Why the difference of forgiveness?

[Shekinahglory]

In Mark 2: 10 the Lord tells those assembled that so they would know that He had the authority on earth to forgive sins he Would have the forgiven sinner get up and walk. The man promptly did so at which point nobody who opposed Him believed Him anyway. If we switch the scene the Lord is laying on His cross and He asks The Father to forgive them why /

 

[Randy]

In Mark 2: 10 the Lord tells those assembled that so they would know that He had the authority on earth to forgive sins he Would have the forgiven sinner get up and walk. The man promptly did so at which point nobody who opposed Him believed Him anyway. If we switch the scene the Lord is laying on His cross and He asks The Father to forgive them why /

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost

The man came to Jesus because He believed that Jesus was from God and He was clean because of the word Jesus spoke to Him and received healing. His faith saved Him.

Those responsible for the harm against Jesus were forgiven for that act only and were held accountable for other sins if they remained in their unbelief. Jesus forgave His enemies for acts against Him just as He taught us to pray for and forgive our enemies.

Same Love.

 

[Who Me]

Jesus forgave His enemies for acts against Him just as He taught us to pray for and forgive our enemies.

The words Jesus used were,'Father, forgive them.'

He was asking God to forgive, he was not forgiving them.

As the Jews knew there could never be forgiveness from God unless they repented.

The whole sacrificial system was built around a repentant worshipper coming to offer a sacrifice for there sin.
It was so drummed into them that they didn,t explain it clearly to non Jews.

 

[Randy]

The words Jesus used were,'Father, forgive them.'

He was asking God to forgive, he was not forgiving them.

As the Jews knew there could never be forgiveness from God unless they repented.

The whole sacrificial system was built around a repentant worshipper coming to offer a sacrifice for there sin.
It was so drummed into them that they didn,t explain it clearly to non Jews.

I like what I wrote. In keeping with my Lords will Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

As I noted the sin "against Jesus" was not held against them. They were still accountable for their other sins if they remained in their unbelief.

 

[WIP]

Is it also noteworthy that Jesus also said something to the effect that He does not speak of Himself but speaks what the Father tells Him, therefore, even when He was asking the Father to forgive them, did He not also want them forgiven?

 

[Randy]

Is it also noteworthy that Jesus also said something to the effect that He does not speak of Himself but speaks what the Father tells Him, therefore, even when He was asking the Father to forgive them, did He not also want them forgiven?

Yes

Another example -Stephen knew Jesus
"this sin"

While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[Shekinahglory]

His Word is so amazing not only for what the Lord openly states but for those things we must really search out through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, dwelling on the Word as Mary did and the action of discussing these things. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12 and add to this passage from John12 and apply it to the two different forgiveness. As long as I am in the world I will forgive sins but when I am lifted up on the cross off of this world He humbled Himself and gave up His right as Sovereign to forgive, The Lord was now taking the sin of the world upon Himself and all the horrors that entailed physically and spiritually. All judgment has been given to the Son and He set His right aside only while He was lifted up on the cross.

There is so much that Scripture holds for us much of it not earthshaking but it adds so much to our understanding. The Lord said that He was the Light of the World while He was in the world. The Lord remains our Light as believers but the light you see daily in the sky is not the Light of the World guiding unbelievers. We have been given the honor as being in His Kingdom to have all the promises He has made us because He, the Father and the Spirit dwell in our hearts and He remains our Lord and Light for this journey. Unbelievers do not even know that as sunny it maybe outside they stumble through a world filled with spiritual darkness. Because He has ascended into heaven He has done this with His Body:
Matthew 5:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)

14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

As we are also told this:
Matthew 16:19

And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Of course this does not mean we take over the Job of the Judge Jesus Christ. We are to make disciples of all men by telling the Good News and that is freeing or binding according to His Sovereign Will through His Body still here on earth.

 

[Who Me]

I like what I wrote. In keeping with my Lords will Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

As I noted the sin "against Jesus" was not held against them. They were still accountable for their other sins if they remained in their unbelief.

Asking is not the same as getting.
There is no biblical evidence or even reason for your assumption.

The biblical evidence is that forgiveness only happens after repentance.

 

[Randy]

Asking is not the same as getting.
There is no biblical evidence or even reason for your assumption.

The biblical evidence is that forgiveness only happens after repentance.

There is biblical evidence that Jesus didn't want the sin against Him held against those responsible. He asked the Father openly to forgive them for they know not what they do. The only sin that won't be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Is your assumption the Father refused Jesus?

You can not limit Gods mercy.

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[Randy]

Intercession is biblical.

 

[Who Me]

There is biblical evidence that Jesus didn't want the sin against Him held against those responsible. He asked the Father openly to forgive them for they know not what they do. The only sin that won't be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Is your assumption the Father refused Jesus?

You can not limit Gods mercy.

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Whatbiblical evidence?
That he asked the Father to forgive them. That is merely Jesus showing that he loved them. It has nothing to say about how God has always acted to over mercy or about God's requirement that there be repentance.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus as our mediator before the Father, sitting at God's right hand hears our petition/prayers, even for forgiveness as we repent of our sin. In Christ we have forgiveness of sin by God's grace of the finished works on the cross as Jesus, on our behalf against the accusations of Satan, speaks to God who forgives our sin when we repent and humble ourselves before Him.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7: 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[GodsGrace]

Asking is not the same as getting.
There is no biblical evidence or even reason for your assumption.

The biblical evidence is that forgiveness only happens after repentance.

You're speaking about when a person sins.
The person sins and for that sin to be forgiven he must ask forgiveness.

Jesus, from the cross, asked Father to forgive these men their sin of crucifying Him.

WE are also asked to forgive others when they harm us...whether they ask for it or not. This is the whole point to forgiveness....we must forgive others so that God will forgive us...even if we don't undersand this, we must still do it.

And you realize, I'm sure, that we forgive also for ourselves...to free us up and release the bitterness in us so that we could more freely serve God.

Jesus forgave the Romans and Jews for their acts against HIM,,,as Randy has stated in posts 2 and 4.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Whatbiblical evidence?
That he asked the Father to forgive them. That is merely Jesus showing that he loved them. It has nothing to say about how God has always acted to over mercy or about God's requirement that there be repentance.

I wonder how many that were involved in the crucifixion repented days, weeks, months, years later. Can you imagine the guilt? The remorse?

 

[Who Me]

You're speaking about when a person sins.
The person sins and for that sin to be forgiven he must ask forgiveness.

Jesus, from the cross, asked Father to forgive these men their sin of crucifying Him.

WE are also asked to forgive others when they harm us...whether they ask for it or not. This is the whole point to forgiveness....we must forgive others so that God will forgive us...even if we don't undersand this, we must still do it.

And you realize, I'm sure, that we forgive also for ourselves...to free us up and release the bitterness in us so that we could more freely serve God.

Jesus forgave the Romans and Jews for their acts against HIM,,,as Randy has stated in posts 2 and 4.

Sorry but you do not understand how forgiveness has been given by God through the Bible.
Every time before God forgives there has to be repentance on the part of the sinner, from Cain right up to the sinner repenting as you read this.
Look at God's promises to Israel, there are warnings of what will happen if Israel breaks the covenant and there is the promise that if'My people will turn from their wicked ways and pray, then I(God) will hear from heaven and heal there land.'

Read about the sacrifices for sin. The person offering that sacrifice had to pay their hand on the animals head, signifing that their sins were being symbolically being transferred to the animal. One cannot go through such a service and not be repentant.
You want something more up to date try Luke 17. It says, if they repent, forgive.
Or you have the tax collector praying in the temple, what did he say. God be mercifully to me a sinner. Jesus said he was justified.

Yes we have to be prepared, ready to forgive but like God we forgive on someone saying sorry.

While we wait, we copy Jesus and pray for whoever it is that has hurt us, pray seriously for their good none of the unscriptual ' God bless...' rubbish but detailed request for their good.

 

[Who Me]

I wonder how many that were involved in the crucifixion repented days, weeks, months, years later. Can you imagine the guilt? The remorse?

Hardens long service legionaries who had done it many times before.
The odds are they never gave it much thought.

 

[Boaz]

Whatbiblical evidence?
That he asked the Father to forgive them. That is merely Jesus showing that he loved them. It has nothing to say about how God has always acted to over mercy or about God's requirement that there be repentance.

I'm quite certain the Father never refused any request of Jesus as they are One. There is one exception. When Jesus asked that the cup He was about to drink, the cup of God's wrath against us who believe, He also included "if it be Your will." He was asking as fully man (but also fully God) who was about to face unimaginable pain and suffering. Yet. He also knew that it was the fulfilment of what He had been sent to do.They were One in unity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He completed what He came to do. Other than that, Jesus never would, never could ask for anything and be refused by the Father or it would be a house devided. And I agree that it was for that one sin of crucifying Him, or approving of it, and the reason was that they did not know what they were doing. They didn't know who He was. And if they had known they may have not let it happen, but it had to happen. It was necessary, from before the foundation of the world.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Sorry but you do not understand how forgiveness has been given by God through the Bible.
Every time before God forgives there has to be repentance on the part of the sinner, from Cain right up to the sinner repenting as you read this.
Look at God's promises to Israel, there are warnings of what will happen if Israel breaks the covenant and there is the promise that if'My people will turn from their wicked ways and pray, then I(God) will hear from heaven and heal there land.'

Read about the sacrifices for sin. The person offering that sacrifice had to pay their hand on the animals head, signifing that their sins were being symbolically being transferred to the animal. One cannot go through such a service and not be repentant.
You want something more up to date try Luke 17. It says, if they repent, forgive.
Or you have the tax collector praying in the temple, what did he say. God be mercifully to me a sinner. Jesus said he was justified.

Yes we have to be prepared, ready to forgive but like God we forgive on someone saying sorry.

While we wait, we copy Jesus and pray for whoever it is that has hurt us, pray seriously for their good none of the unscriptual ' God bless...' rubbish but detailed request for their good.

We are told to forgive regardless of repentance. Jesus gave us the example to live by in the Lord's Prayer and in His actions up to even His death.
But, God forgives Man through confession,repentance.
We forgive Man regardless. So we are commanded.
Forgiveness on our part does not mean we have to continue in abusive relationships though.

 

[Boaz]

Sorry but you do not understand how forgiveness has been given by God through the Bible.
Every time before God forgives there has to be repentance on the part of the sinner, from Cain right up to the sinner repenting as you read this.
Look at God's promises to Israel, there are warnings of what will happen if Israel breaks the covenant and there is the promise that if'My people will turn from their wicked ways and pray, then I(God) will hear from heaven and heal there land.'

Read about the sacrifices for sin. The person offering that sacrifice had to pay their hand on the animals head, signifing that their sins were being symbolically being transferred to the animal. One cannot go through such a service and not be repentant.
You want something more up to date try Luke 17. It says, if they repent, forgive.
Or you have the tax collector praying in the temple, what did he say. God be mercifully to me a sinner. Jesus said he was justified.

Yes we have to be prepared, ready to forgive but like God we forgive on someone saying sorry.

While we wait, we copy Jesus and pray for whoever it is that has hurt us, pray seriously for their good none of the unscriptual ' God bless...' rubbish but detailed request for their good.

You are trying to lump all sorts of different things into one and it doesn't work that way.
Regarding the covenant with Israel it was a bilateral covenant, and a land covenant,meaning God says you can keep this land and I will bless and protect you IF; and then He sets the conditions they have to meet. The passage that says if you humble yourselves and pray etc. Says nothing about repentance.
The sacrifices were a temporary covering (pointing to Jesus)for sin so God didn't have to destroy them. Nothing about repentance, you injected that into the passage.

Did Cain repent?

The tax collector wasn't repenting he was recognizing that he was a sinner and only God's mercy could preserve him.

I realize the Bible says in places, repent and be saved but it also says be baptized and be saved, yet most Christians understand that neither repentance or baptism saves anyone, only Faith in Jesus does. Baptism is a representation of our dying and being raised with Christ, and repentance shows we have recognized our sin against God and desire to no longer do those things. I don't believe we can truly repent until we are saved. We can be sorry. We can know one things are wrong and make human effort to fix ourselves. But repentance in the Bible has to first recognize our offense AGAINST GOD. Not people. Until we are saved, in Christ, we will never recognize this

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry but you do not understand how forgiveness has been given by God through the Bible.
Every time before God forgives there has to be repentance on the part of the sinner, from Cain right up to the sinner repenting as you read this.
Look at God's promises to Israel, there are warnings of what will happen if Israel breaks the covenant and there is the promise that if'My people will turn from their wicked ways and pray, then I(God) will hear from heaven and heal there land.'

Read about the sacrifices for sin. The person offering that sacrifice had to pay their hand on the animals head, signifing that their sins were being symbolically being transferred to the animal. One cannot go through such a service and not be repentant.
You want something more up to date try Luke 17. It says, if they repent, forgive.
Or you have the tax collector praying in the temple, what did he say. God be mercifully to me a sinner. Jesus said he was justified.

Yes we have to be prepared, ready to forgive but like God we forgive on someone saying sorry.

While we wait, we copy Jesus and pray for whoever it is that has hurt us, pray seriously for their good none of the unscriptual ' God bless...' rubbish but detailed request for their good.

I know biblical forgiveness well.
I think you should re-read my other post.

Let me ask you this:

Your best friend does something to really hurt you.
You feel you cannot speak to him anymore.

Do you wait for him to ask YOUR forgiveness before you forgive him?