Post Mortem Opportunity for Salvation

[Alfred Persson]

By calling Abraham "Father" the rich man proves he is not irredeemably wicked.

The Rich Man is clearly sorrowful. He has Christian like concern for his family, that they not end up like he. Moreover, the redeemed in heaven want to comfort the Rich Man (Lk. 16:26), but that would be out of place if he were irredeemably wicked and was being punished eternally for sin. That would be rebellion against God’s judgment (compare: Deut. 19:21).

If the Rich Man knew his torment was eternal, that he had no hope for life.....its much more likely he would curse God and Abraham and everyone else., including Lazarus.

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

[#P]
Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.

1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the fish’s belly.
2 And he said: “I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas, And the floods surrounded me; All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said,`I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.
7 “When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.
8 “Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.”
10 So the LORD spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land. (Jon. 2:1-3:1 NKJ)

Postmortem Opportunity is the point. As Jonah’s soul faints he remembers God implying repentance. God is not like the worthless gods of the nations, mere idols who have eyes to see but see not, ears to hear but hear not and would be of no help at all to Jonah. The LORD of Salvation is in His Holy Temple, ready to impose His will upon even the lowest Sheol.

The entire loses force if God doesn’t hear prayers of repentance in Sheol, forgiving trespass and redeeming the lost. The stated reason God is unlike idols is He reacts to prayer in Sheol. If there is connection to reality, the metaphor is incoherent and potentially disrespectful.

Jewish Tradition found another name for Gehenna in Jonah’s account:

I.19 A. Said R. Joshua b. Levi, “Gehenna has seven names and these are they: Netherworld, destruction, pit, [Slotki:] tumultuous pit, miry clay, shadow of death, and underworld.
B. “ ‘Netherworld’: ‘Out of the belly of the nether world I cried and you heard my voice’ (Jonah. 2:2).-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 3, p. 94). Hendrickson Publishers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

[#O]
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death

“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.” (Hos. 13:14 NKJ)

I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy penalty, O death? O Hades, where is thy sting? comfort is hidden from mine eyes. (Hos. 13:14 LXX)-Greek Septuagint

Postmortem opportunity clearly taught, doubly implied by the context which is so gloomy and the change in tone so abrupt some believe Paul’s application (1 Cor. 15:55) “contextually problematic”. But that was the point, against the strong enemy of death God is victorious, in love He redeems the lost venting His rage at that which separates Him from them. He will show Death no pity.

As Hebrew Scholar Keil points out:

The questions, “Where are thy plagues, O death?” etc., are obviously meant to affirm the conquest or destruction of hell and death…To redeem or ransom from the hand (or power) of hell, i.e., of the under world, the realm of death, is equivalent to depriving hell of its prey, not only by not suffering the living to die, but by bringing back to life those who have fallen victims to hell, i.e., to the region of the dead…. The Apostle Paul has therefore very properly quoted these words in 1 Cor. 15:55, in combination with the declaration in Isa. 25:8, “Death is swallowed up in victory,” to confirm the truth, that at the resurrection of the last day, death will be annihilated, and that which is corruptible changed into immortality.-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 10, p. 104).

 

[Alfred Persson]

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:25-32 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You have brought up my soul from Sheol
2 O LORD my God, I cried to you for help, and you have healed me.
3 O LORD, you have brought up my soul from Sheol (07585 שְׁאוֹל she’owl); you restored me to life (02421 חָיַה chayah) from among those who go down to the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr).
4 Sing praises to the LORD, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Ps. 30:2-4 ESV)

David writes he experienced postmortem opportunity literally. God brought his soul up from Sheol after he cried for help, and he was “healed”. Restored to life “חִיָּה … always means to restore to life that which has apparently or really succumbed to death.”-Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (1996). Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 5, p. 240). Hendrickson.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Thes were preached to while alive, and they mocked not realizing they would account for their mocking to God when dead, and judged according to men in the flesh.

For their reason the Gospel was ALSO preached to them when dead, that they could repent and choose to live according to God in the Spirit:

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:3-6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Peter says Christ preached to the dead, formerly disobedient implies a change from then to when Christ preached, no longer disobedient.

In response to Christ's preaching they gave the answer of a good conscience towards God just as we do and are saved.

That is why Peter saw the antitype of Baptism in this event, they were dead and now alive in Christ, new creatures:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
...
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18-22, 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Click the [#?] after each Bible reference for commentary on scripture reference:

Various Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity is explicit or implicit:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:3-6 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];[#Z]

 

[Hopeful 2]

By calling Abraham "Father" the rich man proves he is not irredeemably wicked.

The Rich Man is clearly sorrowful. He has Christian like concern for his family, that they not end up like he. Moreover, the redeemed in heaven want to comfort the Rich Man (Lk. 16:26), but that would be out of place if he were irredeemably wicked and was being punished eternally for sin. That would be rebellion against God’s judgment (compare: Deut. 19:21).

If the Rich Man knew his torment was eternal, that he had no hope for life.....its much more likely he would curse God and Abraham and everyone else., including Lazarus.

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

The God of all things has given every man a lifetime in which to come to Him before they die.
There will be no over-time in the game of life.
It is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)

 

[Alfred Persson]

It is appointed for men to die once then the judgment that determines the region of Hades/Sheol they wait in, until either the Second Coming of Christ or Judgment Day after His Millennial Kingdom:


There is a section reserved for the very wicked called "the pit" in the OT, or "live according to God in the Spirit" protected from torments where they eagerly wait for resurrection from Hades at the Second Coming of Christ, for their salvation:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Sheol/Hades refers to the “unseen realm” where Hades, “the pit”, “Gehenna”, “Lake of Fire”, “Abyss” etc. are. The “dimension of the dead” as it were. Its divided into sections, fallen angels are in “tartarus”, their offspring are in “prison”, spirits of demons (Nephilim) are in the Abyss, the human dead are in Sheol/Hades unless they are very wicked, in which case they are in “the pit” also called “destruction” “Abaddon”.

It’s the intermediate place where the dead wait for Judgment Day. How they wait, whether its “living according to God in the Spirit” or in torments in the pit, is determined when they die physically:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

For example, the “spirits in prison” or “Men of Renown” (Gen. 6:4) who could not believe Noah’s preaching God would overlook their “Frankenstein” hybrid -angel-human nature, an abomination to God, and so would not repent before the flood. Christ makes a special trip to convince them God could forgive them, if they repent and believe His preaching, JUST AS Church also gave the answer of a good conscience, and so were (as baptism symbolizes) raised up with Christ:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

They now wait with the OT saints and the Church for the 1st Resurrection/gathering of the Church at Christ’s Second Coming, just as do all who “live according to God in the Spirit” (protected from torments) while they wait in Hades for Christ’s salvation.

The Rapture/First Resurrection happens well before the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) which doesn’t happen till after the Millennial Reign of Christ.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15-17 NKJ)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The God of all things has given every man a lifetime in which to come to Him before they die.
There will be no over-time in the game of life.
It is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27)

You left out the context that shows some of the dead, after their judgment, eagerly wait for the Second Coming of Christ to be raised up with the Church at the Rapture:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)


God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful 2]

You left out the context that shows some of the dead, after their judgment, eagerly wait for the Second Coming of Christ to be raised up with the Church at the Rapture:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Paul writes of those still living, and awaiting the return of Jesus and His judgement on the earth.

God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

Again, Paul's writings evoke pictures of the last day.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Paul writes of those still living, and awaiting the return of Jesus and His judgement on the earth.

Again, Paul's writings evoke pictures of the last day.

The parallel: Christ appeared once, was sacrificed once to bear sins; Sinful creatures are destined to die once, and after that face judgment. Note Christ's sacrifice is put after verse 27, after death and judgment which implies Paul is including the dead with those still living, as receiving the benefit of Christ bearing their sins.

Therefore, I read "those still living" don't go to hell, and those in hell can repent and join the living, BOTH eagerly wait for His second coming.

BUT, those "still living" got the benefit of believing in Christ while still living, they were saved "when they believed".

The dead however, wait for Christ's salvation, AT HIS SECOND COMING. Only after He "appear a second time" are they saved from hell.

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 NKJ)

As for the Rapture, Christ brings the resurrected souls of with Him during His second coming, and this includes those "still living" at the time of His return, when they are raptured and changed in a "twinkling of an eye":

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52 NKJ)

So all in Christ, whether with Abraham and Lazarus and the thief "in paradise", or "living according to God in the Spirit" in Hades, are "resurrected" and meet Christ in the air, joining His holy myriads on His trip to the earth to destroy the Beast at Armageddon.

I hope we can participate in the slaughter:

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. (Ps. 110:3 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful 2]

The parallel: Christ appeared once, was sacrificed once to bear sins; Sinful creatures are destined to die once, and after that face judgment. Note Christ's sacrifice is put after verse 27, after death and judgment which implies Paul is including the dead with those still living, as receiving the benefit of Christ bearing their sins.

What do you mean by parallel ?
At the time of Paul's writing, Christ has already provided all that man needed to be free of sin.
But both the living and the dead will wait for the day of judgement.
Some in the grave, and other still alive.
After a man's death, there is no more opportunity to repent of sin.

Therefore, I read "those still living" don't go to hell,

If by "hell" you mean "grave", I agree.
There won't be a need to bury anyone after Christ burns up the old earth.

and those in hell can repent and join the living, BOTH eagerly wait for His second coming.

That is where your false doctrine turns into an accommodation for ongoing sin.

BUT, those "still living" got the benefit of believing in Christ while still living, they were saved "when they believed".

That is the story for all men.
We get a lifetime to turn from darkness and unto light.
But that is all the time we get.

The dead however, wait for Christ's salvation, AT HIS SECOND COMING. Only after He "appear a second time" are they saved from hell.

His second coming is the last day.
What the righteous dead wait for, is a new vessel.
The unrighteous wait for their trip to the lake of fire.

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 NKJ)

The unrighteous dead fear the Lord's return, and their own destruction.

As for the Rapture, Christ brings the resurrected souls of with Him during His second coming, and this includes those "still living" at the time of His return, when they are raptured and changed in a "twinkling of an eye":
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52 NKJ)

I hope He returns sooner than later.

So all in Christ, whether with Abraham and Lazarus and the thief "in paradise", or "living according to God in the Spirit" in Hades, are "resurrected" and meet Christ in the air, joining His holy myriads on His trip to the earth to destroy the Beast at Armageddon.

If by "hades" you mean the "grave", you are right.
But remember, the sinners, those who didn't repent of their sinning, are NOT in Christ.

I hope we can participate in the slaughter:

If you are still a sinner, you are crying out for your own destruction.

 

[follower]

By calling Abraham "Father" the rich man proves he is not irredeemably wicked.

Non sequitur for at least two reasons.
The rich man in the story/parable/ never existed.
The dead are not able to talk to anyone - they know nothing.
This has not changed in two thousand years,
and won't change until the resurrection.
The other reason doesn't apply to the rich man since he was not real.
But for those who sin and are never saved,
they are never saved. They have only terrible judgment to look forward to, same (or similar to) demons who shudder even though they know Jesus is Lord Messiah King of the Jews.

No discussion of false gospels seems proper at all.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Non sequitur for at least two reasons.
The rich man in the story/parable/ never existed.
The dead are not able to talk to anyone - they know nothing.
This has not changed in two thousand years,
and won't change until the resurrection.
The other reason doesn't apply to the rich man since he was not real.
But for those who sin and are never saved,
they are never saved. They have only terrible judgment to look forward to, same (or similar to) demons who shudder even though they know Jesus is Lord Messiah King of the Jews.

No discussion of false gospels seems proper at all.

The reasons you gave are contrary to everything we know about parables. They communicate truth via symbols. It doesn't matter the "Rich Man" is a symbol of all uncharitable rich, the point Christ made was the reversal of fortune that happens after death.

You claim the dead can't talk, but Jesus contradicts you in the parable.

Moreover, you assume the gospel applies to you. But you weren't alive when Christ and His apostles preached it. That is the same for many of the dead, they lived before Christ came, or in countries that didn't hear the gospel preached. Even today some parts of the earth haven't been reached by the gospel of Christ.

What makes you better than them? Why should God save you, and not save those who weren't alive when the Gospel was originally preached?

 

[Alfred Persson]

What do you mean by parallel ?

Just as it was appointed for Christ to offer Himself ONCE, at the end of the age to bear the sins of many born since the foundation of the world, so also the parallel, it is appointed for all human beings to die ONCE, then a judgment is made if Christ's sacrifice bears their sins, so many eagerly wait for Christ's second appearance, for salvation:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

Its implied all who repent and believe "pass this judgment". After being judged according to men in the flesh, they live according to God in the Spirit, eagerly waiting in Hades for Christ's second coming, for salvation.

The gospel of Christ isn't peached only to the living, it is ALSO preached to the dead:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Just as it was appointed for Christ to offer Himself ONCE, at the end of the age...

"End of the age" ?
The only age that ended at the sacrifice of Jesus was the age of Mosaic Law.

... to bear the sins of many born since the foundation of the world, so also the parallel, it is appointed for all human beings to die ONCE, then a judgment is made if Christ's sacrifice bears their sins, so many eagerly wait for Christ's second appearance, for salvation:

All await judgement, some to eternal life and others to damnation.
If Christ bore anyone's sins, it is because they submitted to Him during their lives.
Sinners don't fit that pattern.

Its implied all who repent and believe "pass this judgment".

You do realize, I hope, that sinners haven't repented ?

After being judged according to men in the flesh, they live according to God in the Spirit,

You made up a false scenario.
All men will be judged.
Only those who submit to Him now, walk in the Spirit.
That walk occurs before death.

eagerly waiting in Hades for Christ's second coming, for salvation.

Salvation is only available to the living.
Your doctrine is just another accommodation for more sinning.

The gospel of Christ isn't peached only to the living, it is ALSO preached to the dead:
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

You have taken that verse out of its context.
The preaching of 1 Peter 4:6 occurred millennia before Christ lived on earth, and was to the prophets who looked for the coming of the Messiah..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:10-11)
Those prophets were dead by the time Peter wrote of them.