New Statement of Faith

[JLB]

Yes, that is the verse the Elders at the North church of Christ used to invalidate my baptism when I was 13. They too said I had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

What does the Church of Christ teach concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit?


Why would they use that scripture to invalidate your water baptism, when Jesus plainly said, for John Baptized with water?


Makes no sense.


Jesus disciples baptized in water with Jesus there approving.


The baptism of John continued to be administered by Peter some 10 after Pentecost.


Again, there are three baptisms mentioned in scripture, not one.

1. The Holy Spirit Baptizes us into Christ, at regeneration; the new birth.

2. Man baptized in water after one is born again.​

3. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.​

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Your water baptism was completely valid, and it seems you were born again at that time.​

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All I’m saying is God has more for you if you want it.​

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He will never force His gift upon you.​

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JLB​

 

[OzSpen]

My studies on baptism have brought me to believe that it is an essential part of our salvation. Jesus commands us to baptize, which infers obedience to being baptized. Why would anyone disobey such a simple commandment from our Lord? Can those who are willfully disobedient to such a simple commandment really claim salvation ?

With few exceptions, it is normative in scriptures that baptism is a response to the gospel and the hearer of the gospel desires baptism. In simple terms, the gospel is the good news story of salvation and baptism is a first act of participating in the newness of life in our Lord and Savior. It is a beautiful picture of being United in Christ's death and ressurectuon.

But some have gotten to smart for their britches and have distorted and distracted from this reality we have in Christ. For me, it deeply saddens me.

SB,

Your statements here seem contradictory in my view:

1. "My studies on baptism have brought me to believe that it is an essential part of our salvation".
2. "it is normative in scriptures that baptism is a response to the gospel and the hearer of the gospel desires baptism. In simple terms, the gospel is the good news story of salvation and baptism is a first act of participating in the newness of life in our Lord and Savior".

Yes, it is normative in Scripture for believers to be baptised AFTER being born again (salvation) but I don't consider it is a biblical position to state that "baptism ... is an essential part of our salvation".

Even if baptism happens 5 mins after salvation, it does not mean it is directly involved in the salvation experience. In my understanding, it is an important dimension in growing in faith, i.e. sanctification.

Oz

 

[JLB]

SB,

Your statements here seem contradictory in my view:

1. "My studies on baptism have brought me to believe that it is an essential part of our salvation".
2. "it is normative in scriptures that baptism is a response to the gospel and the hearer of the gospel desires baptism. In simple terms, the gospel is the good news story of salvation and baptism is a first act of participating in the newness of life in our Lord and Savior".

Yes, it is normative in Scripture for believers to be baptised AFTER being born again (salvation) but I don't consider it is a biblical position to state that "baptism ... is an essential part of our salvation".

Even if baptism happens 5 mins after salvation, it does not mean it is directly involved in the salvation experience. In my understanding, it is an important dimension in growing in faith, i.e. sanctification.

Oz

Salvation is a relative term that should be understood as being past, present as well as a future result of our faith in Christ.


In this sense, salvation occurs because we are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.


In addition, we can be baptized in water, as well as baptized with the Holy Spirit, which come after initial “salvation”.


If we have faith for something, then by default we have yet to obtain, the thing we are hoping for.


Paul says it this way -


For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


Paul using the language of faith, describes our condition as related to salvation.


We “were” saved through faith, which means we now have the hope of salvation; faith being the substance of the thing hoped for, because why do we still hope for something we already have?

Since we “hope for” for our salvation that we have by faith, we eagerly wait for “it” (salvation) with perseverance.



Peter says it like this -


whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:8-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

The end result of faith for salvation is to receive the salvation of our soul.




JLB

 

[chessman]

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

The end result of faith for salvation is to receive the salvation of our soul.

... Whom not having seen, you are loving; in Whom— right-now not seeing Him, but believing— you are rejoicing-greatly with inexpressible and glorified joy while receiving the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls,​

1 Peter 1:8-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:8-9&version=DLNT

According to Peter, in the same tense (presently) that we are rejoicing-greatly we are also receiving the salvation of our souls (presently). And it’s no wonder as to how we are presently (not in the future) receiving the salvation of our souls since it came through the imperishable, living and abiding word of God, not through our perishable flesh:

Having purified your souls in obedience of the truth for a sincere brotherly-love— love one another fervently from a pure heart, having been born-again not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.​

1 Peter 1:22-23 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:22-23&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

According to Peter, in the same tense (presently) that we are rejoicing-greatly we are also receiving the salvation of our souls (presently). And it’s no wonder as to how we are presently (not in the future) receiving the salvation of our souls since it came through the imperishable, living and abiding word of God, not through our perishable flesh:

We rejoice in knowing He, who promised is faithful.

Knowing that we will receive what He promised, the salvation of our soul as an end result of our faith.


Our faith is like a winning lottery ticket, in which we rejoice at have won the lottery.


Now all that remains is to continue to possess our winning lottery ticket as we travel to the place where we will redeem our winning ticket, the substance of our hope in obtaining the actual money that the ticket represents.


Along the way, if we should somehow foolishly lose our winning ticket, or maybe trade it for a bag of magic beans, then we no longer have the substance of our hope for obtaining the prize we once had.


No ticky.

No wroundry.




JLB

 

[chessman]

Knowing that we will receive what He promised, the salvation of our soul as an end result of our faith.

I’m believing Peter on this SOF. I’m presently rejoicing greatly specifically and explicitly because I am presently (not ‘will receive’ in the future) “receiving the outcome”, the salvation of my soul.

... Whom not having seen, you are loving; in Whom— right-now not seeing Him, but believing— you are rejoicing-greatly with inexpressible and glorified joy while receiving the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls,​

1 Peter 1:8-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:8-9&version=DLNT

The verb “receiving” Peter used is in the present tense (not future tense) for a reason.

 

[JohnDB]

Uhhhh guys,
This thread is not to discuss the merits or demerits of OSAS. It's about the forum Statement of Faith which will include people who are on all three sides of the argument.

 

[JLB]

I’m believing Peter on this SOF. I’m presently rejoicing greatly specifically and explicitly because I am presently (not ‘will receive’ in the future) “receiving the outcome”, the salvation of my soul.

... Whom not having seen, you are loving; in Whom— right-now not seeing Him, but believing— you are rejoicing-greatly with inexpressible and glorified joy while receiving the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls,​

1 Peter 1:8-9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Peter 1:8-9&version=DLNT

The verb “receiving” Peter used is in the present tense (not future tense) for a reason.

I believe what Peter said -


receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:9



JLB

 

[JLB]

Uhhhh guys,
This thread is not to discuss the merits or demerits of OSAS. It's about the forum Statement of Faith which will include people who are on all three sides of the argument.

I’m discussing faith.


The principle of faith, in the thread titled “Statement of Faith”.


It must be understood by all that if we have faith for something, then by default, we do not yet have that something.

We have the substance, of the thing we are hoping for.


Just to know where you stand on this issue, if a person hopes to have something, do they have it yet?




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

JLB, The churches of Christ don't like to talk much about the Holy Spirit...

As far as John's baptism, it was a baptism of repentance. Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

When Peter baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it was for the remissions of sin.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I'm getting a little lost on all these threads and I'm loosing my place where what was said etc. But you brought up three baptism. I remember looking at them and thinking this.
1. Holy Spirit convicts us of sin
John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Did you say the second baptism was water, and I think the third one was of the Holy Spirit?

While I agree that water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are two separate events, I do think that scripture can support both occurring in conjunction of one another.

Paul writes this: Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

He also writes this.
Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I know that you are familiar with these verses, but when I read them, I see a picture of one going into the baptismal pool, and when one is buried with Christ, they are raised a new creation.

I know JohnDB wrote a lot about Baptism, but if you take 20 minutes to read this article, I think it gives a better idea what the Jews believed in the first century about baptism, which I think is closer to the idea Paul is trying to convey.
https://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm

I think you said something about the Holy Spirit being breathed onto the Apostles by Jesus (John 20:22). I see this as relating to our new birth and echo's back to Genesis 2:7. Where we were once a dead soul due to the fall, we are now living souls in Christ.

Now I feel like Nicodemus in John 3 speaking to Jesus. We know that Jesus is in his resurrected body and we know he physically breathed on the Apostles and they received the Holy Spirit. Can a man climb into his mothers womb and be born again? Honestly, I don't understand how Jesus can breath the Holy Spirit on us, but I can understand how we draw closer and unite to him in the baptismal waters much in the way the Jews understood baptism.

I would really like to hear your story, and I would like to hear your insight on this.

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

Your statements here seem contradictory in my view:

1. "My studies on baptism have brought me to believe that it is an essential part of our salvation".
2. "it is normative in scriptures that baptism is a response to the gospel and the hearer of the gospel desires baptism. In simple terms, the gospel is the good news story of salvation and baptism is a first act of participating in the newness of life in our Lord and Savior".

Yes, it is normative in Scripture for believers to be baptised AFTER being born again (salvation) but I don't consider it is a biblical position to state that "baptism ... is an essential part of our salvation".

Even if baptism happens 5 mins after salvation, it does not mean it is directly involved in the salvation experience. In my understanding, it is an important dimension in growing in faith, i.e. sanctification.

Oz

I think it is because you view them as two separate events where I see them as joined at the hip. Faith in action perhaps, sanctification is another good way to put it. Perhaps the biggest difference we may have is this. You and others look at salvation as the end game. I would say that God is more in the transformation department than simply being "saved". I believe baptism serves transformation.

I don't want to get top heavy here though and as I've said, there are exceptions to every rule... and the Bible is full of exceptions that's for sure.

Regardless, I think or SOF will be broad enough to accommodate both views, and thank you for your contributions.

 

[stovebolts]

JohnDB, WIP, OzSpen JLB

I'm getting lost in all the discussions. Here is what I have so far.
WIP, I don't want to eliminate the clause on infants or those mentally challenged. Also, immersion has always been orthodox as they fully immerse infants 3 times in "living waters" even to this day and it was the RCC who brought in sprinkling as a primary means. That being said, I understand sprinkling is an acceptable practice in a few denominations and I do not see this as a deciding factor of who's Christian and who's not. All that to say I don't want to invalidate your infant baptism, but I would like to put preference of baptism back in line with Orthodoxy.

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Doctrinal Statement
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).

We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Furthermore, We believe children and those with mental incapabilities who have no knowledge of good and evil, being innocent in the eyes of God, will be with Him if they should die in this state. (Deuteronomy 1:39) Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).

The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been immersed in the baptismal waters. Those baptized as infants, whether immersed or sprinkled will not be excluded. (Matthew 28:19).

We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell. They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

JohnDB, WIP, OzSpen JLB

I'm getting lost in all the discussions. Here is what I have so far.
WIP, I don't want to eliminate the clause on infants or those mentally challenged. Also, immersion has always been orthodox as they fully immerse infants 3 times in "living waters" even to this day and it was the RCC who brought in sprinkling as a primary means. That being said, I understand sprinkling is an acceptable practice in a few denominations and I do not see this as a deciding factor of who's Christian and who's not. All that to say I don't want to invalidate your infant baptism, but I would like to put preference of baptism back in line with Orthodoxy.

************************************************************************************

Doctrinal Statement
We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

The Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.(Matt Perman 2006).

We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Furthermore, We believe children and those with mental incapabilities who have no knowledge of good and evil, being innocent in the eyes of God, will be with Him if they should die in this state. (Deuteronomy 1:39) Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).

The visible Body of Christ (The Church) is universal in nature and not specific to one denomination. It consists of all believers who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior and have been immersed in the baptismal waters. Those baptized as infants, whether immersed or sprinkled will not be excluded. (Matthew 28:19).

We believe in a personal devil, Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell. They seek to deceive people, defeat believers, and destroy the work of God. They can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of conscious torment where unbelievers will dwell.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the Body of Christ, the true Church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Sealed with the Holy Spirit.


The Holy Spirit is the seal of approval, marking those who are genuine believers.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13


And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30




JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Sealed with the Holy Spirit.


The Holy Spirit is the seal of approval, marking those who are genuine believers.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13


And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30




JLB

I would think that indwelling does include sealing...

I'm missing the difference that you are trying to make.

Mind you that I'm not claiming that I got more Holy Spirit in my little finger that others have in their whole body.

But in Timothy Paul encourages young Tim to guard the "down payment"/deposit God has placed in Timothy.

And just for StoveBolts
Wind/breath/fumes/Spirit are all the same vocabulary word.
Jesus breathing on the apostles for them to receive the Holy Spirit was yet another ironic wordplay joke. (He was full of them)

 

[WIP]

@WIP, I don't want to eliminate the clause on infants or those mentally challenged. Also, immersion has always been orthodox as they fully immerse infants 3 times in "living waters" even to this day and it was the RCC who brought in sprinkling as a primary means. That being said, I understand sprinkling is an acceptable practice in a few denominations and I do not see this as a deciding factor of who's Christian and who's not. All that to say I don't want to invalidate your infant baptism, but I would like to put preference of baptism back in line with Orthodoxy.

I understand. I'd also like to offer a correction. From my past experience in the Catholic church and reviewing what the Catholic church has to say about it, see here, RCC does not use sprinkling as the primary method. Infusion (pouring) is the most common method, although sprinkling and submersion are also accepted.

 

[chessman]

The Holy Spirit is the seal of approval,

The Holy Spirit is the seal of promise:

... in Whom also you— having heard the word of truth, the good-news of your salvation, in which also having put-faith— you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,​

Ephesians 1:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:13&version=DLNT

The Holy Spirit is a pledge:

Who is a pledge of our inheritance until the [final] redemption of His possession for the praise of His glory.​

Ephesians 1:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:14&version=DLNT

God’s given saved people a promise whereby He’s pledged (presently) His possessions our inheritance.

 

[JLB]

The Holy Spirit is the seal of promise:

Exactly.

The Holy Spirit is God’s seal of approval on those who believe.


JLB

 

[JLB]

God’s given saved people a promise whereby He’s pledged (presently) His possessions our inheritance.

Yes those who are heirs of eternal life.


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I understand. I'd also like to offer a correction. From my past experience in the Catholic church and reviewing what the Catholic church has to say about it, see here, RCC does not use sprinkling as the primary method. Infusion (pouring) is the most common method, although sprinkling and submersion are also accepted.

Thanks Wip.
One thing to note from the explanation. The Greek word for baptize does not catch the richness and true spirituality of the word. What ever is baptized, regardless if it is a pot, cup, hands or full body must already be clean. One would not baptize a dirty cup nor dirty hands.

 

[JLB]

Honestly, I don't understand how Jesus can breath the Holy Spirit on us,

Just like He did when He breathed into a lump of dust and it received His life, and became a living soul.


His Spirit is the Spirit of Life.

Spirit in the Hebrew means breath.

Same in the Greek.



JLB