Will...

[Guest]

With the recent posts concerning "Free Will/No Free Will" and "Losing one's Salvation" - I would like to ask a different form of question. I do not want to discuss free will/no free will in the typical sense of predestination, etc. or if one can lose their salvation.

Rather, I would like to ask "What is the condition of humanities will as it relates to those who are nonbelievers and believers? "

For example, I believe that the non-christian has a will that is in bondage to sin. Both the flesh and the will are slaves to sin.

For the believer, I believe our will has been set free from the chains of sin - however, our flesh has not. Therefore, there is a 'war' going on as we seek to follow our "will" which has been set free by the Holy Spirit through the death of Christ at Calvary.

However, is our will - ever totally "free"?

For example, as much as I "will" it - I will never be able to fly. My "will" is faced with physical limitations. As much as I "will" it - I cannot be a doctor. Currently I do not have the knowledge, therefore my will as mental limitations. T

 

[th1bill]

I do so agree with your take on the condition of our will and I do not believe that it will ever know completed freedom until we reach heaven. I also hope this is not derailed by useless bickering over non-essential doctrin.

 

[unred typo]

I think what you have written illustrates a common mistake. Thanks for starting this topic. It might clear up some misconceptions.

Take your example. You may become a doctor but not unless first you have the will to do what it takes to become one. We seem to confuse willingness with ability. When I think of man’s free will, I think about man’s willingness to set his heart to do something, not his ability to accomplish what he chooses to do.

When Jesus said of Peter, James and John that the spirit indeed was willing but the flesh was weak, he was expressing the difference between the two. The flesh, your human body, has no desire or strength to do beyond it’s limitations for any reason that isn’t self-seeking, self-serving or self-gratifying without your will over-riding it‘s refusal and actually pushing it beyond it‘s comfort zone and endurance limits. Paul said he knew that in his flesh dwells no good thing. He was speaking of the human body that he resided in that weighed him down that he had to constantly battle with to do what was in service to others and to God and to not fulfill it‘s sinful cravings and desires.

 

[Drew]

The flesh, your human body, has no desire or strength to do beyond it’s limitations for any reason that isn’t self-seeking, self-serving or self-gratifying without your will over-riding it‘s refusal and actually pushing it beyond it‘s comfort zone and endurance limits.

Do any of you believe that a non-Christian can perform a genuinely "good" act? I think that the answer is "yes" - the data of real-life experience shows that non-Christians do, indeed, sometimes do things out of noble and good intentions. Their actions are not always "self-serving".

Now people can always claim that non-Christian Fred donated a kidney in order to glorify himself, not out of a genuine desire to do a good thing for others. However, I think the evidence of life is clear - non-believers do indeed perform genuinely good deeds. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, I have never found a convincing Biblical argument that unredeemed men do nothing out of noble motives.

I believe in the existence of free will for all men, although I agree that a Christian guided by the Spirit is "much more free" to do good deeds than a non-believer. But, Christians can fall away (by free will choice) and non-Christians do indeed sometimes do truly selfless acts.

 

[unred typo]

The flesh, your human body, has no desire or strength to do beyond it’s limitations for any reason that isn’t self-seeking, self-serving or self-gratifying without your will over-riding it‘s refusal and actually pushing it beyond it‘s comfort zone and endurance limits.

Do any of you believe that a non-Christian can perform a genuinely "good" act? I think that the answer is "yes" - the data of real-life experience shows that non-Christians do, indeed, sometimes do things out of noble and good intentions. Their actions are not always "self-serving".

Now people can always claim that non-Christian Fred donated a kidney in order to glorify himself, not out of a genuine desire to do a good thing for others. However, I think the evidence of life is clear - non-believers do indeed perform genuinely good deeds. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, I have never found a convincing Biblical argument that unredeemed men do nothing out of noble motives.

I believe in the existence of free will for all men, although I agree that a Christian guided by the Spirit is "much more free" to do good deeds than a non-believer. But, Christians can fall away (by free will choice) and non-Christians do indeed sometimes do truly selfless acts.

Right, Drew. I think the problem is our confusion between the ‘flesh’ and the ‘person’ within the flesh. The ‘flesh’ is our human body with it’s instinctive self preservation mechanism coupled with our self serving ego. The person within the flesh is who we really are, who must choose to either obey the self-serving desires of the flesh, ( eat, drink and be merry ) or the good leading of the Spirit, which means denying ungodly lusts and doing things for others regardless of cost to our own comfort and self interests.

I agree we are capable of doing genuine good deeds out of love and concern for others, regardless of race, creed or color.
At this point someone usually jumps in with the ever present, constantly misused, out of context verse saying all our righteousness is filthy rags. Go ahead, make my day... :
( My personal favorite misuse of scripture: “The word of God is not bound.†God’s word is quick and powerful (alive and well) and not limited to a single volume of bound pages. There’s a misquote I can live with. ) :-D

 

[Guest]

Romas 8:5 "5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh"

Romans 8:6 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, "

Romans 8:7-8: "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

How about we start with these? I realize that it isn't "filthy rags" - but I think it will do

 

[unred typo]

aLoneVoice on Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:09 pm
Romas 8:5 "5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh"

Romans 8:6 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, "

Romans 8:7-8: "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

How about we start with these? I realize that it isn't "filthy rags" - but I think it will do

Yup... it will do.

A couple of things. You’re starting with the assumption that all of mankind is unable to set their mind on anything but the flesh and forcing the text into that mold. While there are people like that, (we call them ‘hedonists,’ ) not all people fit into that category. People who love one another are not hedonistic.

The verses you quoted are talking about those people who are. When you set your mind on the flesh, I don’t care who you are, whether you’re the worst sinner or the most dedicated pastor in the world, you cannot please God, you are being hostile to the way of Christ, you’re walking in death and you are not being subjected to the law of Christ.

When you turn from that sinful attitude, God will abundantly pardon. If you are a heathen who stops what you are doing, listens to the Spirit and repents, God is pleased with you and helps you to stay focused on his ways.