What's new
Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • We have just installed new software to help eliminate spam. If you experience any issues logging in or creating a new account, please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page and we will assist you. Thank you!
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

Why the difference of forgiveness?

wondering

Supporter
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
13,413
Gender
Female
Asking is not the same as doing.
I can't imagine what I said to make you say the above.
I know this quite well.

If I ask for a plate to be passed, it is not the same as if I pass the plate.
Jesus ask God the Father to forgive them. He is praying for unrepentant sinners, showing them emence love and grace in seeking their benefit. He did not forgive them.

Yes God has forgiven me my sins.
He did it when I turned in repentance to him.

You need to fit Luke 17 into your understanding of forgiveness, as well as how the Jews in the OT understood how forgiveness worked.
The Jews in the O.T. understood their sins to be forgiven EVERY TIME they made a sacrifice to God. Did they sacrifice only ONE animal in their entire lives?

As to Luke 17...the verse please.
 

Who Me

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
578
Gender
Male
I can't imagine what I said to make you say the above.
I know this quite well.


The Jews in the O.T. understood their sins to be forgiven EVERY TIME they made a sacrifice to God. Did they sacrifice only ONE animal in their entire lives?

As to Luke 17...the verse please.
I said that because people keep assuming that Jesus's prayer asking God to forgive is Jesus actually forgiving. It is not.

Yes the Jews assumed there sins were forgiven when they made a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. This would be done at a minimum of once a year. But in order to make that sacrifice they had to do two things.
Acknowledge they were a sinner and be repentant.
The whole Bible teaches that there has to be repentance for there to be forgiveness.


So you have never read Luke 17 and have not encountere this verse that destroys the false belief that Christians must always forgive.
Luke 17 :3-4,If your brother sins against you, rebuke him and if he repents forgive him. Even if he sins against you 7 times in a day and comes back each time saying I repent you must forgive him.
 

Not_Now.Soon

Supporter
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
2,425
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
To Who Me and wondering.

So setting aside how often to forgive, and who to forgive. Let's talk about what forgiveness looks like. Because there's several things going on here that muddies up the basic action of forgiveness.

I'll start with one example of what forgiveness doesn't look like, but it was still claimed to be given. When I was a teen I dated a girl who said she forgave me on one thing or another. But whenever she got angry or wanted to put herself in a higher place (at my expense) she would bring up that thing that she said she had already forgiven. Thus showing no forgiveness was given.

Though we might not rub someone else's fault in their face if we say we forgive them, there's a second form of forgiveness to consider if it is really forgiveness or not. It's when consquences are still in play while forgiveness is claimed to have been given. Saying I forgive you for wrecking my car, but I'll never let you borrow it again. Is that really forgiveness? Or is forgiveness not there if you learned a lesson to not set yourself up for the same situation. That's a kind of gray area, but a lot of claimed forgiveness resides in this catogary. From the phrase forgive but never forget, to the other extreem of saying you forgive someone but they will still have to pay for the damages they owe, or go to prison for their crime, or any other consquence that fits the situation.

wondering made a point on a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. However I have to ask can you have forgiveness without reconciliation?

Good post.

Forgiving to resume a relationship is called Reconciliation.

This is forgiving:

View attachment 9299



This is Reconciliation:


View attachment 9300
Asking for God's help in forgiveness is usually a good thing expecially on the hard issues to forgive. And sometimes that's all we can do because we need God's help to truely forgive the other person. Because forgiveness is hard.

Lastly I want to cover what is known as real forgiveness. Everything else in the gray area of trying to forgive or learning from their actions and not repeating the mistake, all of those different types of situations can be scrunitized over whether they really count as forgiving, or whether they count as not forgiving. Honestly I put them in a gray area because that's where they are in my mind.

Nonetheless, here is what I know is forgiveness. It is the extreem of forgiveness in the bible. Psalms 103:12 (NLT)

12 He has removed our sins as far from us
as the east is from the west.

That is most definately what forgiveness looks like. And my question is is this what forgiveness should look like from us as well? Not just forgiveness from God. Or what does forgiveness look like to you?
 

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
As the Bible teaches forgiveness is conditional on repentance.
We have to be ready and willing to forgive. If unable to forgive because there is no repentance, then like Jesus on the cross we commend the offender to God, praying for them. Asking God to deal with them and our emotions about the situation.
Ultimately our ability to either forgive or to hand over to God is totally dependent on Gods grace to us.
There are two types of forgiveness spoken of in the Bible. God's forgiveness of sinners, which is an absolute wiping out of the offense from our "record". This is an act of mercy by Grace, based on our being in Christ through faith in Him, and therein having His righteousness imputed to us; and His having paid the blood price for us.
Then their is the forgiveness He instructs us to have for one another, and all people who sin against us. He says we are to be merciful because we have been shown mercy. Our forgiveness towards a person does not remove their sin or their offense against us. That is in God's hands alone. Only He can do that. Something to consider then is that if the offender is a Christian or ever becomes one, they ARE forgiven by God. He will certainly deal with them about the matter in whatever way He determines is best, but the sin is forgiven. Who are we to hold against someone what God does not.
If they are NOT and never will be a Christian, (and we don't know this, can't know this, so we can't judge)then the sin won't be forgiven by God. The purpose of forgiving one another on the human level is because we are made in the image of God, as is everyone, we as Christians, having been shown mercy, are to imitate that mercy. We are not, as children of God, supposed to live our lives harboring hatred and forgiveness. The passage about if they repent is not an excuse or loop hole for refusing to forgive.
Forgiving, from the human perspective, is saying about the offender and the offense that they owe you nothing. Not apology, not restitution, not anything. Their debt is to God and He will see it's paid, in this life, in the next or by Jesus. And He will take care of and watch over you. You can let it go as they say. No longer to haunt you or make you angry or upset. It is very freeing.
And if it is hard or seems impossible, as it often does, I say from experience, that crying out in all sincerity to God that you don't want to forgive but desperately want to want to forgive, He just may, as He did for me, meet you right then and there with not only the desire to forgive, but also forgiving. It is like a glass of cold water after days in a hot dry dessert.
Holding forgiveness in our hearts hurts us. It does not hurt the one we don't forgive.
 

Not_Now.Soon

Supporter
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
2,425
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Our forgiveness towards a person does not remove their sin or their offense against us. That is in God's hands alone. Only He can do that.
Boaz, you said a lot in your last reply. But I'd like you to clarify the part tgat I'm waiting. When you say forgiving some one does not remove their offense against us, do you mean tgat they still need to pay for damages if they broke something, or need to go to jail if they broke a law against us? This doesn't sound like forgiveness to me. But instead I'm wondering about the parable of the forgiving king and the unforgiving debtor. In that parable a king forgave one man's large debt (the king on this case would be God), and later the man sought out some one else who owed a debt to him and demanded payment, even put the other person in jail till they could pay it. The king punished the man for what he did because he did not forgive the other man's debts.

I worry that this is the kind of forgiveness that you've described. Forgiveness in word only but not in action. Possibly something you feel in your heart, but still demands the other person to pay for their offence.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think this conversation is leading away from actual forgiveness towards a an idea of forgiveness that isn't acted on.
 

wondering

Supporter
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
13,413
Gender
Female
I said that because people keep assuming that Jesus's prayer asking God to forgive is Jesus actually forgiving. It is not.
OK, but you're speaking to me now.
What I said is that Jesus was asking Father to forgive his curcifiers to forgive them this ONE SIN....on His behalf. This does not mean they became saved or were forgiven for all their sins. I can't repeat this again. Apparently, I'm not explaining it correctly.

Yes the Jews assumed there sins were forgiven when they made a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. This would be done at a minimum of once a year. But in order to make that sacrifice they had to do two things.
Acknowledge they were a sinner and be repentant.
The whole Bible teaches that there has to be repentance for there to be forgiveness.
What does repent mean to you?
This might be the problem here.



So you have never read Luke 17 and have not encountere this verse that destroys the false belief that Christians must always forgive.
Luke 17 :3-4,If your brother sins against you, rebuke him and if he repents forgive him. Even if he sins against you 7 times in a day and comes back each time saying I repent you must forgive him.
When speaking about a specific verse, it's common practice to post the verse and not assume the person knows it. Not everyone reading along knows every verse in the bible...and neither do I.

Luke 17:3-4 .... as I said, and I will not repeat this....there seems to be, in that case, a contradiction in scripture. Let's see why:

Luke 17:3-4 says we must forgive when the other person repents.

Luke 6:37 tells us that we will be forgiven if we forgive.

Matthew 18:21-22, referring to the same occasion, just says that we are to forgive.

Mark 11:25-26 says that we are to forgive...no condition set.

Matthew 6:12 Jesus tells us we are to forgive as the Father forgives us.

Ephesians 4:32 tells us to forgive one another...again no condition set, as in all the other verses I've stated.

There are more, but how many are necessary.
If we do not forgive others, even if they do not ask for it, it somehow hinders the Father from forgiving us...Jesus made this very clear in the Lord' Prayer, and in His teaching generally.

Forgiving someone is also to our benefit. It frees us from anger and frustration and bitterness. Jesus said He came to show us a life more abundant...this is one of the ways.

As God is good to us,,,we should be kind in turn and forgive those that harm us. It simply makes us feel like better persons.

It can serve as a testimony for others.

We must surely forgive if the person asks for it...
but our Christianity teaches us that we are to forgive even if the person does NOT ask for it.

It is very clearly the right thing to do.

If you wish to continue this conversation,,,please reconcile the verses above....why the conflict in your opinion?
 

wondering

Supporter
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
13,413
Gender
Female
To Who Me and wondering.

So setting aside how often to forgive, and who to forgive. Let's talk about what forgiveness looks like. Because there's several things going on here that muddies up the basic action of forgiveness.
This is fine,,,but the other member is saying that we are to forgive persons ONLY when they ask for it by proclaiming their sorrow for an offense. This is not what the N.T. teaches us.

I'll start with one example of what forgiveness doesn't look like, but it was still claimed to be given. When I was a teen I dated a girl who said she forgave me on one thing or another. But whenever she got angry or wanted to put herself in a higher place (at my expense) she would bring up that thing that she said she had already forgiven. Thus showing no forgiveness was given.
She forgave you since the relationship continued. But, apparently, the hurt was not removed. This happens quite often but a person could still feel the pain even though they have forgiven the other. The pain does not automatically go away.
Man forgives...
God forgets.

I don't have a problem with the above. In anger, old feelings sometimes return.

Though we might not rub someone else's fault in their face if we say we forgive them, there's a second form of forgiveness to consider if it is really forgiveness or not. It's when consquences are still in play while forgiveness is claimed to have been given. Saying I forgive you for wrecking my car, but I'll never let you borrow it again. Is that really forgiveness? Or is forgiveness not there if you learned a lesson to not set yourself up for the same situation. That's a kind of gray area, but a lot of claimed forgiveness resides in this catogary. From the phrase forgive but never forget, to the other extreem of saying you forgive someone but they will still have to pay for the damages they owe, or go to prison for their crime, or any other consquence that fits the situation.
We cannot expect more from ourselves than is humanly possible.
Also, we all have different thresholds. Maybe a person worked hard for that car and it means a lot to deal with any cost involved.
Maybe the person is a millionaire and the damage is irrelevant to the owner, beyond the sorrow of seeing his car damaged.

I would forgive the person, but would not let them have the car again. In fact, I'm not too happy about anyone driving my car precisely because I know this could happen, and has happened.

As to paying for the damages...this would seem reasonable. Someone uses another person's possession....responsibility should go with the favor.

wondering made a point on a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. However I have to ask can you have forgiveness without reconciliation?
Of course!
I have forgiven some persons,,,but have cut off all contact with them. We don't have to be masochists.



Asking for God's help in forgiveness is usually a good thing expecially on the hard issues to forgive. And sometimes that's all we can do because we need God's help to truely forgive the other person. Because forgiveness is hard.
What do you mean by "truly forgive"?
What's so hard about it?

Lastly I want to cover what is known as real forgiveness. Everything else in the gray area of trying to forgive or learning from their actions and not repeating the mistake, all of those different types of situations can be scrunitized over whether they really count as forgiving, or whether they count as not forgiving. Honestly I put them in a gray area because that's where they are in my mind.
Jesus said to be gentle but wise. We don't need to be stupid to be Christian.

Nonetheless, here is what I know is forgiveness. It is the extreem of forgiveness in the bible. Psalms 103:12 (NLT)

12 He has removed our sins as far from us
as the east is from the west.

That is most definately what forgiveness looks like. And my question is is this what forgiveness should look like from us as well? Not just forgiveness from God. Or what does forgiveness look like to you?
Forgiveness means not hating the person...
It means forgiving them by your WILL,,,eventually it might go to the heart...
We should wait to forgive....wait to not feel the hurt anymore. This may never happen. We forgive by WILL and move forward: with or without them.
We should feel sorry for the person...they are clearly following the evil one and this should cause us grief.
We should pray for them...this helps the forgiveness go from the will to the heart.
Even if we do not feel a personal love for the person, we should love them as God has commanded us to love even our enemies...loving them as a human person that is in the dark.

Can't think of anything else right now.
 

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
Boaz, you said a lot in your last reply. But I'd like you to clarify the part tgat I'm waiting. When you say forgiving some one does not remove their offense against us, do you mean tgat they still need to pay for damages if they broke something, or need to go to jail if they broke a law against us? This doesn't sound like forgiveness to me. But instead I'm wondering about the parable of the forgiving king and the unforgiving debtor. In that parable a king forgave one man's large debt (the king on this case would be God), and later the man sought out some one else who owed a debt to him and demanded payment, even put the other person in jail till they could pay it. The king punished the man for what he did because he did not forgive the other man's debts.

I worry that this is the kind of forgiveness that you've described. Forgiveness in word only but not in action. Possibly something you feel in your heart, but still demands the other person to pay for their offence.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think this conversation is leading away from actual forgiveness towards a an idea of forgiveness that isn't acted on.
When say that forgiving someone does not remove their sin, I am saying only God can remove sin. The sin the person committed still exists. Forgiveness, in human terms means that whatever was done to us no longer has any control or power in us. We are not harboring it in our hearts or our thoughts, needing accountability or restitution or revenge. We remove ourselves from the situation leaving justice in God's hands. We are NOT saying the sin is ok or that it did not affect us.
In the analogy, parable you gave, as You said, the King was God. The King punished the man and made him pay the debt. The King exacted justice.
Actually, the whole message of that parable is exactly what I said in my last post. We should be merciful because we have been shown mercy. And the penalty for not doing this ought to shake you up a bit. The man who was shown mercy, and then Didn't show mercy to others, he was the one thrown in jail.
You say I speak of a forgiveness that is in our heart only but still demands payment by the offender. I said the opposite of that. I said, yes forgiveness is in our heart BECAUSE we have arrived at s place in our heart, and yes our mind, that says they owe US nothing.
Nevertheless, lawbreakers, those who break the laws of the land, should face legal consequences. That is the purpose of God placing authorities in our governments.
So if this is forgiveness that is not acted upon, please explain to me what acted upon forgiveness is.
 

wondering

Supporter
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
13,413
Gender
Female
There are two types of forgiveness spoken of in the Bible. God's forgiveness of sinners, which is an absolute wiping out of the offense from our "record". This is an act of mercy by Grace, based on our being in Christ through faith in Him, and therein having His righteousness imputed to us; and His having paid the blood price for us.
Then their is the forgiveness He instructs us to have for one another, and all people who sin against us. He says we are to be merciful because we have been shown mercy. Our forgiveness towards a person does not remove their sin or their offense against us. That is in God's hands alone. Only He can do that. Something to consider then is that if the offender is a Christian or ever becomes one, they ARE forgiven by God. He will certainly deal with them about the matter in whatever way He determines is best, but the sin is forgiven. Who are we to hold against someone what God does not.
Excellent point!

If they are NOT and never will be a Christian, (and we don't know this, can't know this, so we can't judge)then the sin won't be forgiven by God. The purpose of forgiving one another on the human level is because we are made in the image of God, as is everyone, we as Christians, having been shown mercy, are to imitate that mercy. We are not, as children of God, supposed to live our lives harboring hatred and forgiveness. The passage about if they repent is not an excuse or loop hole for refusing to forgive.
Forgiving, from the human perspective, is saying about the offender and the offense that they owe you nothing. Not apology, not restitution, not anything. Their debt is to God and He will see it's paid, in this life, in the next or by Jesus. And He will take care of and watch over you. You can let it go as they say. No longer to haunt you or make you angry or upset. It is very freeing.
And if it is hard or seems impossible, as it often does, I say from experience, that crying out in all sincerity to God that you don't want to forgive but desperately want to want to forgive, He just may, as He did for me, meet you right then and there with not only the desire to forgive, but also forgiving. It is like a glass of cold water after days in a hot dry dessert.
Holding forgiveness in our hearts hurts us. It does not hurt the one we don't forgive.
Great post!
I personally can also attest to the fact that forgiving releases us from many bad feelings that damage our emotional state and possibly even our physical state.

Holding unforgiveness in our heart,,,as far as I'm concerned, is a sin because it is not what God has taught us.
 

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
Excellent point!


Great post!
I personally can also attest to the fact that forgiving releases us from many bad feelings that damage our emotional state and possibly even our physical state.

Holding unforgiveness in our heart,,,as far as I'm concerned, is a sin because it is not what God has taught us.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
In my own situation I referred to it was a devastating divorce. I felt betrayed, abandoned, discarded, cruelly treated and shamed, because of the divorce. My prayer and my hope was for God to FIX it. He hates divorce, right? Instead I got deeply, cruelly hurt over and over again and in spite of my determination not to, I began to hate. It was all I could think about. And then I said that prayer. I want to want to. From that INSTANT forward I began to heal. It wasn't long before I was able to see that what I thought was shame was God saving me from being put to shame. It was Him making me put one foot in front of the other while He brought me safely out of a dark and perilous pit and set my boundaries in spacious places, because He LOVES me. AND I AM SO GRATEFUL!!!!
 

wondering

Supporter
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Messages
13,413
Gender
Female
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
In my own situation I referred to it was a devastating divorce. I felt betrayed, abandoned, discarded, cruelly treated and shamed, because of the divorce. My prayer and my hope was for God to FIX it. He hates divorce, right? Instead I got deeply, cruelly hurt over and over again and in spite of my determination not to, I began to hate. It was all I could think about. And then I said that prayer. I want to want to. From that INSTANT forward I began to heal. It wasn't long before I was able to see that what I thought was shame was God saving me from being put to shame. It was Him making me put one foot in front of the other while He brought me safely out of a dark and perilous pit and set my boundaries in spacious places, because He LOVES me. AND I AM SO GRATEFUL!!!!
I'd have to say that when we're so hurt,,,it may not be possible to forgive right away. I could take time. But God will always be at our side and help us when we ask.

So many times when we look back, that is when we see what God was doing and working in our lives.

I'm sorry for what you went through....but so grateful for God and His power to bring us through.
 

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
I'd have to say that when we're so hurt,,,it may not be possible to forgive right away. I could take time. But God will always be at our side and help us when we ask.

So many times when we look back, that is when we see what God was doing and working in our lives.

I'm sorry for what you went through....but so grateful for God and His power to bring us through.
Oh I agree sometimes it takes awhile, and no need to beat ourselves up when it does. I believe that God is faithful to lead us to the place where we can and He works in individuals AS individuals. In that particular situation, I knew, as having been a Christian 20 plus years then, that my forgiving was not negotiable, and I was miserable with my fury. When I went in prayer to say I forgive so and so I COULDN'T. It wad sort of a light bulb moment to realize what I was really desperate for was the WANTING to forgive. It did not exist inside me anywhere.:angry
And you know, I fully recognize the wrong that was done to me, that has not changed, and the despicable character of his person but I stopped feeling like he owed me something. He owes God a debt, and it will be paid, one way or the other, but he owes me no debt. This does not give me satisfaction nor am I delighted by it, but it does give me peace. And I truly hope that at some point he is saved, but I do not let it concern me.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2010
Messages
9,935
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
a cousin emailed me a book for -doing- forgiveness, as in...for me, I had to learn to pray for some transgressors -by name- and -do- forgiveness of them (in Christ...no way this would be happening, otherwise...), even though (in this case...) some nastiness was and is ongoing. and since then...

no booming voice from on high or lightning bolts or anything, but I do think THE LORD has blessed me. My parents seem to be -doing forgiveness- more, towards me. I'm finding it easier to take up my plow and push forward, -less- looking back, and when I do look back its...

not so much with anger, as it is with a sort of "huh? what...happened, exactly?" approach, like an analysis and dissection, with a sense of detachment, almost as if...

it feels more and more like the whole hazy, drugged up nightmare happened to...someone else, really. :)
 

Who Me

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
578
Gender
Male
There are two types of forgiveness spoken of in the Bible. God's forgiveness of sinners, which is an absolute wiping out of the offense from our "record". This is an act of mercy by Grace, based on our being in Christ through faith in Him, and therein having His righteousness imputed to us; and His having paid the blood price for us.
Then their is the forgiveness He instructs us to have for one another, and all people who sin against us. He says we are to be merciful because we have been shown mercy. Our forgiveness towards a person does not remove their sin or their offense against us. That is in God's hands alone. Only He can do that. Something to consider then is that if the offender is a Christian or ever becomes one, they ARE forgiven by God. He will certainly deal with them about the matter in whatever way He determines is best, but the sin is forgiven. Who are we to hold against someone what God does not.
If they are NOT and never will be a Christian, (and we don't know this, can't know this, so we can't judge)then the sin won't be forgiven by God. The purpose of forgiving one another on the human level is because we are made in the image of God, as is everyone, we as Christians, having been shown mercy, are to imitate that mercy. We are not, as children of God, supposed to live our lives harboring hatred and forgiveness. The passage about if they repent is not an excuse or loop hole for refusing to forgive.
Forgiving, from the human perspective, is saying about the offender and the offense that they owe you nothing. Not apology, not restitution, not anything. Their debt is to God and He will see it's paid, in this life, in the next or by Jesus. And He will take care of and watch over you. You can let it go as they say. No longer to haunt you or make you angry or upset. It is very freeing.
And if it is hard or seems impossible, as it often does, I say from experience, that crying out in all sincerity to God that you don't want to forgive but desperately want to want to forgive, He just may, as He did for me, meet you right then and there with not only the desire to forgive, but also forgiving. It is like a glass of cold water after days in a hot dry dessert.
Holding forgiveness in our hearts hurts us. It does not hurt the one we don't forgive.
Everything you have said is true.
Yet you ignored luke17;3 which tells us to reason with an offender and "if", "if" they repent to forgive them.

We have no option if the person who's run over your cat, or the person who has sat in your reserved seat, say I am sorry. Then we Must forgive them.
They can do this seventy seven times a day and say I am sorry and we Must forgive them.

Just as God only forgives sinners who repent so we are under No command to forgive offenders against us who do not repent.

Instead we do something just as difficult.
We pray intelligently for there well being.
We commend them, the situation and our emotions over to God for him to deal with.
 

Who Me

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
578
Gender
Male
OK, but you're speaking to me now.
What I said is that Jesus was asking Father to forgive his curcifiers to forgive them this ONE SIN....on His behalf. This does not mean they became saved or were forgiven for all their sins. I can't repeat this again. Apparently, I'm not explaining it correctly.


What does repent mean to you?
This might be the problem here.




When speaking about a specific verse, it's common practice to post the verse and not assume the person knows it. Not everyone reading along knows every verse in the bible...and neither do I.

Luke 17:3-4 .... as I said, and I will not repeat this....there seems to be, in that case, a contradiction in scripture. Let's see why:

Luke 17:3-4 says we must forgive when the other person repents.

Luke 6:37 tells us that we will be forgiven if we forgive.

Matthew 18:21-22, referring to the same occasion, just says that we are to forgive.

Mark 11:25-26 says that we are to forgive...no condition set.

Matthew 6:12 Jesus tells us we are to forgive as the Father forgives us.

Ephesians 4:32 tells us to forgive one another...again no condition set, as in all the other verses I've stated.

There are more, but how many are necessary.
If we do not forgive others, even if they do not ask for it, it somehow hinders the Father from forgiving us...Jesus made this very clear in the Lord' Prayer, and in His teaching generally.

Forgiving someone is also to our benefit. It frees us from anger and frustration and bitterness. Jesus said He came to show us a life more abundant...this is one of the ways.

As God is good to us,,,we should be kind in turn and forgive those that harm us. It simply makes us feel like better persons.

It can serve as a testimony for others.

We must surely forgive if the person asks for it...
but our Christianity teaches us that we are to forgive even if the person does NOT ask for it.

It is very clearly the right thing to do.

If you wish to continue this conversation,,,please reconcile the verses above....why the conflict in your opinion?
I'll take one verse, Matt to forgive as the Father forgives.
God only forgives those who repent.
Which is what the Bible teaches. Yes we must forgive, we have to be able, ready, wiling o forgive but if the conditions are not met we don't.

Repentance is an attitude or an expression of sorrow or regret for something one has said or done.
 

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
Everything you have said is true.
Yet you ignored luke17;3 which tells us to reason with an offender and "if", "if" they repent to forgive them.

We have no option if the person who's run over your cat, or the person who has sat in your reserved seat, say I am sorry. Then we Must forgive them.
They can do this seventy seven times a day and say I am sorry and we Must forgive them.

Just as God only forgives sinners who repent so we are under No command to forgive offenders against us who do not repent.

Instead we do something just as difficult.
We pray intelligently for there well being.
We commend them, the situation and our emotions over to God for him to deal with.
I don't disagree with that last part, that is what we do. But when you, personally, are doing this, what is in your heart and mind about the person you are praying for?
And maybe when you, personally, pray for the person who has wronged you, there is no animosity in your heart. I have no way of knowing about that. I am just concerned that there is a part of you that has found a way in scripture to justify an attitude that says you don't have to forgive until you have the satisfaction of collecting every last debt due (figure of speech) to you from this person. I can actually understand that because forgiving some things is very hard, even seemingly impossible, even WRONG. And also if I am mistaken about what my concern is, regarding you WM, forgive me. I am not presenting it as a FACT, only a concern.
As W said in another post, some times forgiveness takes time, and involves an internal struggle. God is patient and faithful to lead us where we need to go.
In forgiveness, we are not forgiving the act committed. We are forgiving the PERSON. It also does NOT mean a reconciliation with that person. Forgiveness from us is for OUR good, so that our hearts don't have a hard and bitter place. And it is because God tells us to be merciful just as He is merciful.
 

Not_Now.Soon

Supporter
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
2,425
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
When say that forgiving someone does not remove their sin, I am saying only God can remove sin. The sin the person committed still exists. Forgiveness, in human terms means that whatever was done to us no longer has any control or power in us. We are not harboring it in our hearts or our thoughts, needing accountability or restitution or revenge. We remove ourselves from the situation leaving justice in God's hands. We are NOT saying the sin is ok or that it did not affect us.
In the analogy, parable you gave, as You said, the King was God. The King punished the man and made him pay the debt. The King exacted justice.
Actually, the whole message of that parable is exactly what I said in my last post. We should be merciful because we have been shown mercy. And the penalty for not doing this ought to shake you up a bit. The man who was shown mercy, and then Didn't show mercy to others, he was the one thrown in jail.
You say I speak of a forgiveness that is in our heart only but still demands payment by the offender. I said the opposite of that. I said, yes forgiveness is in our heart BECAUSE we have arrived at s place in our heart, and yes our mind, that says they owe US nothing.
Nevertheless, lawbreakers, those who break the laws of the land, should face legal consequences. That is the purpose of God placing authorities in our governments.
So if this is forgiveness that is not acted upon, please explain to me what acted upon forgiveness is.
I'm sorry if I offended you Boaz. I was concerned that the reasoning was a kind of reasoning that talks about forgiveness without actually forgiving someone. Thank you for clarifying that that is not what you meant.
 

Who Me

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
578
Gender
Male
I don't disagree with that last part, that is what we do. But when you, personally, are doing this, what is in your heart and mind about the person you are praying for?
And maybe when you, personally, pray for the person who has wronged you, there is no animosity in your heart. I have no way of knowing about that. I am just concerned that there is a part of you that has found a way in scripture to justify an attitude that says you don't have to forgive until you have the satisfaction of collecting every last debt due (figure of speech) to you from this person. I can actually understand that because forgiving some things is very hard, even seemingly impossible, even WRONG. And also if I am mistaken about what my concern is, regarding you WM, forgive me. I am not presenting it as a FACT, only a concern.
As W said in another post, some times forgiveness takes time, and involves an internal struggle. God is patient and faithful to lead us where we need to go.
In forgiveness, we are not forgiving the act committed. We are forgiving the PERSON. It also does NOT mean a reconciliation with that person. Forgiveness from us is for OUR good, so that our hearts don't have a hard and bitter place. And it is because God tells us to be merciful just as He is merciful.
This is all theological. I have never been hurt badly by someone that hasn't been resolved by talking.

Yes like you I think there Luke be agreat deal of emotion that would have to be dealt with.
But if you read what I wrote you would have seen that I said that part of the process of handing the situation over to God included one's own emotions about the incident.

No one can harbour hatred while also actively praying for the benefit of that person.

But turn this around. Oh have a grieving parent of a child killed in a hit and run incident. They haven't had time to come to terms with their loss and they are being asked do they forgive the unknown driver of that car.
What sort of mental and spiritual harm is being done by that request?
 
Last edited:

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
This is all theological. I have never been hurt badly by someone that hasn't been resolved by talking.

Yes like you I think there Luke be agreat deal of emotion that would have to be dealt with.
But if you read what I wrote you would have seen that I said that part of the process of handing the situation over to God included one's own emotions about the incident.

No one can harbour hatred while also actively praying for the benefit of that person.

But turn this around. Oh have a grieving parent of a child killed in a hit and run incident. They haven't had time to come to terms with their loss and they are being asked do they forgive the unknown driver of that car.
What sort of mental and spiritual harm is being done by that request?
If I had a child killed by a drunk driver or murdered I truthfully cannot imagine being able to forgive in spite of all that I have been taught, and said about forgiveness. I trust God though, at least theoretically, to get me where I need to be.
Forgiveness, the how and the timing of it are n intensely personal thing, between God and the person. Anyone preaching to a person in the throes of such a grief as you mention, that they should forgive, is way out of line.
So in practice, I have been explaining the theory of and Bible teaching on forgiveness. ☺ I think you and I are in agreement.
 

Boaz

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
525
Gender
Female
I'm sorry if I offended you Boaz. I was concerned that the reasoning was a kind of reasoning that talks about forgiveness without actually forgiving someone. Thank you for clarifying that that is not what you meant.
I wasn't offended at all. And thank you for apologizing, since you thought you did offend me.
And I'm sorry that I gave you the impression that I was offended! :rollingpin :angry3:lol
 

Initial Site Debt

Total amount
$804.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Top