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SOF Sin Nature

Kkamagwi

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Kk,

You gave me a pretty good Calvinistic explanation but beginning with 'I believe' is not dealing with the exegesis of Acts 16.

You chose not to answer my question to you about Acts 16.

Oz
Oz, I've given my interpretation of the passage from Acts 16 that you asked me about, and I stand by it. I gave a full, detailed and lengthy response. I feel I have said enough on that passage at this time. Oh, and I'm not a Calvinist. ;)
 

Kkamagwi

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So far, you've shown great respect, and I can't tell you how much that means.
Thank you.
You're welcome StoveBolts. I graduated from a seminary in which many denominations are represented, so I learned to discuss and respect viewpoints other than my own. The SOF at this site seems to me to be more detailed than those of other forum sites I've been to. Does that reflect something thst happened in the history of the site?
 

StoveBolts

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You're welcome StoveBolts. I graduated from a seminary in which many denominations are represented, so I learned to discuss and respect viewpoints other than my own. The SOF at this site seems to me to be more detailed than those of other forum sites I've been to. Does that reflect something thst happened in the history of the site?
I believe history drives a lot of everyone's belief and behavior regardless of who you are. As far as our SOF, yes, there is history.

I have been a member here since 2004. In 2014 I became an Admin with a vision. The site was thriving and we had a decent community. Tragidy struck my life and I stepped down and I was away until I got pulled back begrudgingly January a year ago for tech support.

In my opinion, the site consisted of fights and arguments between members. It wasn't a healthy community that fostered growth and unity but instead, it breed division and dispute.

The owner had sent a few of his friends as well as his daughter to give him feedback on his site. Needless to say, he was not pleased. He elevated me to lead Admin and told me to shut the site down and start over.

Instead of shutting the site down, I pruned the membership and currently, we are 1/3 the size we were a year ago, but we are growing.

I had an opportunity to purchase the site 5 months ago, so I did. My vision from 2014 still burns deep inside of me, and I want this site to give glory to God by showing the world that we can be United in Christ, even though we may have theological differences. I want this site to be a safe place to discuss our differences with respect while showing Godly love for one another.

We, as a community took on an endevour to write our SOF so we would have a baseline for any of our new members who wanted to come here for debate. I can't tell you how sick I get when people come here looking for a theological fight, and my patience has thinned. Not because I hate or dispise other views outside of our SOF, but because we should be looking for common ground and building one another up in Christ. Unfortunately, there are many who come here for the sake of argument and only want to argue. Those are the new members we want to discourage.

If I have misread you, please forgive me.
 

iLOVE

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What reactivates the sin nature in the life of the Christian?
 
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IF we want to be clear ad honest there is a lot of work needed here.
We are saved by Accepting and Confessing Jesus as LORD.

LORD
Rom 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
The early Church gave true loyalty to Jesus as LORD. We have little idea of what the word “LORD” means. The ancient soldiers knelt as subjects before their Lord, bowled their head in respect before their Lord, swore by their position or weapon of battle their LIFE to their Lord, YES, it still means that today. Calling Jesus Lord means I give Him everything, My Life, all I have, all I dream of being.


Righteousness
Here we come to a most important pair of ideas, Grace and works (right living).
. The righteousness of God is needed because man has no righteousness acceptable to God. No one was ever saved by the Law of Moses for by the law is the knowledge of sin. And there were the traditions and laws of men that date back to Ancient Times which said man by knowledge and his ability can overcome evil and come to God.
Only obedience to the Self-existent Holy God and His Righteousness are good enough to come into the presence of God. No one has ever lived up to the Glory of God in never failing to obey Him in all things. We are all still under the Law, because the Law has always been to point out what “Sin” is and not saving any one from sin.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
No man is or can be saved by the law or any other power of man or earth.
the righteousness of God is manifested ie made known to man.
In Adam, God gave Adam the Blood sacrifice and the promise of a Messiah.
The promise was repeated in Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets.
Some 79 times in the OT God said “Hear my Voice (word), and keep my commandments and I will be your GOD. NOT the Law but OBEDIENCE.
The righteousness of God which is ours in GRACE by faith in Jesus Christ
Made Righteous freely by His Grace through the propitiation in Jesus Christ.
Grace is the unmerited gift of a loving Father to meet our need in what we could not do.
faith is when the TRUTH of that gift becomes real to me and I accept it without having to see the evidence.

SIN;
We must define a word here, it is used in so many ways and most wrong, we need to get it meaning right.
SIN = ἁμαρτάνω hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
  1. to be without a share in
  2. to miss the mark
Rom 3:23 for all miss the mark and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:23 for all are without a share in the glory of God,
BUT, LOOK AT THE VERSE, IT SAYS WE MISS THE MARK OF THE GLORY OF GOD CREATED IN US!! WE miss the mark, fail to follow the PATH, AND FAIL TO SHARE IN GOD’S GLORY. WE FAIL TO OBEY GOD!
God created mankind with the ability and right to CHOOSE to OBEY HIM or NOT!
Satan's victory in the Garden gave him a hold in decieving People to think they did not need God. But, forever to disobey God is SIN!!
The Idea of SIN being great or small, seems to me to be an inconstancy in thought. Sin, to leave the path, or to miss God’s glory is to Disobey GOD!

I ask what is there that we do that is “the Source of our SIN beyond a choice to disobey GOD”. There is no work that we may do to gain, deserve, or to earn God’s Grace. I will also say there is no act or work we may do to gain, deserve, or earn rejection from grace and a place in Hell beyond a choice to reject GOD. Man rejecting God will live as he chooses and all the evil resulting there is only the natural behavior of rejecting God. This evil shows one that rejects God, BUT, the subject is still a Choice Obey God or Not. We spend too much time focused on “Evil” and not enough time really focused on “Knowing GOD!”
God’s Grace is freely offered, and we by faith accept or ignore that offer.


We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin
and are born with a sinful nature.
They can be saved by
repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
There was a man that was paralyzed , and one day his friends cut a hole in the roof of the place Jesus was preaching and lowered him down in front of Jesus . And he was healed and saved because his friends did the work of getting the helpless man to Jesus . Long before Romans 10 and 9 were even written . Was Jesus allowed to save that man by his friends faith ? Today Jesus would be called a heretic . But faith is what saves . Faith In Jesus . As those who love Jesus pray for those unable to understand , maybe we should stand in our faith for them, rather than worry if they are able to confess in their lack of earthly ability to do so on their own behalf . “Some will come rejoicing , some will come in sorrow . And some will come with others, as offerings . “ the book of Esdras .
 

Truthfrees

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The sin nature is a result of the Fall. When the believing sinner comes to Christ, the sin nature is made ineffective (Rom. 6:6). It will remain ineffective if the believer maintains unceasing Faith in Christ and the Cross (Rom. 6:1-14). If the believer ceases to look to Christ and the Cross, but rather makes something else the object of his faith—no matter how good the something else might be—the Holy Spirit will not function in such an atmosphere. He demands exclusively that our Faith be in Christ and the Cross (Rom. 8:1-2,11). If faith is moved to something else, the believer will find himself once again being ruled by the sin nature. That's why Paul said, "Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin (the sin nature): but yield yourselves unto God (which refers to God's Way, which is Christ and the Cross)" (Rom. 6:3-5, 13). Otherwise, the sin nature will rule the believer.

JSM
interesting how you worded this - amen

apart from ME you can do nothing - John 15:5
 

RevSRE

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There was a man that was paralyzed , and one day his friends cut a hole in the roof of the place Jesus was preaching and lowered him down in front of Jesus . And he was healed and saved because his friends did the work of getting the helpless man to Jesus . Long before Romans 10 and 9 were even written . Was Jesus allowed to save that man by his friends faith ? Today Jesus would be called a heretic . But faith is what saves . Faith In Jesus . As those who love Jesus pray for those unable to understand , maybe we should stand in our faith for them, rather than worry if they are able to confess in their lack of earthly ability to do so on their own behalf . “Some will come rejoicing , some will come in sorrow . And some will come with others, as offerings . “ the book of Esdras .
Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.
Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.
Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

And where does it say the four had faith . And where does it say the sick man DID NOT.
IS it not possible that all 5 had faith, I am sure at least the sick man DID!!
 

OzSpen

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Oz, I've given my interpretation of the passage from Acts 16 that you asked me about, and I stand by it. I gave a full, detailed and lengthy response. I feel I have said enough on that passage at this time. Oh, and I'm not a Calvinist. ;)
Kk,

Acts 16:31 uses the Greek imperative (command) from Paul and Silas: 'You believe ...'.

God didn't do the believing for the Philippian jailer.

Oz
 
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I was actua
There was a man that was paralyzed , and one day his friends cut a hole in the roof of the place Jesus was preaching and lowered him down in front of Jesus . And he was healed and saved because his friends did the work of getting the helpless man to Jesus . Long before Romans 10 and 9 were even written . Was Jesus allowed to save that man by his friends faith ? Today Jesus would be called a heretic . But faith is what saves . Faith In Jesus . As those who love Jesus pray for those unable to understand , maybe we should stand in our faith for them, rather than worry if they are able to confess in their lack of earthly ability to do so on their own behalf . “Some will come rejoicing , some will come in sorrow . And some will come with others, as offerings . “ the book of Esdras .
i was actually only referring to the comment about a person disabled and unable to speak from their mouth or any physical disability that prevents them from speaking , to be able to confess out loud . Like maybe a person in a coma . And that our faith for those is just as important as our faith for ourselves to be saved . I thank Jesus He looks upon the heart and not the physical inability for those who can’t and those who stand in for them.
 
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I was actua

i was actually only referring to the comment about a person disabled and unable to speak from their mouth or any physical disability that prevents them from speaking , to be able to confess out loud . Like maybe a person in a coma . And that our faith for those is just as important as our faith for ourselves to be saved . I thank Jesus He looks upon the heart and not the physical inability for those who can’t and those who stand in for them.
Sorry for any confusion . I stand in faith for many that are unable to themselves, let alone read a bible . And I’ve seen The Lord do many miracles for them.
 
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welcome to CFnet, Ruth's promise. I believe the prayers of other Christians who believed in Jesus and believed in His power to save me and eventually make me whole are a big part of my "spiritual journey" that I will probably never be fully aware of, this side of Heaven.

A Bible-believing, godly woman named Verna started praying for me when she 1st met me, at her church. I was on an outing for a Christian organization that helps those trapped in darkness (long story...). She gave me her address, we kept in touch...

and I didn't get genuinely saved until Jesus moved upon my heart, 3 years after I met Verna. Pride? Yes. And...brain damage. I'd been given heavy, involuntary shock 'treatments' and basically destroyed, both by my own sins and psych 'treatment.' and now...

labeled in the community and world at large, but...6 years into my Walk with The Lord, Verna's faith--as well as my own, growing faith--has been richly rewarded. I am healthy, I am intelligent (somehow, even my IQ estimate has gone up a good bit over these past 6 years...), and I now pray for those I knew and still know in darkness.

ok. sorry to ramble, blah blah...I just never thought of that, your interpretation of Scripture. Now that I think about it...I think you're spot on. God bless. :)
 
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welcome to CFnet, Ruth's promise. I believe the prayers of other Christians who believed in Jesus and believed in His power to save me and eventually make me whole are a big part of my "spiritual journey" that I will probably never be fully aware of, this side of Heaven.

A Bible-believing, godly woman named Verna started praying for me when she 1st met me, at her church. I was on an outing for a Christian organization that helps those trapped in darkness (long story...). She gave me her address, we kept in touch...

and I didn't get genuinely saved until Jesus moved upon my heart, 3 years after I met Verna. Pride? Yes. And...brain damage. I'd been given heavy, involuntary shock 'treatments' and basically destroyed, both by my own sins and psych 'treatment.' and now...

labeled in the community and world at large, but...6 years into my Walk with The Lord, Verna's faith--as well as my own, growing faith--has been richly rewarded. I am healthy, I am intelligent (somehow, even my IQ estimate has gone up a good bit over these past 6 years...), and I now pray for those I knew and still know in darkness.

ok. sorry to ramble, blah blah...I just never thought of that, your interpretation of Scripture. Now that I think about it...I think you're spot on. God bless. :)
That’s a beautiful testimony ! I know many people that are reaching and aren’t sure of what it is they are reaching for , I know it’s Jesus , and I pray for them and I see Jesus move in beautiful ways to touch their hearts and draw them to Him .
“ we Love Him , because He FIRST Loved us”
Years ago I was searching and had no clue what I was searching for , and Jesus came to me thru the prayers of someone I didn’t even know yet . Now that He has taught me and led me , He’s also given me hind sight to see that He came for me when I didn’t even know who He was . I thank God for those people that He’s put in places and given eyes to see the lost and the heart to pray for them. I’d be lost if it weren’t for those precious people .
He leaves the 99 to go after the one lost ! And as psalms says , He lifts up the one lost sheep and carries that one on His shoulders .
Much Love ! I praise our Father!
 

Book Keeper

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I believe history drives a lot of everyone's belief and behavior regardless of who you are. As far as our SOF, yes, there is history.

I have been a member here since 2004. In 2014 I became an Admin with a vision. The site was thriving and we had a decent community. Tragidy struck my life and I stepped down and I was away until I got pulled back begrudgingly January a year ago for tech support.

In my opinion, the site consisted of fights and arguments between members. It wasn't a healthy community that fostered growth and unity but instead, it breed division and dispute.

The owner had sent a few of his friends as well as his daughter to give him feedback on his site. Needless to say, he was not pleased. He elevated me to lead Admin and told me to shut the site down and start over.

Instead of shutting the site down, I pruned the membership and currently, we are 1/3 the size we were a year ago, but we are growing.

I had an opportunity to purchase the site 5 months ago, so I did. My vision from 2014 still burns deep inside of me, and I want this site to give glory to God by showing the world that we can be United in Christ, even though we may have theological differences. I want this site to be a safe place to discuss our differences with respect while showing Godly love for one another.

We, as a community took on an endevour to write our SOF so we would have a baseline for any of our new members who wanted to come here for debate. I can't tell you how sick I get when people come here looking for a theological fight, and my patience has thinned. Not because I hate or dispise other views outside of our SOF, but because we should be looking for common ground and building one another up in Christ. Unfortunately, there are many who come here for the sake of argument and only want to argue. Those are the new members we want to discourage.

If I have misread you, please forgive me.
Basically everyone needs to be an Angel like me. :chin
No...seriously, I think this site is at a great position; the members here are kind, caring and considerate.
Thank you for sharing that StoveBolts.
 

Redwords lou

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SB,

What I wrote in the 'New Statement of Faith' thread applies here:

As for the sinful nature (or, original sin), I consider that Wayne Grudem's use of 'inherited sin' rather than 'original sin' has merit. Therefore, I suggest this to be included in the SoF:

All human beings were represented by Adam when he was tested in the Garden of Eden. Since he was people's representative, Adam sinned and God counted all people guilty (including Adam) before God. From the beginning of our existence as persons we have inherited sin, but it is still our sin because we commit sin (see Rom 5:12-21; adapted from Grudem 1994:494-495).​

For infants and mentally challenged, the above statement covers them because 'inherited sin' must be accompanied by those who 'commit sin'.

Infants and the mentally challenged don't have the ability to understand and respond to Jesus in repentance and faith. This also means they have an inability to reject Jesus.

We do have Jesus' statement about infants and heaven: "Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t keep them away. The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them"' (Matt 19:14 NIRV).

I can't find any specific biblical statement regarding salvation and the mentally challenged. However, because of God's nature - his love, grace and mercy - it would be consistent with Matt 19:14 for Jesus to apply this verses to the mentally challenged who are under the umbrella of "people like them (children)".

I understand that mentally handicapped people are covered by this principle as well. The Word of God does not specifically say this, however. Knowing the love, grace, and mercy of God, this would seem consistent with His character.

There is some insight in Deut 1:39 (NIRV), 'You said your little ones would be taken prisoner. But they will enter the land. They do not yet know right from wrong. But I will give them the land. They will take it as their own' (emphasis added).

Regarding those who have never heard the Gospel, this is what Scripture states:
18 God shows his anger from heaven. It is against all the godless and evil things people do. They are so evil that they say no to the truth. 19 The truth about God is plain to them. God has made it plain. 20 Ever since the world was created it has been possible to see the qualities of God that are not seen. I’m talking about his eternal power and about the fact that he is God. Those things can be seen in what he has made. So people have no excuse for what they do.​
21 They knew God. But they didn’t honor him as God. They didn’t thank him. Their thinking became worthless. Their foolish hearts became dark. 22 They claimed to be wise. But they made fools of themselves. 23 They would rather have statues of gods than the glorious God who lives forever. Their statues of gods are made to look like people, birds, animals and reptiles.​
24 So God let them go. He allowed them to do what their sinful hearts wanted to (Rom 1:18-24a NIRV).​
The person without the Gospel when faced with God will have to answer the questions: What did you do with the evidence I (God) gave you in creation of my existence? What did you do with these pointers to me as the truth of God that are seen in what God has has made?

These are thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

Works consulted

Grudem, W 1994. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.
Great post man!
 

RevSRE

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Rev,

How then do you account for the content of this Scripture: 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned' (Rom 5:12 NIV)?

Oz
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Please read BOTH SIDES OF THE VERSE. If every time you see the word SIN in the Bible you read DISOBEYED you will began to get the picture. We so often take the Result of disobedience (all the evil that can be done) as the meaning we miss the point. God gave us all the ability and the right to CHOODE to obey and fellowship with Him WE CHOOSE NOT TO. The "NATURE" is to, in the Image of God we have, to Choose to OBEY GOD or NOT! We make the evil men do something they can't control that is wrong. God gave us the Ability and Right to CHOOSE. A Holy Life in Jesus Christ is a choice to serve and obey Him, we do have that choice. This is what Wesley and so many others have called "Prefection" a choice to obey GOD.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.



God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Looking forward to the PROMICE! (Gen 3:15 The First Gospel.) Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not! Adam knew that he could choose to obey God this time and make the sacrifices God told him to make. He was still the highest of God’s creation, still had dominion over the world, and still could make Free Will Choices.

It is foolish to say Adam after he disobeyed God was so sinful that he could not Know God. From WHAT TREE did he eat? I thought it was the “Knowledge of Good and Evil”. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
 
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OzSpen

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RevSRE,

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
How can this one act of righteousness for justification (the death of Jesus) ' have 'resulted in justification and life for all people' (NIV)? Do you consider this verse supports universalism of justification 'for all people'? If not, why not?

Oz
 

Kkamagwi

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Kk,

Acts 16:31 uses the Greek imperative (command) from Paul and Silas: 'You believe ...'.

God didn't do the believing for the Philippian jailer.

Oz
God gave the gift of faith to the jailer, thus enabling the jailer to believe.
 

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