JW Book: “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”

[TrevorL]

Greetings again KV-44-v1,

Just because Jesus was in human body, does NOT mean thats all He was.

I decided to give a brief answer to most of your posts. Jesus was unique because he was and is also the Son of God.

Did you know that islam also belittles Jesus by attacking His Divinity?????

I do not endorse Islam and this is not relevant to my understanding of Jesus or to this thread.

So? Obviously, the Biblical translators knew much more and were more willing to be influenced by God rather than Mohammed.

Again Islam introduced. Do you believe that the Bible translators were inspired and which Bible version do you endorse as inspired?

Do you REALLY think a mere mortal with NO Divinity saved us??

Jesus is not a mere mortal. He was and is the Son of God, the Saviour, the vehicle or vessel through whom God would save.

Did you notice its always the CULTS that belittle Jesus????

You introduced "Islam" and now "CULTS".

Did Jesus sin in your worldview?? YES or NO?

Jesus never sinned, but he partook of weak, mortal human nature.

Luke is talking about the origin of His body.

Luke and Matthew are talking about the origin of Jesus, not an empty shell of a body.

Who is the "us" in Genesis?? ("let US make man in OUR image")?

I believe that Genesis 1:26-27 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 also confirms this.

Tell me, how does the kingdom of a measly physical being have no end?? That is silly nonsense. Incongruent with the Bible!
the only way "His Kingdom has no end" is if the Kingdom is GOD'S KINGDOM.

Yes, it is God's Kingdom and Jesus has been raised from the dead and given immortality.

When was Jesus begotten?
[[What do you mean by begotten?? When He was created? No, He always existed.
Or - when He was physically born? We don't really know. Should we? If yes, why? Knowing WHEN Jesus came into the world doesn't seem to have much bearing on the Faith.]]
What does it (it=begotten) represent?? If going by the 2 things in brackets above, it is literal, not a "represent".
What does the "when" represent?? Say Jesus was born in between 1 AD and 4 BC. Why would Him being born in that time frame (for example) represent anything??

This is perhaps a good example of most Trinitarian's view of "only begotten". In other words, too difficult.

Some posters apparently seem to think mingling Christianity with islam or the cults (J.W.'s are one!) is a great idea. if not, why are they pushing the same lie about Jesus that islam & them are pushing??

Islam and the cults again.

Nobody here is claiming that there are 2 God the Father 's.
There are 3 Persons (but 1 God) in the Trinity, not 4 Persons.

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Highest.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe that Genesis 1:26-27 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 also confirms this.

Genesis says man is made in the image and likeness of God, not angels. Psalm 8:5 doesn't concern the image and likeness of God, it says man was made LOWER than the angels. Therefore, we must deploy elementary logic to solve the riddle.

God's image and likeness is ABOVE angels, therefore the only way man is LOWER than the angels is his physical nature----compared to the spiritual of angels.

Therefore, your interpretation is incorrect, God is NOT addressing the angels when He says "Let US create man in OUR image."

Confirming this, never does scripture say man is created in the image of angels even partly.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Some posters apparently seem to think mingling Christianity with islam or the cults (J.W.'s are one!) is a great idea. if not, why are they pushing the same lie about Jesus that islam & them are pushing??

I don't think he is doing that. He may be a "Unitarian". While some elements are similar, he doesn't agree with JWs or Islam. It would be a good feature if posters were identified by denomination, so we wouldn't get the wrong idea about a poster. I'm basically a Free will Reformed Baptist, with certain differences when it comes to Eschatology and the Filioque.

I changed my PROFILE so the denomination I prefer over others appears instead of "Mr".

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Genesis says man is made in the image and likeness of God, not angels. Psalm 8:5 doesn't concern the image and likeness of God, it says man was made LOWER than the angels.

The most logical conclusion from Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:5 is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in God and the Angels image and likeness.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[oldprophet]

Greetings "for_his_glory",

I do not have such a strong disapproval of the JWs by comparison to most Protestant Churches as I am most probably closer to some of their teachings than what is taught in the Churches. In general terms I share with the JWs that man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul, that there will be a 1000 year Kingdom of God, and that there is only One God, the Father. But even here on these three subjects, when we look closer I differ in many of the details, and some of this I have highlighted in my earlier posts.

Part of my respect for the JWs is based upon my contact with a Senior JW who for a short period was my supervisor, and on one occasion he helped me when I got into serious difficulty at work. We had a number of brief discussions over the years, but as usual we made no progress. I considered him very sincere in his beliefs and way of life. When he was about to retire he told me that he had partly derided one of my mates at work, who was in my fellowship. My mate had discussed maybe a few years earlier, his belief that Russia is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 as the King from the North. To indicate how long ago this was, it was at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, and the JW considered that his view of Ezekiel 38 was now not very likely to happen. Evidently my mate was a bit disturbed by the encounter. Possibly I am more patient, and time and circumstances have now again opened the possibility that Russia could fulfill the role depicted in Ezekiel 38. My response to the JW at the time was that I asked as to whom he thought would be this King from the North, and the King of the North mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45, and I received no answer, as this does not fit in with the JW assessment of the end times. This JW, if he is still alive would now be over 90 years old.

This was my second last contact with him, and your quotation from the NWT reminded me of the last time that I spoke to him.

After a very brief conversation at a shopping centre, with his Pentecostal wife urging him to continue with the shopping, my JW friend mentioned the "faithful and discreet slave". At the time I did not have a clue as to what he was talking about, and there was no opportunity for a clarification due to his wife's insistence. It was only some years later that I understood that this was a reference to the unique translation by the JWs of Matthew 24:45, and only later still realised how they understand this to apply almost exclusively to the GB. I was used to the KJV and the context:

Matthew 24:42–51 (KJV): 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I apply this passage to the individual "servants" within every one of the meetings in my fellowship. Each one of our meetings is autonomous, and we do not have a central authority. The individual members in each community from an early age are encouraged to do their private study so that they can eventually help the other members in their growth and understanding of God's Word.

Kind regards
Trevor

The Jehovah's Witnesses aka The Watchtower and Tracht Society is a non Christian cult, I don't hate them but they are a group that leads people to Hell

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

The most logical conclusion from Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:5 is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in God and the Angels image and likeness.

Kind regards
Trevor

Unsound, comparing "apples and oranges".
Just as apples are not oranges, so also "nature" is not "image and likeness"

"Lower than the angels" is a reference to nature, physical being = apples; Angels are "Elohim" spirit therefore above physical man whose nature is made of dust.

Image and likeness of Yahweh God, who is Spirit" rules out this is a reference to man's physical nature for that would be a "contradiction" [and scripture never contradicts itself, it is truth]. God's "nature" is not "lower than the angels".

Therefore, "image and likeness" refer to the whole dignity of man, he is an "icon" of God---in resemblence to God, man has dominion over all the living on earth: = oranges:


26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." (Gen. 1:26-28 NKJ)

Angels do not have dominion over anything, therefore they are irrelevant, immaterial to the image and likeness of God in man.

Therefore, when God communes with "Us; Our" about His image and likeness, He must be communing with Himself, Father Son and Holy Spirit. One God, Three Persons subsisting in the One God. A "Compound Unity" (echod).

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Jehovah's Witnesses aka The Watchtower and Tracht Society is a non Christian cult, I don't hate them but they are a group that leads people to Hell

That is inaccurate. They are "Christian" according to the "Handbook of Denominations in the United States" by Mead, Hill and Atwood.

The definition of "cult" depends on the user, most unbelievers would label all of us as belonging to a cult.

I agree no one is saved by crying out to the Father. Crying out to "Jehovah" without honoring His only begotten Son Jesus hits a dense thick cloud preventing the prayer from entering heaven. Everyone must go to Jesus for salvation:

10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
11 "This is the`stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12 NKJ)


I learned that the "hard way" when I kept calling out to Jehovah "to show me His people", and He did not. Rather, He showed me His Son through a radio Baptist preacher:

My testimony:

Lots of time on ships to read. On one of them I happened upon the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ book “Evolution or Creation”. Convinced by its creationist arguments I decided to read their New World Translation of the Bible. The Word of God had a unique power over me, I was compelled to read it cover to cover and then again. I couldn’t put it down.

The time came when I was determined to become a JW. I was convinced they alone were God’s people, and everyone else belonged to “Babylon the Great.” I hastened to the San Pedro Kingdom Hall to be baptized. But they insisted I answer a question first, to see if I really understood JW beliefs.

“What do you believe about baptism”-the Elder asked. Immediately I paraphrased Romans 6:3-4 “We are buried with Christ, and we are raised with Christ!” That is the wrong answer, unless JWs believe you are one of the “144,000” anointed. They clearly did not believe I was because they insisted I complete discipleship indoctrination.

While at the public library researching I came upon “Apostles of Denial,” by Edmond C. Gruss. I was determined to prove his arguments against JW belief wrong. None of his arguments for the Deity of Christ were making sense to me. I blazed my way through his book, until I got where he argued the Holy Spirit must be a “Person” and not an impersonal force of God as JWs believe. He uses personal pronouns “I” “Me” and even commands the disciples to act for “Me”. When reading Acts 13:2 is was as if JW doctrines were like a house of cards, the collapse was truly great. I “knew” as the Holy Spirit says “I”, Me”, He is a “Person”:

As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have them.-Acts 13:2 New World Translation

I was devastated. I felt totally alone, “if the Jehovah’s Witnesses are not God’s people, who are?” [It didn’t occur to me the E. C. Gruss was!!!] I cried out in prayer to Jehovah, “please help me, I beg you! I can’t see who your people are!”. I was absolutely devastated, went about as if in a stupor. But Jehovah would not answer me.

One day a Baptist Radio minister was urging listeners to call in and confess “Jesus Christ is LORD” and that God “raised Him from the dead” publicly (Mat. 10:32) and you will be saved. “God does not lie,” and He promised:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom. 10:9 KJV)

I rushed to the public phone in the lobby of the Amory Hotel. A few of my fellow sailors sat there socializing, they would overhear every word I said on the phone!” Then a thought appeared: “You don’t want to embarrass yourself in front of them! You’ll be a laughingstock!” I drove the thought away thinking: “I want Jesus to be my LORD more than life itself!”
The Radio minister asked “do you confess Jesus Christ is LORD!” “Yes, I confess Jesus Christ is LORD!” “Do you believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead?” “Yes, I believe God raised Him from the dead!”
“Then you are saved, for God cannot lie and in Romans 10: 9-11 He says:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom. 10:9-11 KJV)

I thanked him profusely and went to my room, stunned. As I was pondering these things I was “baptized in the Holy Spirit!”

God the Holy Spirit fell upon me like a warm wind, filling my soul regenerating it. The washing of regeneration (Tit. 3:5) renewed my spirit (Rom. 8:16), not my flesh body or brain (Rom. 7:18). My soul, the “ghost operating the machine” became a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). God breathed into my soul the “breath of lives” and the filling gave rise to a “new creature” (Gen. 2:7; 2 Cor. 5:17), risen from the dead in Christ Jesus my LORD (Rom. 6:4). Over forty years ago this happened, and never has the Spirit left or forsaken me. God is more real to me than anyone or anything existing.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matt. 10:32-39 KJV)

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[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

"Lower than the angels" is a reference to nature, physical being = apples; Angels are "Elohim" spirit therefore above physical man whose nature is made of dust.

I suggest that "image and likeness" has a wider range of meaning, speaking also of moral capacity. The Angels were also immortal while man was created with the potential to go either way.

Image and likeness of Yahweh God, who is Spirit" rules out this is a reference to man's physical nature for that would be a "contradiction" [and scripture never contradicts itself, it is truth]. God's "nature" is not "lower than the angels".

Man was not created with immortal spirit nature. This will occur after the resurrection.

God's "nature" is not "lower than the angels".

This does not make any sense. If man is lesser than the Angels, then he is also much lower than God.

Angels do not have dominion over anything

Angels were given control over the creation, and appear often in the narrative.

Therefore, when God communes with "Us; Our" about His image and likeness, He must be communing with Himself, Father Son and Holy Spirit. One God, Three Persons subsisting in the One God.

No such three Beings in One. The only other beings in the Garden were the Angels.

A "Compound Unity" (echod).

Echad is not a compound unity, it is the number one.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

The most logical conclusion from Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:5 is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in God and the Angels image and likeness.

The most logical conclusion is that there is a diversity within the unity of the one God.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.(ESV)

Humans are created in the image of God and no other. Angels are never said to be created in the image of God nor are humans ever said to be created in the image of angels. That is to go beyond the text of Scripture and read that idea into the text.

No such three Beings in One.

No, there isn’t. It isn’t three beings in one being or three persons in one person or three gods in one God; those are contradictions. The wording of the Trinity is precise—there is one being that is God who consists of three distinct, divine “persons,” each truly and fully God.

Echad is not a compound unity, it is the number one.

Correct, but 'echad can refer to a compound unity, such as in Gen 2:24, "and they shall become one flesh" and Gen 11:6, "they are one people." And that is very important since yachid, which does refer only to an absolute unity, is never used of God. That actually does leave the door open for God to be a compound unity.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This does not make any sense. If man is lesser than the Angels, then he is also much lower than God.

I believe that Genesis 1:26-27 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 also confirms this.-TrevorL

The conclusion of your statement requires the premise "image and likeness" and "nature" are the same. Therefore, it is YOU who claim God's nature is lower than the angels.

Or, you want to disavow your statement that "Psalm 8:5" [about nature] "confirms" anything about Gen. 1:26-27.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I suggest that "image and likeness" has a wider range of meaning, speaking also of moral capacity. The Angels were also immortal while man was created with the potential to go either way.

Man was not created with immortal spirit nature. This will occur after the resurrection.

This does not make any sense. If man is lesser than the Angels, then he is also much lower than God.

Angels were given control over the creation, and appear often in the narrative.

No such three Beings in One. The only other beings in the Garden were the Angels.

Echad is not a compound unity, it is the number one.

Kind regards
Trevor

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.(Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

There is a reason "US" "Our" appears in this text, it is essential to man's "image and likeness", the "image of God". As Angels are not "co-creators" of man, God created man by Himself (Gen. 2:7, 22; Isa. 40:13; 44:24) there is no reference to angels in any fashion in this text. Not to "immortality", not to "potential to go either way."

That rules out angels, they have nothing to do with the appearance of "Us" "Our".

Historically, only two other explanations remain. 1)Early Christians understood this as a revelation of the Holy Trinity; 2) Most modern scholarship believe its "pluralis majestatis" or "plural of majesty" increasing the total majesty of God above what is connoted by singular.

The fatal flaw of explanation #2 is man is the subject, not God. God is not talking about Himself, He is talking about "Man" who was made in "His own image; in the image of God".

God is looking at man and sees His own image. Therefore, the context defines what God is seeing---the whole dignity of man who has been put over all life on planet earth, like God's representative. Man "has God-like dominion".

But that can't exhaust God's meaning, because then only the singular "I" "My" would appear. The appearance of the plural "Us" "Our" in this image must refer to something about man that "reflects" God. What could that be?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

The mirror image and likeness of God is "reversed": The One infinite God in Three Divine Persons looks at Finite Man as if a mirror image is given dominion, is His representative on earth:

The One Finite Man is visible in three substances (spirit soul and body), as a "reflex mirror image" of the Infinite invisible God who is Three Divine Persons in One Divine substance.

Its a matter of perspective, God is looking at man and declaring how His image and likeness appears to Him.

Therefore, early Christians were correct, this is a revelation of the Triune nature of God.

The premise of a reverse mirror image is required because God emphatically declares man was created in the image and likeness of God. Something essential and unique to man, is a "mirror image" of "Us" "Our" image and likeness unique to God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

The most logical conclusion is that there is a diversity within the unity of the one God.

Deuteronomy 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
I consider that in this context it is speaking of the fact that there is only One God, in comparison to the many gods of the Egyptians and Canaanites. As such this One God, Yahweh, God the Father needs to be the centre of our worship and dedication.

Humans are created in the image of God and no other. Angels are never said to be created in the image of God nor are humans ever said to be created in the image of angels. That is to go beyond the text of Scripture and read that idea into the text.

The very fact that when Angels appeared to the faithful they were at first mistaken as men is some indication. To inject the Trinity into Genesis 1:26 is to go beyond what the Scriptures state.

No, there isn’t. It isn’t three beings in one being or three persons in one person or three gods in one God; those are contradictions. The wording of the Trinity is precise—there is one being that is God who consists of three distinct, divine “persons,” each truly and fully God.

Fancy language but we are human beings, and Jesus was and is a human being, not a third of a Being.

Correct, but 'echad can refer to a compound unity, such as in Gen 2:24, "and they shall become one flesh" and Gen 11:6, "they are one people." And that is very important since yachid, which does refer only to an absolute unity, is never used of God. That actually does leave the door open for God to be a compound unity.

As I stated, I consider Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking about the One Person, the One Being, Yahweh. I doubt that Moses or the Children of Israel believed in Three in One. Nor did the scribe who discussed Deuteronomy 6:4.

Mark 12:28–33 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

If you want to develop the theme of a compound unity in the One God, you need to consider Jesus as the Son of God, and the faithful included in Jesus.
John 10:29–38 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 17:11–23 (KJV): 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

The conclusion of your statement requires the premise "image and likeness" and "nature" are the same. Therefore, it is YOU who claim God's nature is lower than the angels.

You have created your own unique marine knot, and I will let you untangle it.

Or, you want to disavow your statement that "Psalm 8:5" [about nature] "confirms" anything about Gen. 1:26-27.

God's purpose in the creation of man in Genesis 1:26-27 was to fill this earth with creatures who would reflect God's Glory:
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Isaiah 11:9 (KJV): They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Where Adam and the nation of Israel failed in this respect, Jesus has been and will be successful, both in himself and the future completion of the New Creation as depicted in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Not to "immortality", not to "potential to go either way."

Adam when created was neither mortal (subject to death) or immortal. If he had proved faithful over a period of time he could have been given access to the Tree of Life and eaten and thus live for ever. But because of his sin, he was cast out of the Garden so that he could not immediately gain access to the Tree of Life.

The theme of the "likeness of God" runs throughout the OT and NT:

Psalm 17:15 (KJV): As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

1 John 3:1–3 (KJV): 1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Deuteronomy 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
I consider that in this context it is speaking of the fact that there is only One God, in comparison to the many gods of the Egyptians and Canaanites. As such this One God, Yahweh, God the Father needs to be the centre of our worship and dedication.

Yes, it is a statement of monotheism only. It says nothing of whether God is unitarian or triune. As such, it has no bearing on the point I made, which was "The most logical conclusion is that there is a diversity within the unity of the one God," in reference to Gen 1:26-27.

The very fact that when Angels appeared to the faithful they were at first mistaken as men is some indication.

Not really. There are two errors in reasoning here. First, just because angels can appear as humans it doesn't follow that that is the mode of their existence. Second, and more importantly, it doesn't follow that being made in the image of God means that God also has a form the same as humans. There are many ways in which we can be made in the image of God without anything to do with the form and mode of existence.

To inject the Trinity into Genesis 1:26 is to go beyond what the Scriptures state.

Sure, to argue that it proves God is triune would be false, but it does show that there is a multiplicity, a diversity within God. Angels have no bearing on the issue since it is only "in the image of God" that humans are made.

Fancy language but we are human beings, and Jesus was and is a human being, not a third of a Being.

"Fancy language" in which it matters that we are accurate. The one Being that is God exists as three distinct, divine, coequal, consubstantial Persons. Arguing that Jesus was "not a third of a Being" is a straw man.

As I stated, I consider Deuteronomy 6:4 is speaking about the One Person, the One Being, Yahweh.

Yet, you are fallaciously begging the question by beginning with the premise that God is one person. That verse no more supports a unitarian God than a triune God. It is only about monotheism, about Yahweh being the one and only true God, nothing more. Again, 'echad leaves the door open for God to be triune.

I doubt that Moses or the Children of Israel believed in Three in One. Nor did the scribe who discussed Deuteronomy 6:4.

And that matters how? Even in the NT the Jewish disciples believed the Messiah was going to deliver a military victory to the Jews over their enemies. Even after Jesus saying what was going to happen, the disciples didn't understand his mission. The Bible uses progressive revelation and the first bit for the Israelites was to understand that there was only one God.

Mark 12:28–33 (KJV): 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Again, this is about monotheism only; it says nothing about whether God is one person or three or twenty.

If you want to develop the theme of a compound unity in the One God, you need to consider Jesus as the Son of God,

Please, provide just one example where a son was or is not of the same nature as his father. I keep asking this and have yet to receive an answer.

and the faithful included in Jesus.
John 10:29–38 (KJV): 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 17:11–23 (KJV): 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

What do these verses show? How do they prove that God is ontologically not three? There is far more context that needs to be taken into consideration.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

You have created your own unique marine knot, and I will let you untangle it.

God's purpose in the creation of man in Genesis 1:26-27 was to fill this earth with creatures who would reflect God's Glory:
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Isaiah 11:9 (KJV): They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14 (KJV): For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Where Adam and the nation of Israel failed in this respect, Jesus has been and will be successful, both in himself and the future completion of the New Creation as depicted in Psalm 8.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Man being made a little lower than the angels has no relevancy to the image of God in man. If it did (as you imply), then God's image and likeness are "lower than the angels."

That is your reasoning. I asked you to defend it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Man being made a little lower than the angels has no relevancy to the image of God in man. If it did (as you imply), then God's image and likeness are "lower than the angels."
That is your reasoning. I asked you to defend it.

I cannot plumb the depth of your shallow logic. The Angels are lesser creatures than the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. When Adam was created and Jesus was conceived/begotten by God the Father in Mary they were made a little lower than the Angels.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Free,

As such, it has no bearing on the point I made, which was "The most logical conclusion is that there is a diversity within the unity of the one God," in reference to Gen 1:26-27.

What is another factor is that the word "Angels" in Psalm 8:5 is translated from the word "Elohim" showing that the diversity is sometimes God and the Angels and this is very relevant to Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:26-27.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

just because angels can appear as humans it doesn't follow that that is the mode of their existence

I suggest that the Angels appear as they are in person. This thread is concerning the JWs, and in their fantasy they have Jesus assuming a human body to appear on a number of occasions and then vaporising back into an invisible spirit being. I believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus and that Angels are substantial physical beings, not ghosts.

Please, provide just one example where a son was or is not of the same nature as his father. I keep asking this and have yet to receive an answer.

Again your favourite statement/question and you refuse to accept the obvious. Jesus is the human Son of God because God the Father is the father of Jesus in the conception/begettal process and Mary is his mother. You cannot create a God and you cannot conceive/beget a God. Your analogy is very flawed, but you will keep on asking.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I cannot plumb the depth of your shallow logic. The Angels are lesser creatures than the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. When Adam was created and Jesus was conceived/begotten by God the Father in Mary they were made a little lower than the Angels.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

Logic isn't shallow, it is either sound or unsound.

To ignore the usage of the Plural "Us" "Our" which imply a plurality of Persons, you put Genesis 1:26-27 in "lower than the angels" Psalm 8:3-6 box.

So I ask: "what relevancy does 'made lower to the angels' have with the Plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26-27"?

Is God's image and likeness lower than the angels?

Of course NOT, therefore the diversion to Psalm 8:3-6 is UNSOUND. That man is made "lower than the angels" is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent to the "image and likeness of God in Man" and why God spoke of Himself in the plural in Genesis 1:26-27.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

The most logical conclusion from Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:5 is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in God and the Angels image and likeness.

Kind regards
Trevor

You replied to Post #98 with a "Sad" icon. Likely you forgot what began the discussion about "logic":

The most logical conclusion from Genesis 1:26-27 and Psalm 8:5 is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father invited the Angels to participate in the creation of man in God and the Angels image and likeness.

On the contrary, the "most logical" reason for the plural pronouns "Us" "Our" in Genesis 1:26 is "Yahweh is One (0259 אֶחָד 'echad Deut. 6:4), a "compound unity". None of the other suggested reasons fit the context:

1)God is not speaking to other gods
2)"in our image" rules out God is speaking to the angels
3)God is not speaking to the earth which cannot participate in a conversation
4)The theory of a Plural of Majesty is unattested with verbs in Biblical Hebrew.
5)Not a plural of deliberation.


26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Compare:

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us (Gen. 3:22 NKJ)

"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Gen. 11:7 NKJ)

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" (Isa. 6:8 NKJ)

"Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. (Isa. 41:22 NKJ)

But the Compound Unity of Persons in One God is clearly present in the OT and fully revealed in the NT. For example, when three "men" appear to Abraham, its said Yahweh Appeared:
1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, (Gen. 18:1-2 NKJ)

Context confirms the "compound Unity" of Persons is the "most logical" reason for the plural pronouns. Its implied by a "pattern" in man, and which exists in "reverse" in God:

"The Hebrew word דְּמוּת (demut) or “likeness” comes from the root word דָּמָה (damah) and has been defined as a pattern, form, shape, or image.- VanGemeren, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, 1:967."

What "pattern" exists in man that could be "reflex mirror image" of God?

God is One Divine Substance in Three Persons, Man is One Person in Three Substances:

Three Persons subsisting in One Name:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

One Person subsisting in three substances:
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

The premise God is looking at man as though in a mirror, and reflecting back is a "reversed pattern" of being seems unlikely at first.

BUT a study of the OT manifestations of God imply the compound unity in God and all other explanations for the appearance of plurals don't fit the context:


Commenting on such phenomena in OT scripture, Jewish Scholar Sommer concludes:


Indeed, in light of this study, certain cliché d assumptions common among both Jews and Christians who attempt to distinguish their theologies must be stood on their heads. Divine embodiment, paradoxically, emerges from this study as far more important to Judaism than to Christianity. For the Tanakh, for rabbinic literature, and for important strands in Jewish mysticism, God has always been a corporeal being. For Christianity, in contrast, God deigned to take on a body at a particular moment in time; existence in a body was not part of the eternal essence of divinity. In short: Christians believe in incarnation, whereas the Tanakh simply believes in embodiment. This difference between the Jewish model of divine embodiment and the Christian emphasis on incarnation nullifies, indeed overturns, an entire tradition of anti-Christian polemic within Judaism.-Sommer, Benjamin D.. The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel (p. 136). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Jesus was unique because he was and is also the Son of God.

So then if He is unique AND THE Son of God how is He allegedly 'not' God??
He never sinned. One cannot perfectly sinless AND as a human ... unless One is GOD.
Jesus said only God is (perfectly morally) good. Logically Jesus is God.
Jesus belittlers cannot use basic logic because their worldview stupidifies them. I just hope you are not among them.

I do not endorse Islam

If you believe that Jesus isn't God, you have "introduced Mohammed's nose into the tent of your brain".

Do you believe that the Bible translators were inspired and which Bible version do you endorse as inspired?

The original authors of the original Biblical texts were inspired.
It is very likely God aided the translators.
Any Bible version that best matches the original texts/copies of the texts. Ie, NASB 1900's versions.

Jesus is not a mere mortal.

If Jesus isn't God, that's the actual option you have. Either Jesus is God or He is weak.

You introduced "Islam" and now "CULTS".

Yeah so? Both those items deny the fact of Jesus' Divinity.

Jesus never sinned, but he partook of weak, mortal human nature.

In no way implies He isn't God.

Luke and Matthew are talking about the origin of Jesus, not an empty shell of a body.

Assertion, not fact. Back it up.

I believe that Genesis 1:26-27 is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man. Psalm 8:5 also confirms this.

See alfred's response/s.

Yes, it is God's Kingdom and Jesus has been raised from the dead and given immortality.

Jesus always had immortality. It was His body that died.
Just cuz we dont understand some things about death dont make Jesus not be God.

This is perhaps a good example of most Trinitarian's view of "only begotten". In other words, too difficult.

Nice dodge. Seems my answer (based on the Bible and not compromise with islam!) was what was too difficult to address.

Islam and the cults again.

They both have 'Jesus not God' ideology ingrained in them.

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is the Highest.

The Father is the 1st Person of the Trinity. The Son is the 2nd.