Bible Study Falling Away - Departure

[ByGraceThruFaith]

Falling Away - Departure: same definition

Below find : 4 Bible translations pre 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

A falling away/departure from what? The Christian faith or any particular place, earth?)

KJV Dictionary Definition: DEPARTURE, n.

1. The act of going away; a moving from or leaving a place; as a departure from London.

2. Death; decease; removal from the present life.

The time of my departure is at hand. 2 Tim. 4.
(MY QUESTION: Departing from the faith? Nope!)

(NOTE: act of going away, leaving a place, removal from the present life. Nothing about apostasy mentioned in KJ Bible Dictionary Definition for departure

1599 Geneva Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
(NOTE: Assembling/gathering together UNTO him/Christ. The catching-up in 1 Thes 4:16-17 is the biggest single gathering at/to that point in time/history)

2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
(NOTE: John 14:1-3 Jesus while explaing His coming for the Church says be not troubled. Secondly the day of Christ or the Day of the Lord lasts 1000 yrs See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4. Begings with the 70th week of Daniel, 7 years of tribulation. 1 Thess 4:16 & these 1st 7 verses in 2 Thes 2 teach the departure/catching-up/rapture must come before the man of sin is revealed & the tribulation begins)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
(NOTE: I've posted here 4 Bibles written before 1611 KJV. They all say a departure (catching-up = rapture) comes first. Then the man of sin will be revealed)

4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
(NOTE: The revealing of the man of sin will happen after the Churches departure)

5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(NOTE: Again read John 14:1-3)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with the supernatural power/authority to do this restraining)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
(NOTE: It's the Holy Spirit Who lives/dwells within each believer that is withholding/restraining the son of perdition/man of sins arrival. When Christ's Holy Spirit filled Body of Christ/Church departs/is caught-up/raptured. Then no restraints for sin remain. The man of sin will simultaneously be cast out of heaven Rev 12:7 and hurled to earth)

Genesis 6:3 (A) The LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

Find 3 more pre 1611 Bible translations stating departure. No falling away/apostasy mentioned

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

Final thought:
Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

More Examples:

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers (the Church is the Bride of Christ), and shut thy doors about thee & hide thyself as it were for a little moment, ""until the wrath be past"".
(NOTE: Believers go to The New Jerusalem Revelation 21. The place Jesus goes to prepare for us in (John 14:3)

The NT Body of Christ/Church departs meeting the LORD in the air = is caught-up/raptured & delivered for the coming wrath. The man of sin is then revealed, and the coming wrath for a rebellious, Christ rejecting, unbelieving world will begin.

 

[JLB]

Falling Away - Departure: same definition

Below find : 4 Bible translations pre 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

A falling away/departure from what? The Christian faith or any particular place, earth?)

KJV Dictionary Definition: DEPARTURE, n.

1. The act of going away; a moving from or leaving a place; as a departure from London.

2. Death; decease; removal from the present life.

The time of my departure is at hand. 2 Tim. 4.
(MY QUESTION: Departing from the faith? Nope!)

(NOTE: act of going away, leaving a place, removal from the present life. Nothing about apostasy mentioned in KJ Bible Dictionary Definition for departure

1599 Geneva Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
(NOTE: Assembling/gathering together UNTO him/Christ. The catching-up in 1 Thes 4:16-17 is the biggest single gathering at/to that point in time/history)

2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
(NOTE: John 14:1-3 Jesus while explaing His coming for the Church says be not troubled. Secondly the day of Christ or the Day of the Lord lasts 1000 yrs See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4. Begings with the 70th week of Daniel, 7 years of tribulation. 1 Thess 4:16 & these 1st 7 verses in 2 Thes 2 teach the departure/catching-up/rapture must come before the man of sin is revealed & the tribulation begins)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
(NOTE: I've posted here 4 Bibles written before 1611 KJV. They all say a departure (catching-up = rapture) comes first. Then the man of sin will be revealed)

4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
(NOTE: The revealing of the man of sin will happen after the Churches departure)

5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(NOTE: Again read John 14:1-3)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with the supernatural power/authority to do this restraining)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
(NOTE: It's the Holy Spirit Who lives/dwells within each believer that is withholding/restraining the son of perdition/man of sins arrival. When Christ's Holy Spirit filled Body of Christ/Church departs/is caught-up/raptured. Then no restraints for sin remain. The man of sin will simultaneously be cast out of heaven Rev 12:7 and hurled to earth)

Genesis 6:3 (A) The LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

Find 3 more pre 1611 Bible translations stating departure. No falling away/apostasy mentioned

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

Final thought:
Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

More Examples:

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers (the Church is the Bride of Christ), and shut thy doors about thee & hide thyself as it were for a little moment, ""until the wrath be past"".
(NOTE: Believers go to The New Jerusalem Revelation 21. The place Jesus goes to prepare for us in (John 14:3)

The NT Body of Christ/Church departs meeting the LORD in the air = is caught-up/raptured & delivered for the coming wrath. The man of sin is then revealed, and the coming wrath for a rebellious, Christ rejecting, unbelieving world will begin.

Great topic.

Glad you started this thread.

I hope we can have a fruitful discussion.



Ok here is the scripture you are referring to -


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3


Here is the contextual subject matter of 2 Thessalonians 2:

• Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

Do you know what Paul is referring to by the gathering?


Here is the verse that has the term “falling away”.

• for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Did you know the man of sin with be revealed before the that Day?

The Day of the Lord Jesus Christ, ie the coming of the Lord, occurs after the falling away, and after the man of sin is revealed.


One final thought -


Jesus Christ personally destroys the antichrist at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

• destroy with the brightness of His coming.

JLB

 

[ByGraceThruFaith]

[QUOTE="
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

Do you know what Paul is referring to by the gathering?
(MY NOTE TO THIS QUESTION: In nthe OP I called it the catching-up - rapture.)

Here is the verse that has the term “falling away”.

for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
(MY NOTE TO THIS QUESTION: In short the OP reads, The Church/Body of Christ departs/falls away via meeting the Lord in the Air. Then the man of sim is revealed)

Did you know the man of sin with be revealed before the that Day?
(MY NOTE TO THIS QUESTION: The OP agrees with this. It reads in short, the Church departs/falls away via meeting the Lord in the Air. Setting the stage for the anti-christ entry & the the 70th week of Daniel/7 years of tribulation. At the end of the 7 trib. Christ physically returns (Zec 14:5), the raptured saints are with him:

Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & """all the saints with Him."""

Jude 14 (B) Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, """at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints""".

(MY NOTE TO YOUR LAST POINT: It at this time his brightness destroy's his foe)
[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

Do you know what Paul is referring to by the gathering?
(MY NOTE TO THIS QUESTION: In nthe OP I called it the catching-up - rapture.)

Actually the “gathering” is a reference to the resurrection and rapture, that Paul teaches about in His first letter to the Thessalonians.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


At the coming of the Lord, He gathers together all His people who are in heaven and on earth, in the air, in the clouds to meet the Lord and to be forever be with Him.


So we see the resurrection which come first, then after that, the rapture takes place at His coming.


JLB

 

[JLB]

MY NOTE TO THIS QUESTION: The OP agrees with this. It reads in short, the Church departs/falls away via meeting the Lord in the Air. Setting the stage for the anti-christ entry

Actually the scripture says the Antichrist comes first then the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, where the Lord destroys the antichrist.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

• for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

JLB

 

[ByGraceThruFaith]

Actually the scripture says the Antichrist comes first then the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, where the Lord destroys the antichrist.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

• for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

JLB

 

[ByGraceThruFaith]

Ok:
for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
(NOTE: The departure/falling away/gathering/rapture 1st, the man of sin is revealed then: The day of the Lord = The 1000 yr Kingdom rule. Which begins with Christ's physically returns Zec 12:4:

See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4. With the Lord a day is as/like 1000 yrs.

Again the saints are with him at his physical arrival: HE ALREADY MET THEM IN THE AIR. Setting the stage for the trib & the man of sin being revealed.

Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & """all the saints with Him."""

Jude 14 (B) Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, """at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints""".

The departure/falling away/gathering/rapture already happened, IN THE AIR , before the Lords feet physically touch My Olive.

The OP touched on the entire time frame:

The day of the Lord lasts 1000 yrs See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4.

Begins with the 70th week of Daniel, 7 years of tribulation. 1 Thess 4:16 & these 1st 7 verses in 2 Thes 2 teach the departure/catching-up/rapture must come before the man of sin is revealed & the tribulation begins)

 

[JLB]

That Day will not come unless the man of sin is revealed.


Man of sin comes first, then the coming of the Lord who destroys him, by the brightness of His coming.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Ok:
for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition
(NOTE: The departure/falling away/gathering/rapture 1st, the man of sin is revealed then: The day of the Lord = The 1000 yr Kingdom rule. Which begins with Christ's physically returns Zec 12:4:

See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4. With the Lord a day is as/like 1000 yrs.

Again the saints are with him at his physical arrival: HE ALREADY MET THEM IN THE AIR. Setting the stage for the trib & the man of sin being revealed.

Zec 14:5 On that day His feet will stand on Mt Olive. The Mt will split in 2 from east to west. Then the Lord your God will come, & """all the saints with Him."""

Jude 14 (B) Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thes 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, """at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints""".

The departure/falling away/gathering/rapture already happened, IN THE AIR , before the Lords feet physically touch My Olive.

The OP touched on the entire time frame:

The day of the Lord lasts 1000 yrs See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4.

Begins with the 70th week of Daniel, 7 years of tribulation. 1 Thess 4:16 & these 1st 7 verses in 2 Thes 2 teach the departure/catching-up/rapture must come before the man of sin is revealed & the tribulation begins)

At the coming of the Lord, the scripture teaches these three things take place.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

1. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - Resurrection
2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. - Rapture
3. The destruction of the antichrist - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Again in order, these three things occur at His coming:

1. Resurrection
2. Rapture
3. Destruction of the antichrist

Do you agree or disagree ?




JLB

 

[ByGraceThruFaith]

That Day will not come unless the man of sin is revealed.


Man of sin comes first, then the coming of the Lord who destroys him, by the brightness of His coming.



JLB

Hi JLB,
I posted & spoke specifically to this an additional 2 times.

 

[ByGraceThruFaith]

At the coming of the Lord, the scripture teaches these three things take place.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

1. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - Resurrection
2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. - Rapture
3. The destruction of the antichrist - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Again in order, these three things occur at His coming:

1. Resurrection
2. Rapture
3. Destruction of the antichrist

Do you agree or disagree ?




JLB

Hi JLB,
I tried 3 times to make my point. In my opinion:

1) the departure = rapture = the gathering of the Body of Christ, unto him = the resurrection of these saints. Meeting him in the air.

2) the man of sin is revealed. Setting the stage for the 70th week of Daniel = the 7 yrs time of tribulation = the time of Jacob/Israel's trouble Jer 30:6-7. Additionally to OP pointed out the Church doesn't go thru the trib.

3) The Lord returns physically (Zec 12:4), the Church age saints are with him, scripture provided above. And the day/1000 yr physical Kingdom reign of the Lord begins.

That's what I posted, that's what I believe. You & I disagree, no harm, no foul. The apostles had disagreements & still manage to love one another. Best wishes, FD

 

[for_his_glory]

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Timothy is teaching about the falling away or the departure of sound doctrine in all truth. His departure is at hand as he is about to die and has fought a good fight and finished his course here on earth as he kept the faith.

Jesus will plant His feet on the Mt of Olives on the last day when He returns as then we are gathered/caught up to Him. There is no pretrib Rapture mentioned anywhere in scripture as it says Christ returns on the last day.

We do not enter the Millennial Kingdom here on earth in our natural bodies, but in new glorified bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Christ returns in the air we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after he is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9. The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14:1, 2; Luke 21:20 and Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

(IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

John 5:28, 29; Rev 20:11-15, now comes the Great White throne judgment as the books are opened with one of them being the Lamb's book of life where all the saints of God have their names written as they have part of the first resurrection of eternal life on such the second death hath no power, Rev 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:54-57. The other book is opened being the book of damnation where the enemies of God that were killed while trying to destroy the camp of the saints are now joined with those enemies of Christ that were also raised from their graves and are reserved, 2 Peter 2:9, as now since they were condemned and judged will be cast into the lake of fire. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. While the saints are with Jesus the earth will be renewed and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven, Rev 21.

Matthew 24:22 these days are shortened for a time that only God holds back or extends to allow His purpose for the last one to repent and turn back to Him before Christ returns, Rev 19, as God alone knows their name. Only God can shorten days like He did with Hezekiah as He caused the sundial to go backwards ten degrees, Isaiah 38:8, which was possibly five hours and again in Joshua 10:12-14 God extended the daylight for Joshua to defeat the Amorites.

Christ returns on the last day at the seventh trumpet and on that day His Bride being the collective body of believers through faith in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption will be caught up to Him. Both asleep in their grave and those who are alive at His coming will then be kept safe on that day while Christ fights the final battle casting the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and slaying all those nations (people) who come out to fight against Him.
(John 5:25-30; 6:40; Ephesians 1:3-14;1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19; Zechariah 14:1-6; Luke 21:20-22)

 

[for_his_glory]

Actually the “gathering” is a reference to the resurrection and rapture, that Paul teaches about in His first letter to the Thessalonians.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


At the coming of the Lord, He gathers together all His people who are in heaven and on earth, in the air, in the clouds to meet the Lord and to be forever be with Him.


So we see the resurrection which come first, then after that, the rapture takes place at His coming.


JLB

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He couldn't of made it any clearer when He will return and when we are gathered up to Him in the air. I can't understand why others ignore this. Actually these verses hit me like a ton of bricks when I use to believe in a pretrib rapture of the church. Matthew 24:1-31 is what got me started questioning all those pretrib teachings that I once believed, but could never understand all the scriptures they used, but just took their word for it.

 

[JLB]

He couldn't of made it any clearer when He will return and when we are gathered up to Him in the air. I can't understand why others ignore this.

I can’t either.

His coming is associated with the rapture and resurrection as well as the destruction of the wicked, which includes the antichrist.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


We see Jesus teaching about His coming and the resurrection and rapture in Matthew 24, and Mark 13 as well.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


Jesus answers their question -


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30



JLB

 

[JLB]

3) The Lord returns physically (Zec 12:4), the Church age saints are with him, scripture provided above. And the day/1000 yr physical Kingdom reign of the Lord begins.

Yes the Church, the dead in Christ who are in heaven, will return with Jesus Christ, at His coming to gather His people and destroy the wicked.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


At His coming, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ who are with Him in heaven, for those who are alive and remain.

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that occurs at His coming.




JLB

 

[JLB]

A falling away/departure from what? The Christian faith or any particular place, earth?)

KJV Dictionary Definition: DEPARTURE, n.

1. The act of going away; a moving from or leaving a place; as a departure from London.

I don’t find your definition anywhere.

Here is what the Strongs says -


Falling away - Strongs G646 - apostasia

KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I can’t either.

His coming is associated with the rapture and resurrection as well as the destruction of the wicked, which includes the antichrist.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


We see Jesus teaching about His coming and the resurrection and rapture in Matthew 24, and Mark 13 as well.


Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Matthew 24:3


Jesus answers their question -


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30



JLB

IMO, if there were no other scriptures written other than Matthew 24 Jesus clearly answers the, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

[ByGraceThruFaith]

I don’t find your definition anywhere.

Here is what the Strongs says -


Falling away - Strongs G646 - apostasia

KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a falling away, defection, apostasy

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.




JLB

1st: here's the link to KJV dictionary I posted from in the OP.

DEPARTURE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Definition of DEPARTURE from the King James Bible Dictionary

av1611.com

2ndly: The King James is not the original manuscript. And so, King James is still a translation and can have translation errors. I'm not trashing the KJV, my own personal choice & 1st go to study bible is KJV Thomspon Chain. Honestly, strongs was written as a parrot of/to/for the KJV & long after the posted translations in the OP & again here in this reply.

3rdly: A main point in the post is the 4 different translations ALL of which are PRE 1611 KJV.

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

ALL the above written pre - KJV say departure. Our disagreement is I say departure of the Church to meet the Lord in the air. You say departure from faith in Christ. We disagree!

In post #15 you said this:
At His coming, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ who are with Him in heaven, for those who are alive and remain.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that occurs at His coming.

MY ANSWER:
1 Thess 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(NOTE: While the Lord is descending, He blows (not the angels that blow the judgments) His trumpet, the dead/those asleep in Christ rise 1st.)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(NOTE 1: Next, those of us alive are caught-up to meet the Lord in the air. Are his feet touching down in My Olive? NO!

(NOTE 2: The leading Greek Lexicon says that the Greek word harpazo that translates to caught-up & means: "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently.

(NOTE 3: Sometime after this the man of sin is revealed & the seal & vial judgments begin the trib.

(NOTE 4: After the trib when His feet Physically touch earth, His saint are already with him. He destroys ALL Israel's attackers. Next, is the goat & sheep separation. People/His Sheep that are still alive (still stuck in there adamic nature), go into the 1000 yr Kingdom reign.)

Finally:
There are several different time frames when people are resurrected 1 Cor 15:23. The firstfruits resurrection happened right after Christ was resurrected Matt 27:52-53. And at the white throne judgment, more resurrections.

 

[JLB]

1st: here's the link to KJV dictionary I posted from in the OP.

DEPARTURE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Definition of DEPARTURE from the King James Bible Dictionary

av1611.com

1st: here's the link to KJV dictionary I posted from in the OP.

DEPARTURE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Definition of DEPARTURE from the King James Bible Dictionary

av1611.com

2ndly: The King James is not the original manuscript. And so, King James is still a translation and can have translation errors. I'm not trashing the KJV, my own personal choice & 1st go to study bible is KJV Thomspon Chain. Honestly, strongs was written as a parrot of/to/for the KJV & long after the posted translations in the OP & again here in this reply.

3rdly: A main point in the post is the 4 different translations ALL of which are PRE 1611 KJV.

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

ALL the above written pre - KJV say departure. Our disagreement is I say departure of the Church to meet the Lord in the air. You say departure from faith in Christ. We disagree!

In post #15 you said this:
At His coming, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ who are with Him in heaven, for those who are alive and remain.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that occurs at His coming.

MY ANSWER:
1 Thess 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(NOTE: While the Lord is descending, He blows (not the angels that blow the judgments) His trumpet, the dead/those asleep in Christ rise 1st.)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(NOTE 1: Next, those of us alive are caught-up to meet the Lord in the air. Are his feet touching down in My Olive? NO!

(NOTE 2: The leading Greek Lexicon says that the Greek word harpazo that translates to caught-up & means: "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently.

(NOTE 3: Sometime after this the man of sin is revealed & the seal & vial judgments begin the trib.

(NOTE 4: After the trib when His feet Physically touch earth, His saint are already with him. He destroys ALL Israel's attackers. Next, is the goat & sheep separation. People/His Sheep that are still alive (still stuck in there adamic nature), go into the 1000 yr Kingdom reign.)

Finally:
There are several different time frames when people are resurrected 1 Cor 15:23. The firstfruits resurrection happened right after Christ was resurrected Matt 27:52-53. And at the white throne judgment, more resurrections.

At the coming of the Lord, the scripture teaches these three things take place.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

1. And the dead in Christ will rise first. - Resurrection
2. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. - Rapture
3. The destruction of the antichrist - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Again in order, these three things occur at His coming:

1. Resurrection
2. Rapture
3. Destruction of the antichrist

Do you agree or disagree ?


JLB

 

[JLB]

1st: here's the link to KJV dictionary I posted from in the OP.

DEPARTURE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Definition of DEPARTURE from the King James Bible Dictionary

av1611.com

2ndly: The King James is not the original manuscript. And so, King James is still a translation and can have translation errors. I'm not trashing the KJV, my own personal choice & 1st go to study bible is KJV Thomspon Chain. Honestly, strongs was written as a parrot of/to/for the KJV & long after the posted translations in the OP & again here in this reply.

3rdly: A main point in the post is the 4 different translations ALL of which are PRE 1611 KJV.

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

ALL the above written pre - KJV say departure. Our disagreement is I say departure of the Church to meet the Lord in the air. You say departure from faith in Christ. We disagree!

In post #15 you said this:
At His coming, Jesus returns with the dead in Christ who are with Him in heaven, for those who are alive and remain.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

The resurrection and rapture are one event, that occurs at His coming.

MY ANSWER:
1 Thess 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(NOTE: While the Lord is descending, He blows (not the angels that blow the judgments) His trumpet, the dead/those asleep in Christ rise 1st.)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(NOTE 1: Next, those of us alive are caught-up to meet the Lord in the air. Are his feet touching down in My Olive? NO!

(NOTE 2: The leading Greek Lexicon says that the Greek word harpazo that translates to caught-up & means: "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently.

(NOTE 3: Sometime after this the man of sin is revealed & the seal & vial judgments begin the trib.

(NOTE 4: After the trib when His feet Physically touch earth, His saint are already with him. He destroys ALL Israel's attackers. Next, is the goat & sheep separation. People/His Sheep that are still alive (still stuck in there adamic nature), go into the 1000 yr Kingdom reign.)

Finally:
There are several different time frames when people are resurrected 1 Cor 15:23. The firstfruits resurrection happened right after Christ was resurrected Matt 27:52-53. And at the white throne judgment, more resurrections.

The resurrection comes first at His Coming.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught together with them in the air, at His coming.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Why would Paul write to these people a second letter and tell them the Church will be resurrected and raptured (gathered) BEFORE His coming.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

• for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

I hope you realize this is what you are teaching, by your interpretation, that you are saying that the coming of the Lord, will not take place until the Rapture comes first.


JLB