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Poke said:
Given that both chimps and mice are both nearly 99% similar to humans in their shared genes, I find it difficult to believe that unique genes will result in a DNA difference 60 times greater for mice than for chimps. The math doesn't add up and your source is not authoritative on that point. If chimps differ from humans in 4% of their DNA, 60x4 is 240%.
The 99% number for rats is also the "inflated" number. All this is saying is that if there are X differences in humans and chimps, then there are 60X in humans and rats.

You have to be careful multiplying percentages. For example, if a dress is 75% off and you have a coupon for 75% off, the dress is 0.75 * 0.75 of the original price, not 2 times 75% off.

I realize that most people are more indoctrinated than education. Even when people are right about something, it's usually just a coincidence. I also know that Evolutionists are highly intolerant of skeptics. Academic institutions provide numerous examples.
If you are worried about indoctrination, look at systems that try to get children to believe on danger of eternal torment. In opposition, evolution is something that children get taught when they have a chance to comprehend it. I wish that religion would wait as long before the indoctrination starts.
 
Hi Quath,

Quath wrote:

If you are worried about indoctrination, look at systems that try to get children to believe on danger of eternal torment. In opposition, evolution is something that children get taught when they have a chance to comprehend it. I wish that religion would wait as long before the indoctrination starts.

As much as it may shock you, I have to disagree with this, Quath, ( :-D )because indoctrination starts at very early ages with evolution, humanism, witchcraft, psychology, feminism, etc. For example, Mickey Mouse was a wizard, casting spells, and doing magic...in fact, many disney movies portray such things as good, or funny. Even Peanuts had a psycologist (Remember Lucy? :) ). Many books do the same thing, The Wizard of Oz...a good witch. Bernstein Bears...the dad is always outsmarted by mom, and children. Ice Age, Dinosaurs, familiarizing children with evolution very early on. Oh, lots of cartoons, and children's books, these days, and back in older days, familiarize our children with such things, and they are also right there on public television educating all the world. Museums we visit all have evolution. Our National parks...evolution. Our Zoos, etc. It's not just when they begin school that these religions are taught, but they are woven into our society...into many societies so that the indoctrination begins early. They are even found in the churches in mass quantities.

The interesting thing is that I was saved very young, but even knowing God from a young age did not keep me from having a lot to unlearn about evolution, humanism, and other such man-centered teachings that were in me without my even realizing it...forming my perspective of the world. The indoctrination begins very young, and continues steadily without ever letting up. The Christians could learn something from the world's example in spreading these religions actually.

I think sitcoms are another strong teacher in this area. I am reminded of Norman Lear, and the many shows that taught some good things, actually, but a great many other things that go against God. Anyway, these things are used to make us laugh at serious topics, and to familiarize us with specific teaching. And while breaking down some stereo-types, they were also guilty of reinforcing others. When I was younger, Archie Bunker, and George Jefferson were written as the bafoons because they were racists, capitalists, and conservative in their views. On MASH, Hawkeye, the liberal, was the wise one, while all conservative characters were written in belittled, and demeaning ways. Nowadays, it tends to be the Christians that end up being the ones who are portrayed in such a light...rather by character, or dialogue. I saw, last year, a stand up act of Whoopie Goldberg's. She hates Christians, creationists, and the like...it was very clear. I didn't even think it was funny, and I don't think she meant it to be, really. I was shocked at how openly intolerant she was of Christians, while preaching tolerance, and shaming them for their intolerance according to her. Someone drew that to my attention, and I did not believe how overt it actually was until I heard it myself.

So, not only are these false religions being indoctrinated, and from a very early age, the Christian religion is being bashed, villanized, and the preaching of intolerance towards believers grows. I wonder how many times Whoopie has been on PBS kids shows? I know that Dr Ruth was on one. Why are our children being familiarized with such people? The preparation for the little ones in this is the omission of God, and the idea that if someone disagrees with their morality, or lifestyle, then it is okay to hate these bad sorts. Eventually they will see their childhood icons on the stage, doing what Whoopie did, and think well Whoopie is nice...I remember when she was on with Elmo. So subtle, but so effective these cultural icons that we remember and trust.

The Lord bless you.
 
I think kids know when something is being portrayed as "pretend" and when people really believe something. So talking animals shows from Bugs Bunny to Babe tend to show a fantasy world and I think kids see it as that.

Where I think the difference is is in the "truths" that parents tell their kids. Lets look at the stuff where we may agree. For example, Wiccian parents may teach their kids about magic and the positive examples of it and all the proofs of it. Hindus may teach about Vishnu and tell their kids of the gods and reincarnation. Muslims kids are taught that Allah wants them to follow the Quran and its teachings.

I have seen pictures of white supremists kids with Nazi signs and saying racist things. Kids tend to take a parent's belief as proof and it takes deprogramming for them to overcome some early beliefs.

Where we disagree is if Christianity or evolution/science/atheism falls in these same categories. I can't speak for all atheists, but I encourage my kids to challengs all beliefs.
 
Quath said:
The 99% number for rats is also the "inflated" number.

But, it is an Apples to Apples comparison if the 98/99% DNA match for chimps.

All this is saying is that if there are X differences in humans and chimps, then there are 60X in humans and rats.

You have to be careful multiplying percentages. For example, if a dress is 75% off and you have a coupon for 75% off, the dress is 0.75 * 0.75 of the original price, not 2 times 75% off.

60x = 6000%. What if I have a coupon for 6000% off?

If you are worried about indoctrination, look at systems that try to get children to believe on danger of eternal torment.

It's the parents right, even obligation, to indoctrinate their children. It's tyranny for the government to do the same.
 
Poke said:
But, it is an Apples to Apples comparison if the 98/99% DNA match for chimps.
From what I can tell, it is like comparing two books. One comparison looks at what words are used and one comparison looks at what sentences are used. So in the first comparison, War and Peace may look a lot like Gone with the Wind but that is mostly showing that the authors wrote in English and may speak the same. Comparing the sentences will say whether the stories are alike.

60x = 6000%. What if I have a coupon for 6000% off?
Heh, you will get a good bargain. They will pay you the price of the item about 60 times for taking it. However, this will be different than 6000 coupons for 1% off.

It's the parents right, even obligation, to indoctrinate their children. It's tyranny for the government to do the same.
We limit it to an extent. A parent will go to jail if they pray for a cure for their child instead of go to a hospital. We will also let a parent refuse to immunize a child (even though the child may suffer for the parent's beliefs). We try to stop children from being taught racism and violence against the government.

A parent with wacky beliefs can get their children to believe those beliefs and it takes a long time to deprogram that child. We are probably just disagreeing about which beliefs are ok.
 
Quath said:
From what I can tell, it is like comparing two books. One comparison looks at what words are used and one comparison looks at what sentences are used.

No, it's more like comparing the similiarity of shared genes vs. comparing the similarity of all genes.

Heh, you will get a good bargain. They will pay you the price of the item about 60 times for taking it. However, this will be different than 6000 coupons for 1% off.

We're not talking about 6000 1% off coupons. What percent of DNA of mice matches the DNA of people?

We limit it to an extent. A parent will go to jail if they pray for a cure for their child instead of go to a hospital.

There's an incomparable difference between a parent teaching a kid things you think are wrong and a parent directly and severely endangering the health of a child.

We try to stop children from being taught racism and violence against the government.

It's the parent's constitutional right to teach racism to their children. If the government forces contrary beliefs onto the children, it's tyranny. Well-intentioned tyranny is still tyranny, and still has evil consequences.
 
Hey Quath,

Quath wrote:

I think kids know when something is being portrayed as "pretend" and when people really believe something. So talking animals shows from Bugs Bunny to Babe tend to show a fantasy world and I think kids see it as that.

I agree that children are very smart about such things, and they are also quick to pick up the moral, or meaning, attached to such things...and to identify them as good or bad...depending on how the story portrays them.

Quath wrote:
Where I think the difference is is in the "truths" that parents tell their kids. Lets look at the stuff where we may agree. For example, Wiccian parents may teach their kids about magic and the positive examples of it and all the proofs of it. Hindus may teach about Vishnu and tell their kids of the gods and reincarnation. Muslims kids are taught that Allah wants them to follow the Quran and its teachings.

Yes, and I believe that these parent have a right to teach their children these things. I also believe that no one should be allowed to interfere with that.

Quath wrote:
I have seen pictures of white supremists kids with Nazi signs and saying racist things. Kids tend to take a parent's belief as proof and it takes deprogramming for them to overcome some early beliefs.

You have met my neighbors apparently. :sad Yes, I have seen this, and go through great lengths to protect my children from it because it is abundant in our town.

Quath wrote:
Where we disagree is if Christianity or evolution/science/atheism falls in these same categories. I can't speak for all atheists, but I encourage my kids to challengs all beliefs.

I think they all do really, and many more things besides. God's design for families is that the Father, and the Mother, train the children...we even see this in nature a great deal.

I think that it is good that you encourage your children to challenge all beliefs...does that include evolution? My dad taught me the same thing, and he created a monster! :wink: My dad thought that I would be like him, an atheist, if I looked long enough. The thing is, if one really is seeking the Truth, it will be revealed, and it will stand up against any questioning. I am not ashamed in the least to stand up for it, and I don't need the entire world backing me up...just the Bible, and the Holy Spirit.

The last point...if we do not train our children, then someone, or something, else will. I think your point about the Nazi families, and I have seen this up close...this racist hatred instilled in children very young...is a good example of parents living out what they believe before their children, and it being a great influence.

You may teach your girls to challenge all, but they will only hold this truth deep if you do this yourself. In this sense, you train them much more than you realize...we all do. How can we not? It is a truth that you hold close, right? I have that same sort of absolute feeling about the Truth that I hold close as well...our living example of these truths we hold will alwasy be the most impacting on our children. The Lord bless you.
 
lovely said:
Yes, and I believe that these parent have a right to teach their children these things. I also believe that no one should be allowed to interfere with that.
I think society's way of dealing with this is to try to teach its message in school. For example, a white supremist kid may have to deal with a black teacher running a class.

However, I wonder if there should be limits. For example, would we allow for a parent to teach a child that it is a disgusting creature that isn't worthy to love? I think psychological torture can be worse than physical torture at times. We protect one but we are not so good at the other.

You have met my neighbors apparently. :sad Yes, I have seen this, and go through great lengths to protect my children from it because it is abundant in our town.
Yeah, this is a tough thing. I am against their beliefs but I also stand up for the right of these people to have them. And at the same time, I feel bad to see their kids adopt their beliefs.

I grew up in Georgia and I got to see a lot of racism of varying degrees.

I think that it is good that you encourage your children to challenge all beliefs...does that include evolution? My dad taught me the same thing, and he created a monster! :wink: My dad thought that I would be like him, an atheist, if I looked long enough. The thing is, if one really is seeking the Truth, it will be revealed, and it will stand up against any questioning. I am not ashamed in the least to stand up for it, and I don't need the entire world backing me up...just the Bible, and the Holy Spirit.
I waited until they heard of evolution in school before I really talked about it with them. As a scientist, I treat evolution as I would treat gravity or the laws of thermodynamics. So I treat it as real. If one of my kids decided not to believe in it, then that will have to be something she will have to deal with. I have to allow her to make the mistakes that do not cause her lasting harm in the hope she can learn from them.

My kids are very nervous about religion at school. They act Christian so they don't stand out, but they only tell their best friends that they really are not. I kind of feel bad for them that they have so much peer pressure about religion at their ages.

You may teach your girls to challenge all, but they will only hold this truth deep if you do this yourself. In this sense, you train them much more than you realize...we all do. How can we not? It is a truth that you hold close, right? I have that same sort of absolute feeling about the Truth that I hold close as well...our living example of these truths we hold will alwasy be the most impacting on our children. The Lord bless you.
Good point. :)

Take care.
 
Quath said:
"I think kids know when something is being portrayed as "pretend" and when people really believe something. So talking animals shows from Bugs Bunny to Babe tend to show a fantasy world and I think kids see it as that. Where I think the difference is is in the "truths" that parents tell their kids. Lets look at the stuff where we may agree. ... "

_____

I don't agree with even the kids thing! By 'beholding, you become changed'. It isn't just the young'ins & Bugs the Bunny, how about Easter eggs & the santa/claus stuff? Not only is that verse Truth, but man kills himself in other ways as well. Look at the obese peoples life span?

It seems that some folk think that the saturation of T.V. commercials is money just wasted, huh? You got to be kidding? And Beer & sports, + the lottery foolishness are kid games? With prom night being one of the most feared one for drunk drivers who learn the good behavior from mom & dad, huh? NO, we need to shun every appearance of evil. Christians that is.

---John

PS: Oh' yeah, evolution? you teach it, and do it, and it becomes like the lynch mob, most all will then believe it & do it, and not even know why! :robot:
 

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