Bible Study BLASPHEMY of the HOLY SPIRIT = The Unpardonable Sin??

[atpollard]

You like many others follow the teachings of man.


I choose to follow the doctrine of Christ.

Then you have given away everything you have to the poor and followed Jesus ... and live a communal lifestyle like in the book of Acts ... and you hate your mother and father ... and you have cut off your hand and gouged out an eye, right?

I thought you wanted to communicate.
Your foolish statement indicates that you have only come to sow discord and to offer empty rhetorical insults, so you get tit for tat and I waste no more time on you.

[You have yet to properly exegete Ephesians 2 ... for someone that only follows the doctrine of Christ, you ignore vast swaths of Scripture to pound the drum on a few pet verses plucked from context.]

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG,,,
The above highlighted is a very interesting comment, which I have never thought about.

You say one has to know there IS a Holy Spirit in order to blaspheme against Him.

But, have you considered, all those that do not believe, are, in effect, rejecting the Holy Spirit...they did not have to be a Christian first, or even know that He is part of the Godhead.

Rejecting the Holy Spirit IS the Unpardonable Sin which will lead to being eternally lost.


The principles of the Doctrine of Christ.
What are they?
This will make a good thread....



So if one is mature and enlightened, they will not fall away and/or blaspheme the Holy Spirit? I do believe that the Jews in Hebrews 6 were not mature in their new faith.

How can they reject something that they never heard of. It's like what Paul asked the disciples if they received the Holy Spirit since they believed, but they said they never heard their was any Holy Spirit, Acts 19:1, 2. You can't reject or blasphemy against something that you didn't know existed whether you are a Christian or not a Christian. Those who do not believe in Christ even though they have heard the preaching of the Gospel have already damned themselves.

The principles of the doctrine of Christ would be that of the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that have witnessed and testify of what Christ has taught them first as He being God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There are three warnings in Hebrews as the first one found in 2:1-4 is the danger of neglect. The second warning is found in 3:7-4:13 as the danger of unbelief and the third warning in 5:11-6:20 is the danger of not maturing.

The letter of Hebrews 6 is addressed to the Hebrews/Jews as a warning for their need to mature so they would not fall away like the foolish Galatians in Galatians 3:1-3.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree.

Personally I believe John MacAuther has blasphemed the Holy Spirit many times, so much so, his heart has waxed hard, seared as with a hot iron that he freely does it without hesitation.

Here is a sermon of his where he is teaching on this subject, “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit”, where he goes down a list of things such as speaking in tongues, dreams, visions.... attributing all to demons.

He is a cessationist and a hard core Calvinist,

He openly says anyone who has these spiritual experiences is operating by demons.


Very sad.



JLB

J,
You bring up a very good point...
But it brings up a difficult question and one I can't believe we can answer. This is all I'll say.

I've said many times that Calvinism changes the nature of God....attributing to Him everything - even all the evil we can think of.

The O.T. does speak about a God that has men, women and children killed and murdered. Unless we can come to a reconciliation between the two above ideas,,,,we cannot go forward. I HAVE come to an understanding which is not mine alone...but is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

I believe that IF God created evil, or even calamity (Isaiah) I would stop worshipping that God immediate. I could not worship a God that has brought hardship into my life and causes all sorts of evil.

Although I do NOT understand why He allows evil....I can be confident that He does not CAUSE it. The reasons will be known in the afterlife.

Calvinism DOES attribute to God the evils of satan.

 

[GodsGrace]

How can they reject something that they never heard of. It's like what Paul asked the disciples if they received the Holy Spirit since they believed, but they said they never heard their was any Holy Spirit, Acts 19:1, 2. You can't reject or blasphemy against something that you didn't know existed whether you are a Christian or not a Christian. Those who do not believe in Christ even though they have heard the preaching of the Gospel have already damned themselves.

I refer back to Romans 1:19-20, which I've come to realize we just do not give enough credit to.

Everyone has heard of God, in one way or another. God has always revealed Himself. The American Indian sang to the Great Spirit.

Each man has always had the opportunity to believe in God, this is why each man is without excuse. Romans 1:20b

So, I have to believe that REJECTING the Holy Spirit, Who is God, is the U.S.,,,which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit for rejecting Him.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

IF one should fall away, and then want to come back to God...it IS possible. I believe Hebrews 6:4 is taken out of context --- of how Paul (or whoever wrote it) meant this statement.

First of all, yes, Paul probably did not write this epistle.
Secondly, it was addressed to the Jews that had left the religion they knew and grew up with and began to have doubts and wanted to go back to the old ways. This is why it states that they trample Him underfoot,,,verse 29.

Jesus said to forgive 70X7. There is no end to God's forgiveness when we repent and turn away from the evil one. Matthew 18:22

Also, this idea that we cannot repent twice annuls one of the most important parables in the N.T. : The Prodigal Son....who RETURNS to the Father and is found AGAIN. Luke 15:24

This makes a person that has fallen away feel that he cannot return to God... this would be a sad statement indeed.

There are three warnings in Hebrews as the first one found in 2:1-4 is the danger of neglect. The second warning is found in 3:7-4:13 as the danger of unbelief and the third warning in 5:11-6:20 is the danger of not maturing.

The letter of Hebrews 6 is addressed to the Hebrews/Jews as a warning for their need to mature so they would not fall away like the foolish Galatians in Galatians 3:1-3.

The first paragraph is very instructive!

As to the second....I can think of one just off-hand that was very mature and yet fell.

 

[JLB]

Then you have given away everything you have to the poor and followed Jesus ...

Can you provide the scripture where Jesus instructed the Church to do this?


JLB

 

[JLB]

and live a communal lifestyle like in the book of Acts ..

Can you provide the scripture where Jesus taught the Church to live a communal lifestyle?



JLB

 

[JLB]

One cannot have saving faith and not be saved.

I disagree.


One has saving faith when they hear the Gospel.

One must act in obedience and believe what they hear in order to be saved.

Faith comes by hearing....


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17

• And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
• So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You have to be saved, reborn, in order to believe the Gospel, THERFORE if you believe the Gospel it is BECAUSE you have been saved, reborn.

Again please explain to us how a person becomes saved, born again, BEFORE they believe the Gospel, since believing the Gospel is the result of being born again.


Maybe if you provided the scripture for your belief it would help us to understand.



JLB

 

[Boaz]

Again please explain to us how a person becomes saved, born again, BEFORE they believe the Gospel, since believing the Gospel is the result of being born again.


Maybe if you provided the scripture for your belief it would help us to understand.



JLB

I provided the scriptures. I explained what I mean, two or three times. Not going too do it again.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I provided the scriptures. I explained what I mean, two or three times. Not going too do it again.

always do it again, out of love

 

[Boaz]

always do it again, out of love

It is out of love that I'm NOT doing it again. I am not having a theological argument with this person and you would know that if you read all our posts back and forth. They on the other hand it appears, are trying to start one. In any case, they are so stuck on that one thing, how can you be saved before you believe, which I never said in the first place. I was merely offering a POSSIBLE alternative interpretation. That the Holy Spirit causes a new birth in a person and that is WHY they believe when they hear. Rather than it is OUR own believing that causes the new birth.
I began the conversation with scriptures, explained over and over what I meant and none of it penetrated because being stuck, and wanting only to argue, really, that their view was right, and mine made no sense, they finally, typically, kept falling back on that same old cop out. That I still haven't explained and maybe if I gave scripture they could understand. The same cop out of saying a contradict myself and telling me I have said things I did not say. It is a hopeless, useless circular "conversation" and if I don't want to continue it, pretty sure that's my business.

 

[JLB]

I provided the scriptures. I explained what I mean, two or three times. Not going too do it again.

Ok, your not obligated to explain anything, because you have a freewill to choose not to.

Your post plainly says, that “I don’t understand”.

I’m trying to understand how you came to the conclusion, that a person is saved first, before they hear and believe the Gospel.

You just don't understand what I am saying. You have to be saved, reborn, in order to believe the Gospel, THERFORE if you believe the Gospel it is BECAUSE you have been saved, reborn.

I agree that a person is born again by the Holy Spirit.


I still don’t see any scriptures that a person who has yet to believe the Gospel, is born again.


That would mean “unbelievers” are somehow Born Again, then later on they believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I began the conversation with scriptures, explained over and over what I meant and none of it penetrated because being stuck, and wanting only to argue, really, that their view was right,

Come on, bro, we are all just sharing our perspective here.


I happen to believe that a person is saved BECAUSE they believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

I personally believe that salvation is the result of believing.


You on the other hand believe that believing is the result of being saved.


That’s your choice.


If Jesus said, lest they be saved and then believe, I would be right their with you in that belief.









JLB

 

[JLB]

The O.T. does speak about a God that has men, women and children killed and murdered. Unless we can come to a reconciliation between the two above ideas

One of the explanations for killing of men women and children, is these folks were not purely human and were perpetuating an evil generational culture.


This is what the giants were in the promised land.


Jesus said it this way -


The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Matthew 13:38

• but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You have yet to properly exegete Ephesians 2 ... for someone that only follows the doctrine of Christ, you ignore vast swaths of Scripture to pound the drum on a few pet verses plucked from context.]

Do you believe Paul, taught something different than the doctrine of Christ?

The whole New Testament is the expounding and teaching what Christ taught His Apostles.


Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you

Paul, Peter, John, James, and Luke all taught what Jesus commanded them to teach; The Doctrine of Christ.


Very serious matter. I hope we can come to some type of common understanding about this, so that there is unity among us. Please.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

JLB

 

[Boaz]

Come on, bro, we are all just sharing our perspective here.


I happen to believe that a person is saved BECAUSE they believe.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

I personally believe that salvation is the result of believing.


You on the other hand believe that believing is the result of being saved.


That’s your choice.


If Jesus said, lest they be saved and then believe, I would be right their with you in that belief.









JLB

I'm not a bro and believing IS being saved. Our difference is not in logistics, or the order of salvation it is on WHO does the saving. Us or the Holy Spirit. And since you can't even get that straight in your head, why should I continue? I AM NOT going to debate you on who is right and who is wrong. Besides this back and forth between us is completely OFF TOPIC of this thread. Start a different one if you insist on this particular debate.

 

[Boaz]

Ok, your not obligated to explain anything, because you have a freewill to choose not to.

Your post plainly says, that “I don’t understand”.

I’m trying to understand how you came to the conclusion, that a person is saved first, before they hear and believe the Gospel.







I agree that a person is born again by the Holy Spirit.


I still don’t see any scriptures that a person who has yet to believe the Gospel, is born again.


That would mean “unbelievers” are somehow Born Again, then later on they believe.



JLB

Once again, you have shown that you don't even come close to understanding what I have said. You keep saying I have said things I DID NOT say and you will continue to do so. It is either density or deflection. Don't bother to reply. I won't answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the explanations for killing of men women and children, is these folks were not purely human and were perpetuating an evil generational culture.


This is what the giants were in the promised land.


Jesus said it this way -


The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Matthew 13:38

• but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

JLB

I agree with the above...
it's not how I understand the O.T. but this is another matter.
Not all theologians agree with my belief... but some do.
When I heard it I was happy to have much confusion about God cleared up.

 

[Boaz]

J,
You bring up a very good point...
But it brings up a difficult question and one I can't believe we can answer. This is all I'll say.

I've said many times that Calvinism changes the nature of God....attributing to Him everything - even all the evil we can think of.

The O.T. does speak about a God that has men, women and children killed and murdered. Unless we can come to a reconciliation between the two above ideas,,,,we cannot go forward. I HAVE come to an understanding which is not mine alone...but is not accepted by the majority of Christians.

I believe that IF God created evil, or even calamity (Isaiah) I would stop worshipping that God immediate. I could not worship a God that has brought hardship into my life and causes all sorts of evil.

Although I do NOT understand why He allows evil....I can be confident that He does not CAUSE it. The reasons will be known in the afterlife.

Calvinism DOES attribute to God the evils of satan.

John MaCArthur is neither a Calvinist nor a hard core Calvinist.
He is a Dispensationlist. Just an FYI.

 

[JLB]

Once again, you have shown that you don't even come close to understanding what I have said. You keep saying I have said things I DID NOT say and you will continue to do so. It is either density or deflection. Don't bother to reply. I won't answer.

Wow, I truly apologize if I have misrepresented you.


I went by your words in your post that you said.

You have to be saved, reborn, in order to believe the Gospel, THERFORE if you believe the Gospel it is BECAUSE you have been saved, reborn.

Therefore if you believe the Gospel, it is BECAUSE you HAVE BEEN saved.


If that is what you believe, then so be it.


I believe that a person must believe first, then as a result of their believing, they are saved.


I also believe this is what most Christians believe, and I KNOW for a fact this is what the Bible teaches.




Thanks, and God bless you.



JLB