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the better way imo is for each person to share what and why they believe as they do - and then others ask questions for clarification - and then let the onlookers decide what sounds more applicable to them - without having others attack anyone's treasured beliefs - or denomination/leaders/founders

a wise person can bring out the truth by asking questions - there really is no need to publically attack a group or their beliefs

for example discussing osas could include:
1. what is osas?
2. what are the alternative streams of thought


I have to say your insight and attitude are awesome.


However, I have to say that the teaching of Romans 14 and OSAS are completely polar opposite.


It’s one thing to allow for a personal expression of worshipful love towards God through a passionate heartfelt belief.


It’s altogether another thing to promote heresy that affects another persons eternal life.


The way we go about presenting correct doctrine to a person who has fallen into believing a damaging false doctrine is important as much as discerning what stage of maturity they are at.


IOW, a person’s choice to eat certain food, or worship on Saturday rather than Sunday is one thing.

Spreading false doctrine is quite another.




JLB
 
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I have to say your insight and attitude are awesome.

However, I have to say that the teaching of Romans 14 and OSAS are completely polar opposite.

It’s one thing to allow for a personal expression of worshipful love towards God through a passionate heartfelt belief.

It’s altogether another thing to promote heresy that affects another persons eternal life.

The way we go about presenting correct doctrine to a person who has fallen into believing a damaging false doctrine is important as much as discerning what stage of maturity they are at.

IOW, a person’s choice to eat certain food, or worship on Saturday rather than Sunday is one thing.

Spreading false doctrine is quite another.

JLB
imo false doctrine only spreads because people don't understand fully what the doctrine is - and they also don't understand alternate streams of thought

all false doctrine imo is based on MISUNDERSTANDING scripture - so if the doctrine is fully explained - including the scriptural basis - then everyone can be informed fully on what osas is

then if others use their knowledge about osas to ask questions to draw out further depths of the osas doctrine the doctrine should be fully exposed for all to see and make up their own mind

then if alternative streams of thought that DIFFER from osas are presented as info - in a calm and caring way the onlookers can examine for themselves -

if this clear presentation of truth is insufficient to persuade people of solid biblical doctrine i don't see how attacking osas will do a better job

to tell you the truth i do not know fully what osas is because there is so much battling over the doctrine - and battles get a thread shut down - so the discussion always ends up being aborted

if we can remain calm and wise about presenting doctrines without offense perhaps we could be the first to make a full presentation of osas and alternate streams of thought/belief so that everyone can take a real in depth look at osas and settle it for themselves

do we need to be afraid of a full disclosure? - won't a full disclosure help rather than hinder? - won't truth be served by a full disclosure?

imo a wrong doctrine is best exposed by a full exposure - along with clarifying questions - and with presentation of alternate streams

i would love to be involved in a test case where one controversial doctrine is presented in the manner i am promoting to see how it would work

i truly believe discussion without attack will bring the best results

if a osas person knows they will get attacked they are not going to want to share their beliefs fully - same with catholic doctrines - and any other group that gets attacked - and the rest of us will never know what osas really believe or why

for me the danger is that some sincere christians depend on osas as a CORE issue in their connection with God - i don't want to destroy their connection with God by destroying osas - and i don't want to destroy the unity of this forum by offending osas christians - because osas is more than a theology to them - it is a precious part of their connection to God

ALSO - insider understanding of a doctrine is usually very different from outsider misunderstanding of a doctrine - imo outsiders quite often misunderstand a doctrine - and insiders don't at all believe osas the same way outsiders accuse them of - and if an in depth discussion without attack is presented i believe the outsider misunderstanding will be cleared up
 
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if this clear presentation of truth is insufficient to persuade people of solid biblical doctrine i don't see how attacking osas will do a better job


Attacking a person will never accomplish anything godly.


However, understanding and attacking their stronghold with the weapons God has given us, because we love them and love the people who will be harmed by the spread of heresy requires patience, wisdom, and the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us.


I guess defining what a stronghold is, would be a good start in that direction.


4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 10:4-6


What ever definition we tend to agree upon, I hope we can all agree that a stronghold is designed to resist the knowledge of God.




JLB
 
for me the goal of try to understand others and try to be understood keeps things interesting and enlightening

when the goal becomes trying to prove the other guy wrong the discussion becomes hurtful to those whose precious beliefs get publicly attacked

Romans 14 discusses how each of us have precious personal beliefs we incorporate into how we connect with God in a deep and personal way - and paul encourages us to NOT destroy that heartfelt passion of worshipful love toward God

i have many times argued with people over what i found out later was a precious treasured belief - and my argument trampled /crushed /destroyed their sense of joy and wonder over how they worshipped/believed/thought about/ connected with God in a deep personal life changing way - and then much later i found out they were right and i was wrong - but too late - i destroyed the beauty of something precious to them by my stronger but wrong argument

iow i don't think we should turn a precious belief by one person or group into a theological discussion - because all theological discussions are based on people's opinions - no one knows for sure how God feels about osas / calvinism / catholicism / and all the other beliefs that are precious to some and anathema to others

imo the theology forum can be just as harmful as the political forum due to the fact that deep precious beliefs are more than theology to most of us - they are the CORE way we relate to God - and damaging the way someone relates to God should be curbed/disallowed

the better way imo is for each person to share what and why they believe as they do - and then others ask questions for clarification - and then let the onlookers decide what sounds more applicable to them - without having others attack anyone's treasured beliefs - or denomination/leaders/founders

a wise person can bring out the truth by asking questions - there really is no need to publically attack a group or their beliefs

for example discussing osas could include:
1. what is osas?
2. what are the alternative streams of thought

an in depth conversation could occur on this basis without ever attacking either belief

almost like a buyers report of all the options - rather than a hit piece against one of the options

imo the theology forum should be replaced with a faith forum and a bible study forum - and the rules should be:
1. share your faith/bible interpretation without attacking another person's/group's faith/ bible interpretation -
2. you may ask questions about another member's faith/bible interpretation but you may not make derogatory comments -
3. you may present your faith belief/bible interpretation as an alternate stream but not to attack other's belief/bible interpretation

if attack/debate/argue is disallowed that only leaves present what you believe and why without making any comment about what another person believes and why - that would force us all to seek to understand others and be understood by others
You and I are tracking perfectly. And I like your idea of renaming the Theology forum. Nobody is doing theology in there anyway.

Perhaps we rename it as you said and create a real Theology forum where real theology takes place.
 
Attacking a person will never accomplish anything godly.


However, understanding and attacking their stronghold with the weapons God has given us, because we love them and love the people who will be harmed by the spread of heresy requires patience, wisdom, and the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us.


I guess defining what a stronghold is, would be a good start in that direction.


4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 10:4-6


What ever definition we tend to agree upon, I hope we can all agree that a stronghold is designed to resist the knowledge of God.




JLB
While I agree, I also understand that those who hold to OSAS have as much conviction as you or others. Bring up RCC, and some folk just go bonkers.

When iron sharpens iron so it can become a weapon for warfare, we've lost our salt. We will not be a battleground.

We have to recognise that Godly people believe strongly in their doctrines and arguing isnt going to change many minds. To most, it's just ugly because it is ugly.

The sad part is this, and I was reminded of this in church Wed night. The "teacher" was bragging about his ability to stand up and argue his point. I told him that it was ok, but my studies of Jesus brought me to the conclusion that although Jesus could hold his own, he didnt look for arguments. He actually avoided them and the majority of his time was spent ministering to those who were open to his words. Some spend way to much time arguing, and this forum will no longer facilitate those who need an argument to contribute their knowledge.

The guy went into automatic argue mode... it upset me and I got angry and told him to stop it and listen to what i said. I told him i agreed to his points, but he missed mine.

It's sad when a piece of scripture has lost it's TRUE meaning and it has to be looked at in a way to fortify ones doctrine. It's one of the biggest crimes to the gospel I've seen.
 
You and I are tracking perfectly. And I like your idea of renaming the Theology forum. Nobody is doing theology in there anyway.

Perhaps we rename it as you said and create a real Theology forum where real theology takes place.


Yes, real Theology.

We can all learn what real Theology is.


Amen.



JLB
 
While I agree, I also understand that those who hold to OSAS have as much conviction as you or others.


The Pharisee’s had great conviction about their theology also, so much so they attacked and murdered the Lord because His doctrine exposed their demonically driven set of beliefs.



JLB
 
The sad part is this, and I was reminded of this in church Wed night. The "teacher" was bragging about his ability to stand up and argue his point. I told him that it was ok, but my studies of Jesus brought me to the conclusion that although Jesus could hold his own, he didnt look for arguments. He actually avoided them and the majority of his time was spent ministering to those who were open to his words. Some spend way to much time arguing, and this forum will no longer facilitate those who need an argument to contribute their knowledge.


Amen.
 
all false doctrine imo is based on MISUNDERSTANDING scripture - so if the doctrine is fully explained - including the scriptural basis - then everyone can be informed fully on what osas is


I love this Statement.


I just wish it were true.


I have hope, that we can cause it to become true, together, here on this Forum.



You are blessed.



JLB
 
Yes, real Theology.

We can all learn what real Theology is.


Amen.



JLB
The way I understand theology is it starts with proper exegesis. There are many tools used for exegesis and the more one applies the former ones understanding.

I am of the belief that our first priority is to understand how the original audiance would have heard it and what its primary intent was.

From there, we find other scriptures that have a common thread and redact them. Once redaction is done, the result is a solid theology.

It's a lot of work. My entry point is always historicle and textual.

Snodgrass, Stories with intent (Parables of Jesus) is an example of how exhaustive proper exegesis can be. It's not for the fly by night apologist, but makes a wonderful foundation for a theology that puts the master apologist to shame.
 
The Pharisee’s had great conviction about their theology also, so much so they attacked and murdered the Lord because His doctrine exposed their demonically driven set of beliefs.



JLB
Here is what I have discovered. Blanket statements do more harm than good. Nicodemus was a good man, and Saul had zeal for the Lord. Both of them became great men in the Bible.

To understand the Pharisees, one has to know what caused that group to rise up. Most do not know, nor do they care to because it's easier to demonize them and paint them with the same brush to prop up the words of Jesus.

The sad reality is this. When hate gets in leadership, it propagates more hate and attracts those kind of people that want to hate. We call this systemic sin.

Go to any congregation in any religion and you will find a divider and hater, and Christianity is no exception. It is not a religious trait.... it's a human trait.
 
The sad part is this, and I was reminded of this in church Wed night. The "teacher" was bragging about his ability to stand up and argue his point. I told him that it was ok, but my studies of Jesus brought me to the conclusion that although Jesus could hold his own, he didnt look for arguments. He actually avoided them and the majority of his time was spent ministering to those who were open to his words. Some spend way to much time arguing, and this forum will no longer facilitate those who need an argument to contribute their knowledge.
He even told His disciples that when their words were not heard, they should shake the dust off their feet and move on. Sounds to me like engaging in an endless debate was not part of the plan.
 
The way I understand theology is it starts with proper exegesis. There are many tools used for exegesis and the more one applies the former ones understanding.

I am of the belief that our first priority is to understand how the original audiance would have heard it and what its primary intent was.

From there, we find other scriptures that have a common thread and redact them. Once redaction is done, the result is a solid theology.

It's a lot of work. My entry point is always historicle and textual.

Snodgrass, Stories with intent (Parables of Jesus) is an example of how exhaustive proper exegesis can be. It's not for the fly by night apologist, but makes a wonderful foundation for a theology that puts the master apologist to shame.


I’m sure the disciples of John would agree with you.

These promises from our God, can also be relied upon as well.


But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:33-34


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32



But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
1 John 2:27



And of course one of my personal favorites.


You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 5:39-40


Which is another way of saying what He said to Adam.


And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 2:16-17


The other personal favorite that inspires me is what He said about Abraham;


because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5




JLB
 








Alright wondering, all done.
(Except copying it to the first post... I think we'll be fine just putting it in the TOS page)
Onward to section 2. This should be good.

For the record, I don't see any problems allowing Catholic discussions as long as they don't turn into hate battles. I understand that many feel the Catholic church is the anti-christ, but I just don't see it that way. Also, most people don't understand that the Catholic church is much, much bigger than the Roman Catholic church.

One thing we will not open up for promotion are writings that are rejected by both the Jews, Orthodoxy and the majority of Christianity. I'm thinking of books like Enoch and gnostic writings like the gospel of Thomas etc. For those books like Enoch, chabad.org has a list of rejected writings and I can post a link when the time comes. Anything on that list is off limits for anyone to pedal "enhancements" to our canon.

Anyway, we need to all agree or find viable solutions for controversial conversations to occur, but in a manner that is focused on reconciliation and not division. Honestly, I don't know what that will look like and I want to hear what others have to offer.
I'll shelve this discussion until then.
Catholics base Tradition on extra-biblical books.
Like the Protoevangelism of Mary for example. These are referred to at times and it doesn't seem wrong to me if this is how they explain why they think Mary had no more children, for instance. They understand that it's not the same as the bible. I would just agree with you that I also find nothing wrong in discussing Catholicism as long as it's civil. I've never understood why it's so hated. I used to be Catholic and there are some good things about it -- just like everything in life.

Yes. Will discuss later on with everyone.
 
for me the goal of try to understand others and try to be understood keeps things interesting and enlightening

when the goal becomes trying to prove the other guy wrong the discussion becomes hurtful to those whose precious beliefs get publicly attacked

Romans 14 discusses how each of us have precious personal beliefs we incorporate into how we connect with God in a deep and personal way - and paul encourages us to NOT destroy that heartfelt passion of worshipful love toward God

i have many times argued with people over what i found out later was a precious treasured belief - and my argument trampled /crushed /destroyed their sense of joy and wonder over how they worshipped/believed/thought about/ connected with God in a deep personal life changing way - and then much later i found out they were right and i was wrong - but too late - i destroyed the beauty of something precious to them by my stronger but wrong argument

iow i don't think we should turn a precious belief by one person or group into a theological discussion - because all theological discussions are based on people's opinions - no one knows for sure how God feels about osas / calvinism / catholicism / and all the other beliefs that are precious to some and anathema to others

imo the theology forum can be just as harmful as the political forum due to the fact that deep precious beliefs are more than theology to most of us - they are the CORE way we relate to God - and damaging the way someone relates to God should be curbed/disallowed

the better way imo is for each person to share what and why they believe as they do - and then others ask questions for clarification - and then let the onlookers decide what sounds more applicable to them - without having others attack anyone's treasured beliefs - or denomination/leaders/founders

a wise person can bring out the truth by asking questions - there really is no need to publically attack a group or their beliefs

for example discussing osas could include:
1. what is osas?
2. what are the alternative streams of thought

an in depth conversation could occur on this basis without ever attacking either belief

almost like a buyers report of all the options - rather than a hit piece against one of the options

imo the theology forum should be replaced with a faith forum and a bible study forum - and the rules should be:
1. share your faith/bible interpretation without attacking another person's/group's faith/ bible interpretation -
2. you may ask questions about another member's faith/bible interpretation but you may not make derogatory comments -
3. you may present your faith belief/bible interpretation as an alternate stream but not to attack other's belief/bible interpretation

if attack/debate/argue is disallowed that only leaves present what you believe and why without making any comment about what another person believes and why - that would force us all to seek to understand others and be understood by others
Very good TF.
Please copy the above and bring it up in a short form after the posting of Section Two, which will be very soon.
 
i guess i have one question - why did God give us doctrines? - was it to make theological arguments? - or was it to show us how to think speak act toward God and our fellow man?

if a person has a osas / catholic / or other doctrine that helps them draw closer to God and treat others the way God wants them to then i support their doctrines for them - i may not share their doctrine but their doctrine clearly helps them live an outstanding Godly life - so i have no intention of crashing their God party and being a killjoy - which imo is what Romans 14 is all about - encourage others in their faith even if you have different opinions from theirs on faith matters

when i listen to someone's doctrines i am examining them in light of how can this doctrine help me get closer to God - and/or become more effective for God - and/or help others become closer or more effective for God -

if someone's doctrine can improve my faith/lifestyle then i adopt it - if i can't see how to apply it to my life to improve myself i recognize that the doctrine is their faith treasure but not for me - and i try to find ways to encourage them in their faith treasure

for me doctrines have always been about "improving myself" - not telling others what to do or think

i figure if i improve and become more like Jesus in thought word deed results etc then i won't have to argue with anyone about doctrines - people will ask me what my doctrines are and they will be eager to perhaps imitate me as i imitate Christ

if there is nothing outstanding about my lifestyle and character then there is nothing i can say that will make anyone want to listen to what i have to say - and why should they? - the proof is in my lifestyle and character - not eloquent words - or God forbid even worse a sharp tongue that cuts others down

i visited several atheist forums and was saddened to see how many christians left christianity because of the unkindness of christians

i support what StoveBolts is trying to do here - i don't see other forums fighting a fight of faith to bring the body of Christ into a scriptural form of unity - as far as i know this is the only place where everyone is free to love God and share their heartfelt love for God so that we can all be one big happy family who learns to love each other even though we have different beliefs on how to apply scripture to improving our personal faith lifestyle

Jesus told us to be one just as the Father and Jesus are one - i want to see that here - i KNOW it can be done if we all focus on learning loving caring sharing - i know so many believers from different faith persuasions - and i chose to find unity with them while i lightly inquire on their doctrines - i want to understand them and why they believe as they do - when i hit areas where they get combative then i back off - i don't want to hurt their faith in God anyway - and arguing only harms people - it is a challenge to find the points we can agree on - it is wisdom to inquire without arguing the points on which we disagree - if we talk lightly of our disagreements we may grow individually where we are no longer threatened by different beliefs - and then we will be able to discuss many things more thoroughly - we have to learn to trust each other and care about each other's precious faith treasures -
 
i guess i have one question - why did God give us doctrines? - was it to make theological arguments? - or was it to show us how to think speak act toward God and our fellow man?

if a person has a osas / catholic / or other doctrine that helps them draw closer to God and treat others the way God wants them to then i support their doctrines for them - i may not share their doctrine but their doctrine clearly helps them live an outstanding Godly life - so i have no intention of crashing their God party and being a killjoy - which imo is what Romans 14 is all about - encourage others in their faith even if you have different opinions from theirs on faith matters

when i listen to someone's doctrines i am examining them in light of how can this doctrine help me get closer to God - and/or become more effective for God - and/or help others become closer or more effective for God -

if someone's doctrine can improve my faith/lifestyle then i adopt it - if i can't see how to apply it to my life to improve myself i recognize that the doctrine is their faith treasure but not for me - and i try to find ways to encourage them in their faith treasure

for me doctrines have always been about "improving myself" - not telling others what to do or think

i figure if i improve and become more like Jesus in thought word deed results etc then i won't have to argue with anyone about doctrines - people will ask me what my doctrines are and they will be eager to perhaps imitate me as i imitate Christ

if there is nothing outstanding about my lifestyle and character then there is nothing i can say that will make anyone want to listen to what i have to say - and why should they? - the proof is in my lifestyle and character - not eloquent words - or God forbid even worse a sharp tongue that cuts others down

i visited several atheist forums and was saddened to see how many christians left christianity because of the unkindness of christians

i support what StoveBolts is trying to do here - i don't see other forums fighting a fight of faith to bring the body of Christ into a scriptural form of unity - as far as i know this is the only place where everyone is free to love God and share their heartfelt love for God so that we can all be one big happy family who learns to love each other even though we have different beliefs on how to apply scripture to improving our personal faith lifestyle

Jesus told us to be one just as the Father and Jesus are one - i want to see that here - i KNOW it can be done if we all focus on learning loving caring sharing - i know so many believers from different faith persuasions - and i chose to find unity with them while i lightly inquire on their doctrines - i want to understand them and why they believe as they do - when i hit areas where they get combative then i back off - i don't want to hurt their faith in God anyway - and arguing only harms people - it is a challenge to find the points we can agree on - it is wisdom to inquire without arguing the points on which we disagree - if we talk lightly of our disagreements we may grow individually where we are no longer threatened by different beliefs - and then we will be able to discuss many things more thoroughly - we have to learn to trust each other and care about each other's precious faith treasures -
I agree with you,,,BUT
I worry that OSAS could cause some to lose their salvation.
So that's one of the very few theological discussions I care to have.
Am I wrong?

If someone is told they could NEVER lose their salvation...isn't this dangerous?

I think it's fine to "debate", discuss with another member...as long as it's civil 99% of the time. This is what I strive for although I'm sure I've fallen short at times. I just don't think it should be a habit...and I do see a lot of this.

I think finding the right balance is key here...and I DO think we're headed for it. Everyone here seems very nice to me and I don't see any fighting going on anymore.

Not only fighting, but belittling, making fun of, etc.
 
I agree with you,,,BUT
I worry that OSAS could cause some to lose their salvation.
So that's one of the very few theological discussions I care to have.
Am I wrong?

If someone is told they could NEVER lose their salvation...isn't this dangerous?

I think it's fine to "debate", discuss with another member...as long as it's civil 99% of the time. This is what I strive for although I'm sure I've fallen short at times. I just don't think it should be a habit...and I do see a lot of this.

I think finding the right balance is key here...and I DO think we're headed for it. Everyone here seems very nice to me and I don't see any fighting going on anymore.

Not only fighting, but belittling, making fun of, etc.
osas is a good teaching provided it is taught right to many use it and abuse.. there should be a respect for those who believe and live it.
 
I agree with you,,,BUT
I worry that OSAS could cause some to lose their salvation.
So that's one of the very few theological discussions I care to have.
Am I wrong?

If someone is told they could NEVER lose their salvation...isn't this dangerous?

I think it's fine to "debate", discuss with another member...as long as it's civil 99% of the time. This is what I strive for although I'm sure I've fallen short at times. I just don't think it should be a habit...and I do see a lot of this.

I think finding the right balance is key here...and I DO think we're headed for it. Everyone here seems very nice to me and I don't see any fighting going on anymore.

Not only fighting, but belittling, making fun of, etc.
amen - well said

i'm not sure believing a doctrine can cause someone to gain or lose their salvation - i'm not sure we can do anything to gain or lose our salvation -

God said salvation comes from Him alone - and for us to remain in Him - God also said He started the good work in us and He will complete it and bring us through to the day of Jesus' return - and that we can do nothing apart from Him

what we do and believe CAN/DOES affect our peace joy health prosperity effectiveness though

people who sin or believe false doctrines have confusion pain torment physical health social relationship financial trouble for sure - i think trouble causes most of us to eventually look for a better lifestyle through God
 
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osas is a good teaching provided it is taught right to many use it and abuse.. there should be a respect for those who believe and live it.
good point - grace is another teaching that can either be taught right or abused/used - i suppose that is true of any doctrine
 
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