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The church and scripture!

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Only Jesus Christ: the way, the truth, the life!
Catholicism Overseer
It’s impossible to reject the church from the scriptures cos the church wrote the New Testament scriptures!

The church decided what is and what is not scripture!

The scriptures support the church!

The church alone can give interpretation of scripture!

The apostolic church was founded and existed and exercised authority in teaching, governance, and sanctifying souls before the New Testament was written!
 
Christ and His church are one inseparable unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 acts 1:8 eph 5:24 eph 5:32

To reject the apostolic church and divine and catholic doctrine is to reject Christ who founded the church and revealed the truth!

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19
One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH! 1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone! Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20

The church is of divine origin and cannot be corrupted or reformed by the tradition of men! Truth is immutable!

The church the only ark of salvation, the household of faith and is not spiritual to the exclusion of the physical or invisible to the exclusion of the visible but, visible, invisible, spiritual, physical, and supernatural of divine origin and therefore divine preservation! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Jn 10:16

Visible and invisible
Spiritual and physical
And supernatural the means of grace and the ark of salvation!


A city set on a hill: Matt 5:14
Light of the world: Matt 5:14
Pillar of truth: 1 Tim 3:15
Teach and sanctify all men: Matt 28:19

Unity of faith!

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic (succeeding from Christ, Peter and the apostles)

The apostolic church was founded and existed and exercised authority in teaching, governance, and sanctifying souls before the New Testament was written!

The apostolic church does not require the scriptures to know the truth!

The apostolic church wrote the scripture!

The apostolic church was taught by Christ in person for three years!

The apostolic church was founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles!
Matt 16:28-19 & 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

Christ founded the apostolic church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19
 
The scripture says many of the same things of the apostolic church as it does Christ!

Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ and His church are one acts 9:4 eph 5:32 and the only means of salvation! Matt 28:19


Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 Jn 15:1 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one: Acts 9:4 mystical communion: eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20 acts 1:8

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
 
Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 6:33
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:2
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture itself says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15
 
Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Not by scripture alone!

Sacred Scripture yes!
Sacred Scripture alone no!
 
Unwritten Word of God!

The Unwritten word of God (divine revelation) the oral, verbal, preaching / teaching authority of Christ in His apostles is found on almost every page of the New Testament!

“Sacred scripture is the only authority”.

Not if Christ commanded the apostles to teach all men. (Matt 28:19)

Example:

Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. (How did they preach the word if there as no scripture yet?)

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
 
Unwritten Word of God!

The Unwritten word of God (divine revelation) the oral, verbal, preaching / teaching authority of Christ in His apostles is found on almost every page of the New Testament!

“Sacred scripture is the only authority”.

Not if Christ commanded the apostles to teach all men. (Matt 28:19)

Example:

Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. (How did they preach the word if there as no scripture yet?)

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
But that begs two main questions:
1)Did the necessary oral tradition become scripture as later NT books?

Throughout the New Testament what first was apostolic oral tradition was eventually written down and became scripture we have today:

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? (2Th 2:5 NKJ)

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. A.D.49-50

Mattew 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.-A.D. 50-60

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.- A.D.50-60

1 Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, 12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. -A.D. 51

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. -A.D. 51-52

1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.-A.D. 55.

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, - A.D.60-61

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.-A.D. 62

Acts 20:35 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. -A.D. 62

2 Pet 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:-A.D.67-68

Jude 1:17-18 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.-A.D.68-70

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.-A.D. 80-90

John 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.- A.D.80-90


THAT All the necessary oral tradition become scripture FOLLOWS from this elegant statement:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Therefore, as God wrote the Bible we have today "that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work", all necessary apostolic tradition must have become scripture.


2)Did the church preserve apostolic oral tradition unchanged?

NO, they did not. Apart from the Bible there is no authoritative text of apostolic tradition.

If Catholics had the text of "apostolic oral tradition", they would mass produce it in a book for everyone to read.
 
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But that begs two main questions:
1)Did the necessary oral tradition become scripture as later NT books?

Throughout the New Testament what first was apostolic oral tradition was eventually written down and became scripture we have today:

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? (2Th 2:5 NKJ)

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. A.D.49-50

Mattew 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.-A.D. 50-60

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.- A.D.50-60

1 Thessalonians 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, 12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. -A.D. 51

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. -A.D. 51-52

1 Corinthians 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.-A.D. 55.

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, - A.D.60-61

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.-A.D. 62

Acts 20:35 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. -A.D. 62

2 Pet 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:-A.D.67-68

Jude 1:17-18 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.-A.D.68-70

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.-A.D. 80-90

John 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.- A.D.80-90


THAT All the necessary oral tradition become scripture FOLLOWS from this elegant statement:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Therefore, as God wrote the Bible we have today "that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work", all necessary apostolic tradition must have become scripture.


2)Did the church preserve apostolic oral tradition unchanged?

NO, they did not. Apart from the Bible there is no authoritative text of apostolic tradition.

If Catholics had the text of "apostolic oral tradition", they would mass produce it in a book for everyone to read.
You will find it in decrees of councils
Creeds
And dogma

Some of the apostles wrote as the spirit lead but nowhere does it say all apostles wrote or all the tradition was written, and the New Testament is tradition 2 thes 2:15
 
You will find it in decrees of councils
Creeds
And dogma

Some of the apostles wrote as the spirit lead but nowhere does it say all apostles wrote or all the tradition was written, and the New Testament is tradition 2 thes 2:15
Apostolic oral tradition not already written down in scripture would have "quote" marks and identify which apostle spoke the words.

Where does that exist in the decrees of councils, creeds and dogma? Copy paste the text here please.

If the claimed "apostolic oral tradition" can't be copy pasted here for me to read, it doesn't exist (aka "false advertising").

Unlike some cultures that passed on history and teaching orally because they didn't know how to write, that wasn't the case for us. The church knew how to write "oral tradition" down and pass it on to the next generation. So why didn't they do that with "apostolic oral tradition"?

"Its elementary my dear Watson, they never had it."
 
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Apostolic tradition would have "quote" marks identifying the precise words an apostle spoke. Where does that exist in the decrees of councils, creeds and dogma? Copy paste the text here please.

If the claimed "apostolic oral tradition" can't be copy pasted here for me to read, it doesn't exist (aka "false advertising" ).
We know the truth if hear the apostles and error is f we reject them

Apostles commanded to teach and sanctify all miles unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

Apostolic doctrine acts 1:8 & 2:42

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Scripture and the apostles are the same effect, no difference

1 John 1:4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
 
We know the truth if hear the apostles and error is f we reject them

Apostles commanded to teach and sanctify all miles unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

Apostolic doctrine acts 1:8 & 2:42

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Scripture and the apostles are the same effect, no difference

1 John 1:4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
A false advertisement is not truth. Either Rome has "apostolic oral tradition" not found in scripture, or it doesn't.

You cite scripture that demands we heed Scripture:

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2 NKJ)

"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deut. 12:32 NKJ)


Rome doesn't have apostolic oral tradition. If they did, they would print it in a book and distribute it to everyone. What they have are their own opinions, speculations and innovations.
 
A false advertisement is not truth. Either Rome has "apostolic oral tradition" not found in scripture, or it doesn't.

You cite scripture that demands we heed Scripture:

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2 NKJ)

"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deut. 12:32 NKJ)


Rome doesn't have apostolic oral tradition. If they did, they would print it in a book and distribute it to everyone. What they have are their own opinions, speculations and innovations.
I stuck with “scripture alone” for your benefit

And it’s all oral tradition some of the apostles wrote some truths

Christ taught the entire fullness of truth and Christian faith by oral tradition

Tradition: every word the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ!
 
It’s impossible to reject the church from the scriptures cos the church wrote the New Testament scriptures!

The church decided what is and what is not scripture!

The scriptures support the church!

The church alone can give interpretation of scripture!

The apostolic church was founded and existed and exercised authority in teaching, governance, and sanctifying souls before the New Testament was written!

Catholicism is not found in scripture.



JLB
 
I stuck with “scripture alone” for your benefit

And it’s all oral tradition some of the apostles wrote some truths

Christ taught the entire fullness of truth and Christian faith by oral tradition

Tradition: every word the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ!
"Some of the apostles wrote some truths"? Even the Catholic church would say that is heresy.

Its obvious Catholicism's distinctives cannot be found in the Bible. Only the 70% or so that all Christians believe, is found in scripture. The remainder unique to Catholics, isn't there.
 
Please provide a basis for the current New Testament canon that is independent of the Apostolic tradition transmitted though the Catholic Church.

The New Testament in its present form would not exist without the Church.
 

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