drunkeness

[civilwarbuff]

Which begs the question:
Why don't you take an alcoholic drink with you to church?
I mean, you've been vehemently defending your right to drink anywhere, so why not? Really. It's an honest question.

Now maybe you can understand the point that Paul is making in Romans 14 and how it relates to alcohol consumption.

I am not vehemently defending anything; I don't drink while driving down the road or when I go out firing range or operating dangerous equipment or when children are in my direct care; there are many times and situations when I don't drink....however I have listened to a few pastors drone on that have made me want to drink during church .

 

[civilwarbuff]

Are you going to purposely ignore the actual issue that brought judgment upon them?

No I addressed why Paul had an issue with what they were doing, it was because they denigrated the communion meal not because they were inconsiderate of others. Does your church teach this or is this something you came up with? You do realize in the very early church communion was a meal not just a crust of bread and sip of wine as we do today?...but a full meal just as Messiah and the disciples did.

 

[JohnDB]

We, as Christians, always flinch when someone points a wagging finger at us. We know that we don't measure up to have a friend like Jesus.
But that's why we do...We admit our shortcomings.

God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud.

If being a Christian was just about following rules such as don't touch, don't taste, dont________ then there wouldn't be anyone in Heaven.

Every last Patriarch in scripture had issues. Some were absolutely annoying with their shortcomings.
But all had a great unmistakable love for God. Not just a said relationship...But a hard core relationship.

And that's the difference between knowing on a personal level of what you can and can't do. There's a lot of things I can't do. But there's a lot of things that I can do that others can't because of their lacking relationship.

Fear/respect for God is about majoring in the majors and minoring the minor things.
Alcohol consumption for the vast majority of people is a minor. We are careful with consumption because DUI is expensive in a lot of ways.

Majoring in Love, grace, compassion, loving kindness, and forgiveness...That tells us who is actually part of the Kingdom and who is just faking it to "join the Christian club".
We know them by their fruits...Not the things they abstain from.

 

[Wrg1405]

We, as Christians, always flinch when someone points a wagging finger at us. We know that we don't measure up to have a friend like Jesus.
But that's why we do...We admit our shortcomings.

God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud.

If being a Christian was just about following rules such as don't touch, don't taste, dont________ then there wouldn't be anyone in Heaven.

Every last Patriarch in scripture had issues. Some were absolutely annoying with their shortcomings.
But all had a great unmistakable love for God. Not just a said relationship...But a hard core relationship.

And that's the difference between knowing on a personal level of what you can and can't do. There's a lot of things I can't do. But there's a lot of things that I can do that others can't because of their lacking relationship.

Fear/respect for God is about majoring in the majors and minoring the minor things.
Alcohol consumption for the vast majority of people is a minor. We are careful with consumption because DUI is expensive in a lot of ways.

Majoring in Love, grace, compassion, loving kindness, and forgiveness...That tells us who is actually part of the Kingdom and who is just faking it to "join the Christian club".
We know them by their fruits...Not the things they abstain from.

Nicely said

 

[Wrg1405]

I got a question for you.
Since public nudity is pretty much legal over there, have you ever had a topless woman come to church?

Is lack of dress, or excessive adornment a problem over there in the church (the real church, not in the 'churches of the world')?

Yes I saw a topless woman in church once.

 

[Wrg1405]

Nudity is legal on this side??
I'll defer to Wrg.
Not by me...

In certain places yes it is.

Most public beaches permit topless bathing for women. Unless a sign is up the days it's not permitted then it's accepted.

There are public and private beaches for nude bathing. The general rule is all that who are on the said particular beach should be naked.

There are also naturist campsites in the U.K. as well.

And finally it's perfectly legal and acceptable to be starkers in ones own home.

 

[Wrg1405]

Deuteronomy 14:26 (NKJV)
26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

 

[Wrg1405]

According to my research I found the following

The 247 references to wine and strong drink in the Bible can be divided into 3 broad categories: positive references, negative references, and neutral references. We will first summarize these categories and then examine them in detail.

Summary of references to wine in Scripture
On the negative side, there are 17 warnings against abusing alcohol, 19 examples of people abusing alcohol, 3 references to selecting leaders, and one verse advocating abstinence if drinking will cause a brother to stumble. Total negative references: 40, or 16%.

On the positive side, there are 59 references to the commonly accepted practice of drinking wine (and strong drink) with meals, 27 references to the abundance of wine as an example of God's blessing, 20 references to the loss of wine and strong drink as an example of God's curse, 25 references to the use of wine in offerings and sacrifices, 9 references to wine being used as a gift, and 5 metaphorical references to wine as a basis for a favorable comparison. Total positive references: 145, or 59%.

In what could be considered neutral references, there are 33 symbolic references ("the wine of His wrath," etc.), 21 references to vows of abstinence, 4 references to people falsely accused of being drunk, and 4 references which don't seem to fit a category. Total neutral references: 62, or 25%.

 

[civilwarbuff]

According to my research I found the following

The 247 references to wine and strong drink in the Bible can be divided into 3 broad categories: positive references, negative references, and neutral references. We will first summarize these categories and then examine them in detail.

Summary of references to wine in Scripture
On the negative side, there are 17 warnings against abusing alcohol, 19 examples of people abusing alcohol, 3 references to selecting leaders, and one verse advocating abstinence if drinking will cause a brother to stumble. Total negative references: 40, or 16%.

On the positive side, there are 59 references to the commonly accepted practice of drinking wine (and strong drink) with meals, 27 references to the abundance of wine as an example of God's blessing, 20 references to the loss of wine and strong drink as an example of God's curse, 25 references to the use of wine in offerings and sacrifices, 9 references to wine being used as a gift, and 5 metaphorical references to wine as a basis for a favorable comparison. Total positive references: 145, or 59%.

In what could be considered neutral references, there are 33 symbolic references ("the wine of His wrath," etc.), 21 references to vows of abstinence, 4 references to people falsely accused of being drunk, and 4 references which don't seem to fit a category. Total neutral references: 62, or 25%.

Quite the researcher.....thanks.....

 

[Wrg1405]

Quite the researcher.....thanks.....

I can post you the link should you wish.

The article itself then links through to a list of all bible verses that mention alcohol or fermented drinks

 

[Wrg1405]

Quite the researcher.....thanks.....

Just so you know it's not my work.
I'm not that clever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have listened to a few pastors drone on that have made me want to drink during church .

And so I ask again, why don't you drink alcohol in church?

Yes I saw a topless woman in church once.

(I forgot why I asked. )

You do realize in the very early church communion was a meal not just a crust of bread and sip of wine as we do today?

Oh, good. I don't have to explain that part.

No I addressed why Paul had an issue with what they were doing, it was because they denigrated the communion meal not because they were inconsiderate of others. Does your church teach this or is this something you came up with?

The passage plainly says what they were doing that caused them to be judged with sickness and death:

"21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing?
33So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment."
(1 Corinthians 11:21-22,33-34 NASB bold mine)

The point is, if the judgment on the Christian from God is this severe for the offense against a brother spoken of above, how much more so for those who despise the church of God by not keeping their alcoholic consumption a secret when it would otherwise harm another person. But many Christians make it clear by their own words that they essentially don't care about what Paul said about potentially harming another person through the exercise of their legitimate Christian freedoms.

Majoring in Love, grace, compassion, loving kindness, and forgiveness...That tells us who is actually part of the Kingdom and who is just faking it to "join the Christian club".
We know them by their fruits...Not the things they abstain from.

You're missing it here, John.
Paul makes it very clear that abstention for the sake of a brother's welfare is indeed to love them:

"15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles." (Romans 14:15,21 NASB bold mine)

So the opposite of what you said can actually be true. Abstention can actually be the loving and compassionate thing to do. Freedom does not automatically signify you have a free and unhindered loving relationship with God and not a distant, legalistic one. As we can see, abstention is not categorically a sign of loveless legalism. Quite the opposite in fact when it comes to touchy areas like alcohol consumption. I have noticed over the years that this message seems to fall largely on deaf ears in the church (I mean on line, at least). Defense of the freedoms and rights to do things seems to always take precedence over the welfare of others. "10Love does no wrong to a neighbor" (Romans 13:10 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

According to my research I found the following

The 247 references to wine and strong drink in the Bible can be divided into 3 broad categories: positive references, negative references, and neutral references. We will first summarize these categories and then examine them in detail.

Summary of references to wine in Scripture
On the negative side, there are 17 warnings against abusing alcohol, 19 examples of people abusing alcohol, 3 references to selecting leaders, and one verse advocating abstinence if drinking will cause a brother to stumble. Total negative references: 40, or 16%.

On the positive side, there are 59 references to the commonly accepted practice of drinking wine (and strong drink) with meals, 27 references to the abundance of wine as an example of God's blessing, 20 references to the loss of wine and strong drink as an example of God's curse, 25 references to the use of wine in offerings and sacrifices, 9 references to wine being used as a gift, and 5 metaphorical references to wine as a basis for a favorable comparison. Total positive references: 145, or 59%.

In what could be considered neutral references, there are 33 symbolic references ("the wine of His wrath," etc.), 21 references to vows of abstinence, 4 references to people falsely accused of being drunk, and 4 references which don't seem to fit a category. Total neutral references: 62, or 25%.

Yes, there is no issue with the fact that alcohol consumption is a legitimate Christian right.
What Christians fail to see is that this Christian right to consume alcohol does not trump the welfare of those around us. That is the issue being raised here. The exercise of that right must be forsaken or hidden to uphold the much greater duty of the Christian to not harm his neighbor through the exercise of their freedom(s). I know, it's not a popular truth in this age of rights and freedoms.

“Is not this a free country?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Have not I a right to swing my arm?”

“Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.”

John Finch​

 

[Edward]

No I addressed why Paul had an issue with what they were doing, it was because they denigrated the communion meal not because they were inconsiderate of others. Does your church teach this or is this something you came up with? You do realize in the very early church communion was a meal not just a crust of bread and sip of wine as we do today?...but a full meal just as Messiah and the disciples did.

I didnt know that. Interesting.

 

[civilwarbuff]

This is beginning to sound like a broken record.....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I didnt know that. Interesting.

Yes, it's called the Passover meal.
Thanks to the early C_______ Church, it was outlawed.
They are the reason everyone thinks it's a sin to 'do' the law.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes, it's called the Passover meal.
Thanks to the early C_______ Church, it was outlawed.
They are the reason everyone thinks it's a sin to 'do' the law.

Dude, you think Catholic is a dirty word? The word catholic was used to describe the early church; it means universal....the church catholic/universal....just because the RCC co-opted it does not mean it is a swear word.

They are the reason everyone thinks it's a sin to 'do' the law.

I would be interested to hear what you mean by this.....'do the law'?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I would be interested to hear what you mean by this.....'do the law'?

Passover, Sabbath keeping, etc.

 

[daninthelionsden]

When I was drinking 4oz of tequila a day, I began cutting back just a tiny bit everyday til I quit. I also asked the Lord to help me. He did this by making me allergic to the ingredients of beer, wine and hard liquor . If I don't watch out when I drink I wind up with a sore throat and a general ill feeling the next day and that is after just one drink. Drinking several drinks sounds to me about as pleasant as taking a roll in a pile of pollen.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Passover, Sabbath keeping, etc.

So you believe we are to keep OT law?....all of it?.....some of it?...none of it?