Sociological Christian, a position.

[Riverun]

Hi, I have/had fundamentalist Christian grandparents(now long passed), I realise how important their faith was to their survival and the survival of their peers. Try living thru 2 world wars, a depression and migration to a foreign land. They lived their faith every moment of their lives right until the end. They were good, moral, happy, healthy honest hard working people of the land that built so much and sacrificed so much and asked for nothing. They were nothing special in their own community.

I definitely support christianity as a model for society to function by...in fact I think the evidence shows nothing is better, not looking to debate that point tho.

The problem is I just can't believe the many stories in the bible as actual events that happened.

Apologetics makes it worse, apologists seem like disingenuous salesmen.

Can some people be created such that they are incapable of faith?

Obviously I think so.

 

[Who Me]

Can some people be created such that they are incapable of faith?

Faith is in part believing the facts.

You don't believe many stories found in the bible, ok.
So the idea that a supernatural entity created space, time, energy and matter is unbelievable.
But what is the alternative?
That it just all happened, nothing caused everything, is that an intelligent belief.

If, if there is a being capable of creating everything then causing 10 plagues, a piller of fire etc etc is childs play.


What about Jesus. What do you think of him?
A teacher, a good man, a mad man?

The sanity of his many teaching does not let us see him as mad.
The claims to forgive sin and the reports of his healing the sick won't let us see him as 'just' a good man.

Ever read, really read the story of his trial and crucifixtion?
Ever thought why did the disciples teach so boldly even dying for what they taught, that Jesus had risen from the dead.

May I challenge you to look at the facts, yes that will mean reading Christian books, web sites etc you can check them against atheists sites.

 

[Riverun]

I don't know how time and space started, neither do you. I am just more honest than you by saying I don't know. In fact neither of us know if there even was a start, could have existed forever...neither you or me know.

What do I think of Jesus? I believe he existed and most likely lived on the fringes of society and was made famous long after he was dead, possibly hundreds of years later. He was made into a mythological figure for political reasons so a small minority of men could gain power over a population. Thats what i think now that you asked.

 

[JohnDB]

I understand,
If I may,
You firmly believe that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

And I believe that power attracts the corruptible. And power abhors a vacuum.

You see the slight change?

It happens again and again with basic principles of morality that tend to be difficult for people to understand and put in practice.

To understand scriptures (Bible) is a lifelong journey. And yet people take it.

The Bible isn't just a collection of stories even though it is full of them because it's an instrumental tool in trying to remember what principles the story teaches. The Bible is the basis for how we define such terms as "Good", "Holy", and a bunch of other stuff.

You did the exact same thing in telling us about your grandparents.
Thank you!

And the effort they put into studying these scriptures taught them such definitions as "good", "love", and "patience". Webster's dictionary never had a chance...they lived according to those "stories" you are dismissing for some reason. Someone somewhere had to tell you that these "stories" had no value or were too fantastic to be true. Why would they do that?
But these stories foundationally shaped your grandparents lives.

And what exactly is your definition of "happy/joy"?
How do you define "good"?

You really don't have to answer me...I don't really matter to you. But for that nagging question about your grandparents... studying the Bible will help. NIV, NASB, or even Holman Christian Standard. And flat reading isn't going to cut it... you have to understand why this story was told.

That takes history, anthropology, topography, and arts such as poetry (like Shakespeare sonnets) and hyperbole, anthropomorphism, syndoche, and many other literary devices.
A blend of art and science.

 

[Riverun]

That takes history, anthropology, topography, and arts such as poetry (like Shakespeare sonnets) and hyperbole, anthropomorphism, syndoche, and many other literary devices.
A blend of art and science.

With respect this can not be true, my grandparents were uneducated in all those things, they could not read or write in their own language or their new language. I used to read their mail out loud to them as a child and write replies, pay bills etc. Their bible knowledge and spiritual life was prayer, actions, custom, tradition and verbal.


Even worse is if god would wanted me to know him why would he expect me to essentially spend a lifetime it would take to study those topics you listed....personally I have little to no interest in any of those topics......seriously "history, anthropology, topography, and arts such as poetry (like Shakespeare sonnets) and hyperbole, anthropomorphism, syndoche, and many other literary devices." ... gross - sir you will find me training my dog, riding my horse, solving math puzzles, fight training, fishing, camping, planting vegetables and trees not doing arts, history, Shakespeare....and whatever the hell syndoche is etc. Literary devices??puke.

I don't believe those stories simply because they seem too different to everything I have come to understand about how the world works. You are asking for belief in things that are no different to magic and I bet you and I both don't believe in magic. You have just taken some magical concepts and decided they are actual events with no justification based on any observable events in the universe.

 

[JohnDB]

ROFL...
I get what you're saying... intellectual persuits ain't your cup of tea.eh?

Yeah... neither were your grandparents' .
Those traditions, rituals and etc were linked to all those stories and their meanings but distilled down to what they knew...they actually would surprise you with what they knew of those sciences and arts. We have formal names for them...they didn't. But they knew these things just the same.
And those "simple peasants" had stamina and wisdom that is astounding by today's modern standards.

You get the harder path today...but not completely impossible. If you are interested I can show you some links to some easy to understand videos that can help you know what it was that your grandparents clung so tightly to.

 

[Riverun]

I appreciate you responding in a kind gentle manner when you know I have some built in biases etc. I would rather talk to folks like we are doing now than watch a bunch of videos and read articles.

The one thing I am getting that helps me understand my grandparents is a type of philosophy called stoicism. It really sounds like what I think is missing now, I am not sure if the stoics were Christian or not but the early Christians sound like they were stoics. I think they were around in the time of Jesus ie the Romans etc.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes,
You really want to discuss history and anthropology and philosophy?
LOL...one minute you say you don't and then you step right in the heart of it all.

The "Cliff notes" of this is that some of the principles of the original Stoics (Greek Philosophers) were incorporated into Christian thoughts...but changed a little to fit the Christian Truths. Paul (an Apostle) argued/debated with these guys about Jesus using terms that they were regularly accustomed to discussing. This discussion is recorded in the book of Acts. (Hence the blending of truths and the label of Stoics on your grandparents)


The main difference is that your grandparents believed in something beyond their grasp. (God)

 

[JohnDB]

I'm at work so it's not my ideal way to answer...
But basically Stoics have a belief that they aren't happy unless they are doing their life's calling and put their faith in the materials/tools they work with.
IE A Stone Mason isn't happy without stone, mortar, trowel and plumb line in his hands. No matter what else happens in his life so long as he can work with these things and touch these things he is happy.

Christians adopted a similar philosophy that if we are doing the things that God called us to do we will be happy regardless of outward circumstances... even if you were a Stone Mason you could be happy working with wood so long as you supported your family in the process.

See the slight difference in purpose?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Riverun and welcome to CF

You say your Grandparents were illiterate, but somehow they developed a personal relationship with Jesus in pure love and devotion to His love as that is what it's all about. Goodness, mercy grace and morality are the factors that draw us to God knowing we can humble ourselves before Him knowing that Christ died for our sins as He paid the debt by His blood that now covers us by God's amazing grace. None of us are perfect as we have our flaws, but it's through Christ that helps us in our flawed areas.

Jesus said new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another, John 13:34, 35.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Apparently you are seeking to understand that faith that your Grandparents held on to and that faith is Christ Jesus and the relationship your Grandparents had with Him. Their faith was a greater faith as they did not read or study the scriptures, but knew Jesus in their own heart.

None of us were born believers in Christ, but eventually sometime in our life felt Him drawing us to Him even if we never stepped foot inside any church. Faith is trusting in something we can only hope for and strive for as we eventually learn what faith and true religion is all about. If you truly want to understand such faith that your Grandparents held onto I would suggest you read the Book of John before reading anything else in the Bible as this will teach you about the greatest love story you could ever read about.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Riverun,

It looks like you and JohnDB are having a good discussion on this, so I don't want to interrupt it too much. But there's one thing I wanted to share.

You asked if some people are incapable of faith, and I don't believe that is the case. There are many ways that I've heard of for God reaching people. Some went into their own investigation of the matter and even turn from a vocal atheist to a vocal Christian. Others, like JohnDB described do the reasurch after they believe and their faith is strengthened. There are also those that have a foundation that strengthens their faith, such as their parents or grandparents teaching them what they know. Even some that come to faith by an unrelated means. Study of a field of science makes them awe inspired of the world we live in and they search for God after that, or some have a story of being rescued out of a situation that brings them to look for God. There are also those who come to faith by seeking God in prayer and finding Him. That was the case for me, before I accepted any religion as being from God. For me becoming Christian was part of searching what is from God and what isn't.

All I mean to say is that I think God can reach anyone. And faith isn't just for some people and not for others. Either way. You two continue on. I think JohnDB can answer your questions better then I can

 

[Riverun]

A lot to think about, thanks for the counsel.

Will delve into the spiritual questions on other threads.

 

[Who Me]

I don't know how time and space started, neither do you. I am just more honest than you by saying I don't know. In fact neither of us know if there even was a start, could have existed forever...neither you or me know.

What do I think of Jesus? I believe he existed and most likely lived on the fringes of society and was made famous long after he was dead, possibly hundreds of years later. He was made into a mythological figure for political reasons so a small minority of men could gain power over a population. Thats what i think now that you asked.

As to how everything was started you are right we don't know, but it does exist and we need to have some explanation. That is has always existed was the favoured position held by scientists untill they discovered evidence that the universe had a begining.
You are aware that the scientific evidence is that the universde had a begining.

It leaves only two options either the universe just began or something outside of our universe started it.

As for Jesus being written about hundreds of years after his death and that being how he became famous.

Again the evidence is against that. One simple reason. Jersusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD70, something Jesus had given warnings about, yet none of the NT books mention this dramatic event or claimed it as proof of fulfilled prophercy. The reason historians accept is that the NT was written before AD70.
As for gaining power Christians suffered repeated periods of perscution, their leader being crucified, sure they lead or you would say ruled a few dozen people, that would not give them wealth or status.

Unfortunetly your reasons for not believing Christianity are not very good.

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. There's actually a type of Sociology, the sociology of religion, that deals with stuff that you're discussing...religion, as a social institution, and how that goes with society as a whole. its interesting, to a point.

I hope+pray The Lord moves on your heart and you come to Know Him. That's how I (finally) got truly saved...Jesus dealt with my heart, I responded, now I've been saved 7 years, wouldn't have it any other way.

Just know that religion--any religion, anywhere--as an institution is a man-made attempt to get to God (on a good day...when its not about defrauding people, control, and buying another personal jet). Following Jesus usually involves going to church, somewhere (not for me, I'm an outcast)...

but the goal is an ongoing relationship with Christ in which, over time, the individual is changed...less old person, more Jesus.

so, I can say I -get- your initial post, to a point. I just hope one day Jesus will move in your heart+life, and you'll get saved, too.

 

[Riverun]

It leaves only two options either the universe just began or something outside of our universe started it.

There are endless options, we already have thousands of different creation stories. Pick which ever one floats your boat.

Its a question i am disinterested in - I am more interested in how to survive this world now.

I haven't studied the history of the bible but as I understand it the first "official" bible was edited and assembled by a bunch of old men at the third council of Nicea a a long time after Jesus died.

It's not like the original unedited complete bible written by god was found at the end of a lightning bolt. It's a mish mash of edited texts over a long time of evolution that Christians slaughtered each other over in large numbers to claim legitimacy of their version.

Not sure if this is true but the Quran is apparently a more consistent and cohesive text than our bible.

 

[for_his_glory]

What we call the Holy Bible consist of the writings of God's prophets and the apostles as being original letters written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek translated into English from what is called The Dead Sea scrolls. It's the English we can have problems with as one word can take on different meanings through out the generations.

What it all breaks down to is God's grace that pardons our sin and mercy that loves us through that of God's only begotten Son Christ Jesus who sacrificed His own life that we can have eternal life with the Father in paradise forever and ever. This world has corrupted itself because of the fall/sin of man turning away from God and the covenant promises He made with Abraham for every generation.

God is not going to force anyone to return back to Him, but has before the foundation of the world designed His plan for His salvation through Christ because He knew man would blow it and are in need of a Savior. We can talk to you until we are blue in the face sharing scripture with you, but yet it is up to you to allow Christ to be real to you and that comes by humbling your heart and talking to him like you talk to your best friend for that is who He wants to be in your life.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Never give up seeking as when you find this world will become a better place for you as the children of God are not of this world even though we still have to live in it for now.

 

[JohnDB]

There are endless options, we already have thousands of different creation stories. Pick which ever one floats your boat.

Its a question i am disinterested in - I am more interested in how to survive this world now.

I haven't studied the history of the bible but as I understand it the first "official" bible was edited and assembled by a bunch of old men at the third council of Nicea a a long time after Jesus died.

It's not like the original unedited complete bible written by god was found at the end of a lightning bolt. It's a mish mash of edited texts over a long time of evolution that Christians slaughtered each other over in large numbers to claim legitimacy of their version.

Not sure if this is true but the Quran is apparently a more consistent and cohesive text than our bible.

Okay,
History of the Bible "cliff notes version"

The Law aka five books of Moses were the first books written almost 6,000 years ago...
The rest of what we call the Old Testament and the New Testament were written over a period of roughly 1500 years for a grand total of 66 books and letters written by 40+/- 1 people.
The history of the English translation of the Bible is in our "School section" in a thread titled "Game Of Thrones" on this site.

The last book entered into the collection was the book of Jude. It was written by Jesus' half brother and only those who brought it to the Nicean council abstained from voting as they felt bias towards this short letter. Everyone else voted for it. The "forgotten books" or "removed books" were never considered scriptures to begin with. Not ever. To outsiders it can appear that way but then again they are uninformed "experts".

(Yes, I check sources and originators of sources)

The Sinai Codex is a complete manuscript dating back to around 100 AD. Meaning it contains Old Testament and the New... except for Jude...which was the last one to be voted scripture. (Those guys didn't even know about the Nicean council...once they learned about it they came and shared. )

But basically they had a complete working Bible by 100AD.

The Jews use the exact same Old Testament that Christians use. Only Christians use the New Testament. The Jews call theirs The Tenakh. (It's an abbreviated word for the Law, History, Psalms, Wisdom and the Prophets in one word)

The Koran came about in roughly 60AD written by Mohammed. (Best we can ascertain... Moslems aren't the most forthcoming with evidence but have varying claims)

Both religions do hold a very high reverence for their scriptures...and tend to exaggerate what the others believe or practice.

 

[Riverun]

But basically they had a complete working Bible by 100AD.

JohnDB, that is precisely my point that was objected to a few posts back.

Mortal fallible humans wrote the bible from heavily contested fragments of copies of things...God or Jesus did not write the bible - Christians historically slaughtered each other over what is considered the true bible. Geez Christians in my own town accuse other Christians of not being Christians because they interpret the bible different to each other...all the Christians in my town are united only that Catholics are not Christians and Christians are not Catholics and protestants are not........etc etc etc until we all go insane and then along come the Muslims, the new age gurus, the Hindus, ....

 

[Who Me]

There are endless options, we already have thousands of different creation stories. Pick which ever one floats your boat.

Its a question i am disinterested in - I am more interested in how to survive this world now.

I haven't studied the history of the bible but as I understand it the first "official" bible was edited and assembled by a bunch of old men at the third council of Nicea a a long time after Jesus died.

It's not like the original unedited complete bible written by god was found at the end of a lightning bolt. It's a mish mash of edited texts over a long time of evolution that Christians slaughtered each other over in large numbers to claim legitimacy of their version.

Not sure if this is true but the Quran is apparently a more consistent and cohesive text than our bible.

No I'm not talking about creation stories but about logical options.
As for the history of the bible, if you haven't studied it why do you parrot what is not part of the history of the bible.

Yes people have killed each other over how to understand the text, which text to follow and how to interpret the text. That apples equaly to politcal parties as to religous groups.

You are interest in surviving in this world.
What sort of world or society do you want to be part of?
One where law and order, respect for people and property and politeness is the norm or one whee it is survival of the fittest?

Most people prefer the former but guess what, that rest on Christian values.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB, that is precisely my point that was objected to a few posts back.

Mortal fallible humans wrote the bible from heavily contested fragments of copies of things...God or Jesus did not write the bible - Christians historically slaughtered each other over what is considered the true bible. Geez Christians in my own town accuse other Christians of not being Christians because they interpret the bible different to each other...all the Christians in my town are united only that Catholics are not Christians and Christians are not Catholics and protestants are not........etc etc etc until we all go insane and then along come the Muslims, the new age gurus, the Hindus, ....

The history of mankind is violent...no doubt. And many have used religious beliefs as propaganda to gain support for their violent efforts.
And this sort of thing (making propaganda out of theology) Jesus is quoted as specifically saying not to do.
So why does it happen?
Because people don't remember what Jesus/God has said and they twist other quotes to make them say what they want... becoming propaganda.

I agree completely that the world is a messed up place.
But there are these isolated pockets of good, moral, hardworking people who are absolutely happy and living in a happy, peaceful society. And adherence to the principles of Christianity is usually the central core of such societies.

Unimaginable atrocities as well as unbelievable joy and contentment all centered on this one book.
And I'm telling you that point blank those causing the atrocities as well as their supporters have ignored or not known what God has inspired to be written in the scriptures. Every last one of the "troublemakers" has been told by at least one to two people who knows better that they aren't behaving right...and promptly ignored them.
"Do it for the children" is another propaganda line...but even if our political leaders are behaving child like we still don't blame war on kids...
For whatever reason we like to believe that God needs us instead of us needing God.
Teenagers are notorious for this sort of behavior towards their parents.

You of course have the choice.
You can either build upon and enhance your grandparents legacy or you can expend it and drain the community you live in. One choice makes you out to be a "nobody". The other choice makes you notorious...and probably a nobody too.

I actually happen to be a very big fan of the "average guy" with a high moral compass and does his bit to enhance the community he lives in. Even though I am a construction Electrician I bake thousands of cookies and candies and at least half dozen gingerbread houses every year...all to be given away. All made in my "less than average" kitchen.

Christians have both kinds of people...the nutters and the really kind. Wolves and sheep.

We, as sheep, are supposed to run away from the wolves and abandon them to loneliness. Not support them in their battles against the "really bad wolves".

It's so easy to get caught up in doing the wrong things when we mean well. A sheep can become a wolf. And that's why we have traditions and rituals and practices and stories that we remember. That's why they are written down...
Most all of the manuscripts are catalogued and compared today. Hand written copyist mistakes and personal notes included in the scriptures are now seen for what they are.

They form the UBS v4 and Biblica Hebraica Stuttengartsia.

So that the Bible we have today is probably as accurate as the autographs. Yes, ordinary people penned the scriptures. Guys like you and me (with a couple notable exceptions)
But they had a personal relationship with God.

God created the natural order of things...He doesn't need a flash or a puff of smoke to make "magic" happen. Your grandparents did impossible things that are unimaginable for who they were. But God likely "greased the skids" for them...and they did the work.
God can move a mountain...but He doesn't because people need that mountain to be exactly where it is.