications of Origen’s theology on this question. According to Bible scholar Richard Bauckham:
Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believed that the wicked would be finally annihilated. . . . Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation . . . though these few included some major theologians of the early church.
end quote
[false again, http://www.mercyuponall.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Prevailing.pdf is an ebook that shows Christian Universalism was the prevailing doctrine during the times of the Early Christians around 300 AD even.]
start quote
The Catholic Church condemned universalism at the regional council of Orange in 543, though a few theologians still held out hope for all creatures to be saved. This uniformity of thought began to change, however, with the rise of denominations like the Universalist Church of America (which exists today under the name Unitarian Universalism).
end quote
[I rebuke the Roman Catholic church for their false teachings in works salvation through the sacrements, it is faith alone by which we are saved. Let us look at biblical scripture for proof in Christian universalism, rather than mere human made denominations]
start quote
Most Christian universalists like Hart agree that hell is real and even believe that some or many people will go there. But from their perspective hell is a temporary “purgatory-like” condition and the Bible’s references to it being “eternal” only mean hell is a temporary punishment that the damned face in “the age to come” because the Greek word for eternity (aionion) can also mean “age” (Hart even refers to hell as “the purifying flames of the Age to come”).
end quote
[The word Hell does not appear in the bible at all
https://tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
I do not believe in purgatory in the sense that, while people do suffer for their sins, even after death, it is the suffering that convinces them to believe in Christ, the belief is what saves them, not the suffering. That’s why it’s temporary, because eventually in any number of aions and olams, all shall be convinced to have faith alone in Christ to be saved. I do agree that the word aionion means “pertaining to an age” because it’s literally an inflection of the word “aion”]
start quote
As I’ve shown in my engagements with others who dispute the eternal aspect of hell, the endless nature of hell is quite obvious from the biblical texts. Given the strength of the Catholic Church’s case, universalists can’t just claim that the punishments of hell might not be permanent. To be convincing, they need to show positive evidence that all people will eventually be saved. When it comes to providing positive evidence, universalists usually cite biblical passages that, from their perspective, describe God effecting the salvation of every single person.
end quote
[Alright, so where is the Catholic Church’s case then? They mention that it’s apparently quite obvious, but where is this proof? From my perspective, Christian Universalism is quite obvious, but I at least post proof texts, such as this one]
John 6:33 "The Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the WORLD."
start quote
Hart seems puzzled, though, that these passages were not given more attention by theologians throughout the Church’s history, noting “how odd it is that for at least fifteen centuries such passages have been all but lost behind a veil as thin as the one that can be woven from those three or four deeply ambiguous verses that seem (and only seem) to threaten eternal torments for the wicked.”
But perhaps that’s because these passages don’t teach that everyone will be saved. Instead, they express the hope that anyone can be saved.
end quote
[We see though that it is God’s hope that everyone will be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 NKJV - who desires all men to be saved. So it’s not merely our hope, but rather God’s hope. And does God’s hope ever fail? God is love after all, so no. Because love never fails 1 Cor 13:8]
start quote
In 1 Timothy 2:4, for example, St. Paul says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But God also desires that we not sin, and yet we still do. God desires the good for all of his creatures, but because he has also given human beings and angels the gift of free will, it follows that God will allow us to enjoy or suffer the consequence of this good gift, even if it means eternal separation from him.
end quote
[Let’s say that God does separate us endlessly from Him. Here’s the problem…. SIN still exists! That’s right. Sin is still there, it’s just tucked away where you can’t see it. It’s like you have dirty clothes. What does God do? Does God either a) Christian Universalism wash the clothes by the blood of Christ aka convince all people to believe in Christ to be saved
Or b) does God just hide the clothes inside of a closet and then they start to mold and rot? Obviously, God would choose a). Because God clearly loves us John 3:16. God loves the clothes! He does not want to just throw out the clothes when He can easily wash them, because He has the authority to do so! And the desire to do so!
start quote
Although Hart admits he doesn’t like “reducing biblical theology to concentrated distillates (prooftexts)” he proceeds to do just that by listing nearly a dozen verses, including their original Greek and Hart’s own rendering of them from his own strange, overly-literal translation of the Bible. Unfortunately, his translation doesn’t offer much in terms of exegesis or understanding of these crucial texts.
For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul says, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive,” but this doesn’t mean that through Christ all people shall be brought to eternal life. What it means is that all who are “in Christ” (a phrase Paul often uses for the saved or elect) shall be brought to eternal life. This logic also explains Romans 5:18, wherein Paul says, “As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”
end quote
All people shall become alive in Christ and thus all people shall be saved. This is really just putting the “Christian” in Christian Universalism. It’s true that it does mean that all who are in Christ shall be brought to life, however, it also, literally be extension means, that because all humans are descendants of Adam, then all humans will “be in Christ” aka will become believers in Christ and thus gain their aionion life.
start quote
This refers to life for all believers, or those who are in Christ. We know this because in the previous verse Paul says, “If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.” This is talking about the salvation of all believers, not the salvation of all people. Jesus himself says that he will “draw all men to himself” (John 12:32), but that doesn’t mean that people can’t reject him even after being so drawn. In this passage Jesus also foreshadows his own crucifixion, which may mean that all people will have their sins atoned for on the cross but the grace that Christ accrues for them may not be applied to their souls if they choose to reject it.
end quote
The contradiction here is that they state that salvation is just for the believers. Even though, all humans have been affected by Adam’s trespass. All people will become believers in Christ and thus all people shall be saved.
Otherwise, through this ECT argument it means that there are humans that are somehow not sinners and already perfect besides God, which is a contradiction. Or that somehow God is not inside of all things, which is also a contradiction.
Rom. 11:36 "Of Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS, to whom be glory forever. Amen"
Romans 3:10 NLT 10 As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one.