Preterism and Parousia

[Dorothy Mae]

Hello. Thank you for responding to my question. Since you're an administrator and you didn't delete my post, am I correct to assume that means it's okay (or at least tolerated) for me to ask questions about preterism that are meant to challenge that position? I'm honestly not trying to start trouble, I have genuine curiosities about this position and figured the best way to get answers would be to interact with people who hold that position.
That being said, I think you misunderstood my question. I'm aware of the differences between full and partial preterism and that this forum only discusses partial preterism. So I didn't mean to imply that preterists entirely deny the second coming of Christ. I'll rephrase my question. Here it goes: Jesus used the term "parousia" four times in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew's Gospel, chapter 24, verses 3, 27, 37, 39. All preterists understand these references to Jesus spiritually returning in the clouds in AD 70 in judgment on Jerusalem, much in the same way Yahweh rode on the clouds in Isaiah 19:1. Correct?
Given what I argued in my OP about the meaning of the word "parousia", upon what basis can this word be interpreted as having such a meaning? Is a spiritual arrival and presence within the semantic range of potential meanings of that word? Is it perhaps unequivocally used in that way in the Septuagint? What's the basis for interpreting that word in that way in Matthew 24? That's my question. Thanks.

I think you are not stating the opposite position correctly. Jesus didn’t “come” in a spiritual sense. His threat to come again (make no mistake it was a threat) to the Jewish leaders who condemned him was a coming in Judgement same as he threatened to “come” to the church at Ephesus in judgement. “Coming on the clouds” is not a reference to the heavenly airline but God’s judgement on a people which is what he said to the leaders who condemned him. It happened in the OT as well, in Isaiah 19. It is also a final judgement when it’s in the clouds.

Jesus has promised to “come” more than once such as “we will come to him and make our abide in him” but no one thinks that’s how we get the Second coming. It’s not merely spiritual but it’s also not in the body.

 

[JLB]

no one thinks that’s how we get the Second coming. It’s not merely spiritual but it’s also not in the body.

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27

• Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory

The Second Coming of Christ is the literal, Physical return of Jesus Christ, with His saints who are in heaven to gather His people together, both those in heaven and those on earth, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18



Once His people are gathered together in the clouds above the earth, He will literally “tread out the winepress” of the fierceness of the wrath of God upon the wicked who are on earth.


Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15



Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:5







JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27

• Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory

The Second Coming of Christ is the literal, Physical return of Jesus Christ, with His saints who are in heaven to gather His people together, both those in heaven and those on earth, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18



Once His people are gathered together in the clouds above the earth, He will literally “tread out the winepress” of the fierceness of the wrath of God upon the wicked who are on earth.


Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15



Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:5







JLB

Dear JLB

I know the theology and the scriptures used for that position. Do you really want to debate this/discuss it? I have grown rather fond of you and find it difficult.

The position that much of this has already happened is rooted in history. By definition, prophesy in the NT cannot include its fulfillment unless it was within a few years of the event predicted. So my position places a great deal of weight upon actual history, less than scriptures although they also play a vital role.

For clarification, we also believe in the literal bodily return of Jesus. we are not JWs who say he came in secret. The circumstances will be different than you describe above. Those circumstances are also in scripture but less detailed as they aren’t as dramatic in how the world will be.

One could start with asking you, the opposition, to state what you think we belief. In my experience, most opponents of Preterism cannot accurately state what our position is. Lots of strawmen out there.

 

[JLB]

Dear JLB

I know the theology and the scriptures used for that position. Do you really want to debate this/discuss it? I have grown rather fond of you and find it difficult.

The position that much of this has already happened is rooted in history. By definition, prophesy in the NT cannot include its fulfillment unless it was within a few years of the event predicted. So my position places a great deal of weight upon actual history, less than scriptures although they also play a vital role.

For clarification, we also believe in the literal bodily return of Jesus. we are not JWs who say he came in secret. The circumstances will be different than you describe above. Those circumstances are also in scripture but less detailed as they aren’t as dramatic in how the world will be.

One could start with asking you, the opposition, to state what you think we belief. In my experience, most opponents of Preterism cannot accurately state what our position is. Lots of strawmen out there.

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ is a literal resurection of people who have literally died, and whose literal bodies with be resurrected from the dead?




JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ is a literal resurection of people who have literally died, and whose literal bodies with be resurrected from the dead?




JLB

Absolutely and without a doubt!

 

[JLB]

Absolutely and without a doubt!

Amen!