Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[Rajesh Sahu]

Paul says in Romans 6:23 "Salvation is a free Gift of God"

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of god is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

Paul mentions this thought few more times like in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24 etc.

But, while reading Luke recently I realized Jesus completely rejects that (Paul’s) claim in Luke 14:25-34 --- by stating the LARGE COST of becoming His disciple—be ready to give up EVERYTHING warns/ counsels the Lord if you want to become my disciple. Exactly what Jesus had told the rich man in the rich man and Jesus incident ( it is not a parable) (Mark 10:17–31).

Christ again teaches the same message in "The Parable of the Pearl of Great Price " in Matthew 13:45-46

Let us read the Lord’s words in Luke 14:25-33 (New International Version)

The Cost of Being a Disciple

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples."
Far from being a free gift, even to become a disciple of Christ requires us to be ready to give up ALL – including our LIVES--- if needed (Luke 14:26, 33), says the Lord, else He does NOT want us to be His disciple.
Most definitely NOT a free Gift by any stretch of the imagination, as Paul taught.

Christ gave up his all for us and now wants OUR ALL in case we wish to become His disciple, was what I got from Christ's words in the above mentioned Luke passage. This begs the question How/ Why was Paul was teaching Salvation is a free gift? And I feel cheated that almost every Church I have been to over past 15 years teach the same falsehood ---” Salvation is a free Gift of God, all you have to do is believe” But I ( now) do not believe the Churches! I believe what Jesus taught --- He IS the messiah. He IS the architect of the rules of salvation. He died for us on the Cross. Nobody else did. He does not agree it's a free gift.
This misteaching(s) ( of many Churches)is one of the most important reasons that I love our website here. This IS my real Church because the “real Churches” did NOT teach the truth. Jesus’ words in Matthew 15:14 summarizes their teachings for me now :
“Disregard them! They are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Would invite thoughts ( backed with scripture please ?) on this important doctrinal question.
Many thanks in advance. Submitted in respect and love...Raj

 

[Couppy]

Rajesh Sahu You are putting the cart before the horse. You have to be saved first before becoming a true disciple. Jesus will then give you the grace to follow him. For the fact that someone is attending Church services and is active with Church and charity work does not qualify them as a disciple of Jesus Christ. First, experience salvation, then become a disciple.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7.

You can have free entry into a university but you must do the hard work of studying to graduate. That does not mean you worked for your admission, does it?

 

[Hospes]

But, while reading Luke recently I realized Jesus completely rejects that (Paul’s) claim in Luke 14:25-34 --- by stating the LARGE COST of becoming His disciple—be ready to give up EVERYTHING warns/ counsels the Lord if you want to become my disciple. Exactly what Jesus had told the rich man in the rich man and Jesus incident ( it is not a parable) (Mark 10:17–31).

Before we decide that Jesus rejects Paul's teaching, shouldn't we ask the question if we may not fully understand the passages?

 

[Edward]

The way I read that Paul is right, salvation is a free gift That is first, and to them who believe on His name He gave the power to become sons of God.

I can see four levels of relationship with the Lord. All are scriptural. Servant of God...Friend of God...Sons of God...and Bride of Christ.

So Jesus was right too. If you want to advance in the Kingdom of God then you, pay a higher price, suffer more, obey more and face even greater tests of your faith through tribulation. So Paul was not wrong and there is no contradiction.

I believe it is up to us to reach out and take the first three and up to Jesus for the 4th one. ;)

 

[Hospes]

Christ gave up his all for us and now wants OUR ALL in case we wish to become His disciple, was what I got from Christ's words in the above mentioned Luke passage.

I guess the central question is "Is salvation a transaction between a person and God." In other words, if I pay enough to God, is He required then to save me? If I have counted the cost, sold all that I own and given it to the destitute, leave all for the sake of following Christ, is Jesus then obligated to let me into His disciple club? I think not.

God does not owe us salvation, He gives it without being under any obligation. In that sense, He gives it freely. Upon recieving such a great salvation - of knowing Jesus as their infinitely supreme treasure - a person will lead a life marked by the pursuit of the treasure, regardless the cost.

BTW, the phrase "free gift" is not in the scriptures, only "gift". This could be part of the confusion.

 

[Who Me]

If Bill Gates or the multi millionaire of your choice, invites you to visit him on his private Pacific Ocean island for a long free holiday, can you say it is not free if you have to pay to get there?

Yes there can be a cost to find Jesus and use there is a cost to being a disciple of Jesus but they are not the cost of becoming a disciple, that was paid by Jesus.

 

[Pipiripi]

The gift isn't and wasn't free. It has cost God His only begotten Son to die for me and you, because of love for humanity, even before we has come in existence. Imagine someone that cannot die in His perfect eternal life, decided to became one of His creation to take all their sin upon Him and die in the place of us. And His Father is the God! Hmmm! I can't wait to see my Jesus.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Rajesh Sahu You are putting the cart before the horse. You have to be saved first before becoming a true disciple. Jesus will then give you the grace to follow him. For the fact that someone is attending Church services and is active with Church and charity work does not qualify them as a disciple of Jesus Christ. First, experience salvation, then become a disciple.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:5-7.

You can have free entry into a university but you must do the hard work of studying to graduate. That does not mean you worked for your admission, does it?

Hello friend thank you for taking time out to reply . You say I place the Cart before the Horse, and you are saying here we have to be saved first before becoming a disciple? What does this even mean? who is issuing these guarantees of salvation to believers? Why are they doing this. Here Jesus is talking (in the passage of Luke that I have quoted) that BEFORE you wish to even become my disciple, consider the heavy COSTS involved and then he proceeds to describe them---- He wants EVERYTHING ( our worldly possessions, our life, our love, everything-- if needed) from us if we wish to be His disciples, and then you say we have to be Saved first to become his disciples? It’s like the Principal of Medical College telling a student who wants to join the college for seven year medical college course "Here boy, take your degree first, become a doctor today itself, and from tomorrow come and start taking your classes -- become a doctor first then start learning for next seven years, how to be one"

Does this even make sense?

Lets take a look at Christs closing words of warning after his incredible Sermon ( on the Mount)

Matthew 7: 24-27

" “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

( we have to IMPLEMENT / Obey ) if we wish to be saved -- giving each other guarantees of salvation will not cut it friend. Again I repeat Jesus wants our ALL if we even wish to even enter into discipleship.
Jesus also reminds us in John 14:15 if we love him we must Obey His commands. Which tells me I have no love for Jesus IF I am not obeying His commands. How then am I saved?
I would like to quote words of an esteemed member of ours, sister Wondering from WHOM I picked this VITAL words of advice--- “ do your best and leave to Christ the rest” all this FREE GIFT promises is smoke and mirrors . Jesus rejects it completely – Just as Father God did and all the Prophets did. One has to be ready to give their all, before they wish to become a follower of Christ is what I get from the Word. These words of the Lord from Matthew 10:37-38 are a grim reminder of that truth.
“Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.”

Salvation process is not easy. It takes into consideration FAITH , BAPTISM , and life-long OBEDIENCE and last but certainly not the least JUDGMENT
Faith : John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life"
Baptism : John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Obedience : John 3:36 : "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him "
Judgment : Sheep and Goats story, a future day event-- Matthew 25:31-46 ---Day of the Lord's judgment-- when many believers who did not practise loving-compassion will not be able to make it to His heaven

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

One request to all our brothers and sisters here. Take advantage of the time at hand due to Corona Virus lock downs and restrictions and STUDY Lord's red lettered words in the NT. When I read them ( exclusively) I felt I was sitting in front of the Lord and he was teaching me -- one one one And His teachings / words were like none other. It just blew me away! Everytime I study His words, I get something new, something DEEP, even flashes of visions. It's incomparable and like nothing I have experienced . All the wisdom , teachings and expectations of the Savior of mankind are hidden in His red lettered words--- every word is pristine, every word is precious, and every word is profound. I go down on my knees (becaue I love you guys) and beg you to read (exclusively) the Lord's words in Bible couple of times.. Blessings on all and love to everyone ...raj

 

[Couppy]

Hello friend thank you for taking time out to reply . You say I place the Cart before the Horse, and you are saying here we have to be saved first before becoming a disciple? What does this even mean? who is issuing these guarantees of salvation to believers? Why are they doing this. Here Jesus is talking (in the passage of Luke that I have quoted) that BEFORE you wish to even become my disciple, consider the heavy COSTS involved and then he proceeds to describe them---- He wants EVERYTHING ( our worldly possessions, our life, our love, everything-- if needed) from us if we wish to be His disciples, and then you say we have to be Saved first to become his disciples? It’s like the Principal of Medical College telling a student who wants to join the college for seven year medical college course "Here boy, take your degree first, become a doctor today itself, and from tomorrow come and start taking your classes -- become a doctor first then start learning for next seven years, how to be one"

Does this even make sense?

Lets take a look at Christs closing words of warning after his incredible Sermon ( on the Mount)

Matthew 7: 24-27

" “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

( we have to IMPLEMENT / Obey ) if we wish to be saved -- giving each other guarantees of salvation will not cut it friend. Again I repeat Jesus wants our ALL if we even wish to even enter into discipleship.
Jesus also reminds us in John 14:15 if we love him we must Obey His commands. Which tells me I have no love for Jesus IF I am not obeying His commands. How then am I saved?
I would like to quote words of an esteemed member of ours, sister Wondering from WHOM I picked this VITAL words of advice--- “ do your best and leave to Christ the rest” all this FREE GIFT promises is smoke and mirrors . Jesus rejects it completely – Just as Father God did and all the Prophets did. One has to be ready to give their all, before they wish to become a follower of Christ is what I get from the Word. These words of the Lord from Matthew 10:37-38 are a grim reminder of that truth.
“Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.”

Salvation process is not easy. It takes into consideration FAITH , BAPTISM , and life-long OBEDIENCE and last but certainly not the least JUDGMENT
Faith : John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life"
Baptism : John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Obedience : John 3:36 : "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him "
Judgment : Sheep and Goats story, a future day event-- Matthew 25:31-46 ---Day of the Lord's judgment-- when many believers who did not practise loving-compassion will not be able to make it to His heaven

Rajesh Sahu I am surprised that you quoted the scriptures above. Look at your bible verse John 3:16. First you have to believe on him to become a disciple. Once you believe you have eternal life - that is salvation " They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Acts 16:31.

The cost of resisting following the devil and yielding to the flesh is what you are looking at. It is the cost of following Jesus. Jesus warned his disciples of what they are going to experience by following him in a world that rejected him and his teachings. " He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him." John 1:10-11.

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” John 16:33

.

 

[Hospes]

I notice we - i.e. Christians - tend to take a term in the Bible and load it up with meanings that aren't really necessarily from the Bible. I believe "disciple" is such a word. In the NT, the word disciple seems to be simply used in the same sense we'd use "follower", i.e. someone that has some degree of commitment to observing, obeying, and imitating another person.

Before Jesus' disciples even grasped who He was (Luke 8:25), they are referred to as His disciples. (Matthew 5:1, Mark 2:15, Luke 5:30, John 2:2) Naming them disciples comes before any of Jesus' commands regarding what it is to be a disciple and His teaching on the necessity of obedience. In the Gospels, we get to observe how Jesus' disciples progress, and abandon (John 6:66) , their commitment and devotion to Jesus. Even Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus until near the end.

I think we can get into trouble when we add definitions to Biblical words. With the word "disciple" we get folks saying that salvation has stages of progression, which is not found anywhere in the Scripture. You are in Christ or out. You are either redeemed through Christ or not. You are "by nature a child of wrath" or a child of God.

This does not mean there are not degrees of becoming more like Jesus as we grow in our understanding and love for Him. You cannot be redeemed by God through Christ and it not result in you loving Jesus and being devoted to observing, obeying, and imitating Him. Our whole life as a chosen of God is, by grace, putting to death our flesh and being transformed into His image. But even the most mature Christian will not come even close to having the beauty and goodness of God. That is why we need something much more to be acceptable to Him.

We need Someone to give a righteousness we can never attain. We need Someone to fully receive the wrath that we deserve and to give us a righteousness we do not deserve. If I do not get to be "clothed" in the perfect righteousness and perfect obedience of Jesus, I've got NOTHING to make me acceptable to a just and infinitely holy God. Doesn't matter if I have counted the cost of discipleship, left all for the sake of following Jesus, carried my cross daily, etc. I do not have wherewithal to be who Jesus commands me to be. Remember He commanded us - in red letters - "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Given this command, without the gift of Christ's righteousness imputed to me, I am utterly lost. Thanks to Jesus, I have been rescued and given the gift of His salvation! That is Good News!

There! I am done with my rant! At least for now.

 

[WIP]

First you have to believe on him to become a disciple.

Is this accurate? A disciple is a follower of Jesus or put another way, a student of Jesus. I can see where it may be possible to be a disciple and not yet believe. An apostle on the other hand would have to be a believer or be one of those wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I notice we - i.e. Christians - tend to take a term in the Bible and load it up with meanings that aren't really necessarily from the Bible. I believe "disciple" is such a word. In the NT, the word disciple seems to be simply used in the same sense we'd use "follower", i.e. someone that has some degree of commitment to observing, obeying, and imitating another person.

Before Jesus' disciples even grasped who He was (Luke 8:25), they are referred to as His disciples. (Matthew 5:1, Mark 2:15, Luke 5:30, John 2:2) Naming them disciples comes before any of Jesus' commands regarding what it is to be a disciple and His teaching on the necessity of obedience. In the Gospels, we get to observe how Jesus' disciples progress, and abandon (John 6:66) , their commitment and devotion to Jesus. Even Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus until near the end.

I think we can get into trouble when we add definitions to Biblical words. With the word "disciple" we get folks saying that salvation has stages of progression, which is not found anywhere in the Scripture. You are in Christ or out. You are either redeemed through Christ or not. You are "by nature a child of wrath" or a child of God.

This does not mean there are not degrees of becoming more like Jesus as we grow in our understanding and love for Him. You cannot be redeemed by God through Christ and it not result in you loving Jesus and being devoted to observing, obeying, and imitating Him. Our whole life as a chosen of God is, by grace, putting to death our flesh and being transformed into His image. But even the most mature Christian will not come even close to having the beauty and goodness of God. That is why we need something much more to be acceptable to Him.

We need Someone to give a righteousness we can never attain. We need Someone to fully receive the wrath that we deserve and to give us a righteousness we do not deserve. If I do not get to be "clothed" in the perfect righteousness and perfect obedience of Jesus, I've got NOTHING to make me acceptable to a just and infinitely holy God. Doesn't matter if I have counted the cost of discipleship, left all for the sake of following Jesus, carried my cross daily, etc. I do not have wherewithal to be who Jesus commands me to be. Remember He commanded us - in red letters - "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Given this command, without the gift of Christ's righteousness imputed to me, I am utterly lost. Thanks to Jesus, I have been rescued and given the gift of His salvation! That is Good News!

There! I am done with my rant! At least for now.

I liked your rant At least some parts of it . It manifests great love for the Lord . There is something I'd like to share though, as I studied the words of the Lord. It was this : He didnt want salvation seekers, who came to Him to be saved. He wanted spiritual warriors who were willing to give up all for Him, and even lay down their lives for Him. He wanted dedicated soldiers for His Kingdom, and not a bunch of believers who had come to believe in Him with the sole purpose of being saved . But did not put into practise the teachings of the Savior. These were the Goats ( reference Goats and Sheep vision on judgment day)
Here are some noteworthy words of the Lord which lend credence to that view ( salvation seekers will not make it on the last day) :
Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

But wait that's not it. Several other verses where The Lord repeats this message:

John 12:24-25
in wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whever hates his life in this word will keep it for eternal life.

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

 

[Couppy]

Is this accurate? A disciple is a follower of Jesus or put another way, a student of Jesus. I can see where it may be possible to be a disciple and not yet believe. An apostle on the other hand would have to be a believer or be one of those wolves in sheep's clothing.

Someone can follow anyone, even Jesus without actually being a disciple. For the fact that they attend Church, bible school, and participate in activities, does not make them a disciple. It makes them someone who is interested in a well-known person. People study and research Shakespeare's life. People follow celebrities, even to the extent of trying to be like them, as long as those famous individuals do things that pleases them. They are not celiebrities disciples, they are just fans.

Jesus has fans too. To believe in Jesus you have to understand what he did - his death, burial, and resurrection - and accept the reason why he did it. Fans likes the idea of believing in someone and admire what they do. They follow them around/

A disciple is someone who not only follow Jesus but believed in what he did and is willing to identify with him in their way of life and in his teaching. They are ready to obey and commit.

When you preach the gospel to someone who has never been to Church or studied the bible, and they believe in what Jesus did to them, would you reject their request to accept Jesus as their Saviour and be saved, because you have not yet enrolled them in a bible study class in your Church?

Disciples starts from being a baby in Christ to becoming spiritually matured. The more you learn the more you understand and the more you commit to the Lord's teaching.

Someone can be religious without being a disciple of Jesus. They will show all the signs of believing and commitment in outward appearance form.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

The entire message of God's Word is contained in one line " Do God's Will versus our will "

Jesus warns in Matthew 7:21 Nobody can enter the kingdom of heaven unless we learn to do God's will
And repeats the same message in different words in Mark 3:35 where He assures us He has no relationship with us believers if we are not willing to do the will of God. Which begs the question. What IS the Will of God?
The answer , I believe , to that vital question lies again in Christ's teachings . It was one Word , LOVE
Here is what Christ says about obeying the Law and meeting the requirement of the Law and teachings of the Prophets. And He says it twice, and therefore it merits extra attention : Matthew 22: 37-40
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Jesus repeats the same message in different Words: the Golden rule

Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

So the Will of God, expressed through His Son was Love God and love all others.

To confirm this thought I found several other verses of the Lord and other teachers. All pointing in the same direction. LOVE

It was then I realized, and it made good sense, that God IS Love ( 1 John 4:8), Father and Son are One ( John 10:30). So Christ IS Love . What else could unfailing LOVE (Jesus)have taught (most)?

God made the World and us in Love , and John 3:16 confirms that .

Jesus says In book of revelation I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, which tells me the beginning is Love and everything must also culminate in Love. I see that in the New Jerusalem coming down from the heavens in the book of Revelation. It also reminds/ cautions me that "Whatever does not end in Love will not end well " ( my words / conclusion) .

Keeping all this in mind, I knew God's Will was simple (and yet remained untaught for most parts—or at least I wasn’t taught in any Church this )

God's Will : "Turn away from Sin ( repent) and Turn TO truth ( Jesus) practicing Loving compassion continually "

If the above makes good sense, please try to practice compassion consciously. I'm also trying . I'm nowhere near perfection. I also fight my sinful nature. Often unsuccessfully. But I am consciously trying now, and will keep trying. And in everything now, I'm learning to ask "God what's YOUR will?"

I apologize for the long message. Couldn’t explain / share otherwise). God bless everyone

John 14 :21 : "Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23 : "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10 : If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3 : By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6 : And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

 

[WIP]

Someone can follow anyone, even Jesus without actually being a disciple. For the fact that they attend Church, bible school, and participate in activities, does not make them a disciple. It makes them someone who is interested in a well-known person. People study and research Shakespeare's life. People follow celebrities, even to the extent of trying to be like them, as long as those famous individuals do things that pleases them. They are not celiebrities disciples, they are just fans.

Jesus has fans too. To believe in Jesus you have to understand what he did - his death, burial, and resurrection - and accept the reason why he did it. Fans likes the idea of believing in someone and admire what they do. They follow them around/

A disciple is someone who not only follow Jesus but believed in what he did and is willing to identify with him in their way of life and in his teaching. They are ready to obey and commit.

When you preach the gospel to someone who has never been to Church or studied the bible, and they believe in what Jesus did to them, would you reject their request to accept Jesus as their Saviour and be saved, because you have not yet enrolled them in a bible study class in your Church?

Disciples starts from being a baby in Christ to becoming spiritually matured. The more you learn the more you understand and the more you commit to the Lord's teaching.

Someone can be religious without being a disciple of Jesus. They will show all the signs of believing and commitment in outward appearance form.

I agree with part of what you say but I wonder if you are not quite understanding what a disciple is. The definition of a disciple is follower or student of a teacher, leader, or philosopher.

Here's an example of disciples of Jesus that didn't believe but they were disciples nonetheless.

Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
John 6:61-66 NKJV

 

[Edward]

Disciples are different from followers. Think on it this way. We already know that there is rank in heaven because references are made to the greatest in heaven and the least in heaven.

So it's like a follower is a Private. A new recruit. A disciple is prolly a Corporal or Sargent. Then there's Majors, Lieutenants, Captains...and so forth.

The Kingdom of God. The Armies of God. Follower, Friend, Sons, & Bride...Disciples, Rabbis, Priests, Kings, and so forth. When you advance, there is a test, then comes more higher level responsibilities, more trials, more cost to you to advance. You want to be a General in God's army? Give up everything.
Or so it seems to me.

 

[WIP]

Disciples are different from followers. Think on it this way. We already know that there is rank in heaven because references are made to the greatest in heaven and the least in heaven.

So it's like a follower is a Private. A new recruit. A disciple is prolly a Corporal or Sargent. Then there's Majors, Lieutenants, Captains...and so forth.

The Kingdom of God. The Armies of God. Follower, Friend, Sons, & Bride...Disciples, Rabbis, Priests, Kings, and so forth. When you advance, there is a test, then comes more higher level responsibilities, more trials, more cost to you to advance. You want to be a General in God's army? Give up everything.
Or so it seems to me.

I think disciples are followers but there are different types of followers. One type of follower is one who tags along for the ride, so-to-speak. Another type of follower is one who is genuinely interested in what the leader has to say and therefore is listening, considering, and contemplating what the leader is teaching. At some point he/she may grow to become more than just a follower but become a witness, supporter, and even teacher.

I'm not sure but we may be saying the same thing only differently.

 

[Hospes]

I liked your rant At least some parts of it . It manifests great love for the Lord . There is something I'd like to share though, as I studied the words of the Lord. It was this : He didnt want salvation seekers, who came to Him to be saved. He wanted spiritual warriors who were willing to give up all for Him, and even lay down their lives for Him. He wanted dedicated soldiers for His Kingdom, and not a bunch of believers who had come to believe in Him with the sole purpose of being saved . But did not put into practise the teachings of the Savior. These were the Goats ( reference Goats and Sheep vision on judgment day)

RS, I think we are fairly well aligned. I agree that every follower of Christ is commanded by Him to forsake all in being His disciple. (The call is not optional; not a higher degree of Christian.) I agree that there are many who have professed faith in Jesus, calling Him "Lord, Lord", that at the final judgement will hear Him say "Depart from me. I never knew you." There are tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep. If you mean by "salvation seekers" people that merely want to avoid hell and have no interest in stepping up to the high call of giving all for the sake of Christ, then I'd agree with you again. There is one bit I am not hearing in your writing that I'd interject, though.

I believe those that are truly redeemed by God will, out of love for their Lord, accept the call to lay down everything in order to please Him. It is not that they decide on their own to have an iron-willed resolve to do it, it is that God graciously gives them the resolve to do it. (Phillipians 2:13) God lets us see His infinite worth and beauty - His glory - and it causes such a desire in our hearts that we will do everything and anything to "gain Christ". (Phillipians 3:8) I guess what I am stressing is that following of Jesus, regardless the cost, is a necessary result of God causing a person to be born again. If a person does not see Jesus as a treasure, and thus has no desire to lay down everything for Him, then I'd suggest - though I know no one's heart - they may not even be redeemed and a child of God, i.e. a tare/goat.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Agreed on everything you stated here ??