Futurist vs Preterist debate

JLB said:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24

Jesus taught His disciples to pray; Thy kingdom come...on earth as it is in heaven.

God's kingdom in heaven, will one day completely come and remove all the kingdoms of this world, so that the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. Revelation 11:15

That the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters covers the sea. Habakkuk

That the gold and the silver and the bronze and the iron and clay shall be crushed together and shall become as chaff, on the summer threshing floor, and no trace of them shall ever be found again.

I'll say that again; NO TRACE OF THEM SHALL EVER BE FOUND AGAIN.

That Day has not come.

That Day will come when Jesus returns, and puts an end to all rule and authority.

That Day is called the Day of the Lord.

In that Day He will personally destroy the lawless one with the brightness of His Coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

In that Day, He will be the Stone that was cut out without hands that strikes the Image on the ten toes, which are the ten kings that will arise and rule the final ten kingdoms, in the last days, as seen in Daniel 2:44


44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Daniel 2:44

...it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms


Read the description of the event that will forever change the kingdoms of the earth -

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found.


In that Day there will be no more wars or evil kingdoms or rulers left on earth.

In that Day, there will be rest for the people of God.


That Day is something to look forward to.


JLB

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dianegcook said:

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
9, And he said, Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10;Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Rev.5:1
And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev.6:1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals.....

Rev.7:3
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

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reba said:

Long non answer .... I remember you as the guy who expects clear direct answers from other members .. so i ask again and add a second question.

Is Jesus the Christ your King? Does your King have a Kingdom?
What do the Scriptures tell us the Kingdom is?

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Brother Mike said:

Jesus is head of the Church, the Rule of God is now here, his will, his way for those that will walk in it.

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reba said:

Long non answer .... I remember you as the guy who expects clear direct answers from other members .. so i ask again and add a second question.

Is Jesus the Christ your King? Does your King have a Kingdom?
What do the Scriptures tell us the Kingdom is?

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Brother Mike said:

You need to add some comments to your scriptures. A preterist will be clueless about Danial, Reba is stopping JLB and I from Making them look dumb (Which is fun) Since JLB and I are experts at debating scriptures and know both sides.

Should see JLB and I debate Post and Pre Trib Rapture. However, when a preterist rears it's head out of the brush, we band together to stamp out the corruption.

Go read Danial 11 and 12 together. In 12 Danial talks about the time leading up to, and the last 3 1/2 years of Tribulation.
Danial's book is not related to the seals John wrote about.

Danial was told the Words are sealed up until the time of the end. Only the wise shall understand.

So, what Danial had written was God's word, and the only understanding would be from those who lived at the last generation before the Tribulation.

Danial was given the generation time period this will all take place once the seal was removed and God's word released.

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(Dan 12:3-4)

The Words that were sealed up until later was "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased"

The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken. The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.
(Nah 2:3-4)

The Word knowledge in Hebrew means increased awareness, perception, skill and understanding.

Depending on who you asked, then seal was released in mid 1800's, or just after the 1900's In just 30 years period after 1900 man goes from it's first powered flight, to jet airplane.

The first gas combustion engine in a car came after 1900's (We had electric cars late 1800's

The first digital computer begin in 1939.

Atomic energy 1895-1945. Harnessing this knowledge did not come until 1939.

Israel became a nation 1948.

A release of NEW, never seen before technology came in the 1900's. Something man has never had.

In 1928 we had the first Antibiotic that would fight infection. Penecillien.

The 1900's introduced to man new technology that man never had before. Not improved past technology, but things we never conceived in the past.

Technology has ended. Nothing else new under the sun:

What Danials seal released has not been improved on. Cars are still gas combustion engines, Electric cars are not much different than their late 1800's counter parts, and Computers are capped out in speed. Planes are not any better.

The only thing we have been able to do is to improve on what the Lord gave man in the 1900's. A lot of technology is not price practical and can't be made for everyone's use.

AMD did get a CPU to clock at 6.5 ghz but it needed to be brought to absolute zero. If you want to run at 5 ghz at home you will need a liquid cooler for your CPU. Quatum experimental computers made ran no faster than what you get at the store.

IBM has made a Graphene chip, but we have to wait and see if it can be used for home use and is practical.

Our leaps and bounds in Technology has come to a crawl, we are in those last days.

Mike.

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Brother Mike said:

You need to add some comments to your scriptures. A preterist will be clueless about Danial, Reba is stopping JLB and I from Making them look dumb (Which is fun) Since JLB and I are experts at debating scriptures and know both sides.

Should see JLB and I debate Post and Pre Trib Rapture. However, when a preterist rears it's head out of the brush, we band together to stamp out the corruption.

Go read Danial 11 and 12 together. In 12 Danial talks about the time leading up to, and the last 3 1/2 years of Tribulation.
Danial's book is not related to the seals John wrote about.

Danial was told the Words are sealed up until the time of the end. Only the wise shall understand.

So, what Danial had written was God's word, and the only understanding would be from those who lived at the last generation before the Tribulation.

Danial was given the generation time period this will all take place once the seal was removed and God's word released.

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(Dan 12:3-4)

The Words that were sealed up until later was "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased"

The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken. The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.
(Nah 2:3-4)

The Word knowledge in Hebrew means increased awareness, perception, skill and understanding.

Depending on who you asked, then seal was released in mid 1800's, or just after the 1900's In just 30 years period after 1900 man goes from it's first powered flight, to jet airplane.

The first gas combustion engine in a car came after 1900's (We had electric cars late 1800's

The first digital computer begin in 1939.

Atomic energy 1895-1945. Harnessing this knowledge did not come until 1939.

Israel became a nation 1948.

A release of NEW, never seen before technology came in the 1900's. Something man has never had.

In 1928 we had the first Antibiotic that would fight infection. Penecillien.

The 1900's introduced to man new technology that man never had before. Not improved past technology, but things we never conceived in the past.

Technology has ended. Nothing else new under the sun:

What Danials seal released has not been improved on. Cars are still gas combustion engines, Electric cars are not much different than their late 1800's counter parts, and Computers are capped out in speed. Planes are not any better.

The only thing we have been able to do is to improve on what the Lord gave man in the 1900's. A lot of technology is not price practical and can't be made for everyone's use.

AMD did get a CPU to clock at 6.5 ghz but it needed to be brought to absolute zero. If you want to run at 5 ghz at home you will need a liquid cooler for your CPU. Quatum experimental computers made ran no faster than what you get at the store.

IBM has made a Graphene chip, but we have to wait and see if it can be used for home use and is practical.

Our leaps and bounds in Technology has come to a crawl, we are in those last days.

Mike.

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JLB said:

Jesus Christ is my King.

He is the King of the kingdom of God.

The scriptures tell us that we are instructed to pray for the kingdom of God to come, so the earth will be as it is in Heaven.

When He returns He will bring to an end of all other kingdoms and rule, so that the earth will be just as it is in heaven. Righteousness Peace and Joy over all the earth, just as it is in heaven.

JLB

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ezrider said:

Daniel was told to shut up the words and seal the book. John in the book of Revelation said the words of this prophecy are at hand.
But all that John saw and heard as given in the book of Revelation, what was not revealed, nor written for our sakes?

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ezrider said:

And yet all that you cited was the knowledge of the world. The advancement of technology. But what for the knowledge of the Lord?

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dianegcook said:

I believe Rev. Is an overlay of Daniel.
Dan.8: speaks of Antichrist
Daniel 9:27 abomination of desolation set up
Matt.24:15, abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel
Rev.17:5, the mark
Upon her forehead was a name written,,the mother of harlots and Abominations of the earth.

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reba said:

I wouldn't know a greek female noun if she was introduced to me..

I agree

I do know what the Kingdom of God is only because the the Scriptures tell us..

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Brother Mike said:

Man gets no knowledge unless the Lord opens it up for him. DAnial was speaking about mans knowledge and running to a fro. Mans perception increased toward the time of the end.

What I was doing was pinpointing the fact that up until the 1900's man went through McDonalds drive through on camels and horses. The Generation that received Danial knowledge was the start of the end. This is why it was sealed up and that knowledge was not given.

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ezrider said:

And yet you could explain that same increase of knowledge as you have cited it by claiming that the thousand years have expired and that Satan has already been released from the pit; to go forth and deceive the nations once more.

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JohnD said:

Ah. A preterist "tell." The preumption that God is so totally finished with Israel (the real basis of Preterism) that such questions presuppose the answer "before the cross" since there is no after the cross with anything Jewish...

My response is... puh roov it!

Prove that God is finished with the Jewish people and the priesthood sons of Zadok etc.

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39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
40 And at the side without, as one goeth up to the entry of the north gate, were two tables; and on the other side, which was at the porch of the gate, were two tables.
41 Four tables were on this side, and four tables on that side, by the side of the gate; eight tables, whereupon they slew their sacrifices.
42 And the four tables were of hewn stone for the burnt offering, of a cubit and an half long, and a cubit and an half broad, and one cubit high: whereupon also they laid the instruments wherewith they slew the burnt offering and the sacrifice.
43 And within were hooks, an hand broad, fastened round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the offering.
44 And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singers in the inner court, which was at the side of the north gate; and their prospect was toward the south: one at the side of the east gate having the prospect toward the north.
45 And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house.
46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the Lord to minister unto him.

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12 And according to the doors of the chambers that were toward the south was a door in the head of the way, even the way directly before the wall toward the east, as one entereth into them.
13 Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the Lord shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the utter court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people.

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43 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house.
6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
13 And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.
14 And from the bottom upon the ground even to the lower settle shall be two cubits, and the breadth one cubit; and from the lesser settle even to the greater settle shall be four cubits, and the breadth one cubit.
15 So the altar shall be four cubits; and from the altar and upward shall be four horns.
16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.
17 And the settle shall be fourteen cubits long and fourteen broad in the four squares thereof; and the border about it shall be half a cubit; and the bottom thereof shall be a cubit about; and his stairs shall look toward the east.
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the Lord, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord God.

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And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.
21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord God.
28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering: and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
30 And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house.
31 The priests shall not eat of any thing that is dead of itself, or torn, whether it be fowl or beast.

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dianegcook said:

Question for the preterist?
In Rev.21:
1, why do we still have seas?
2, there shall be anymore pain?
23, no need of sun, when did that happen?

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jasonc said:

I counter with the chapter in Isiah where it says the moon (which needs the sun to be lit) will be forever. the book also mentions that the Sabbath is forever.

so is it forever or is it not then in that part of Isiah?

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Brother Mike said:

What?

All Danial had was a book to be sealed, and when that Word was released, man's perception, awareness was increased. Only from 1900-1945 for the first time in the History of man we get brand new, never thought of technology that we still use today. We get tons of it in a short period of time. I just mentioned a few things.

Same say it started in the mid 1800's but man took a major leap in knowledge.

All that was is the start of the generation that comes to the end of things. I would not read much more into it.

Satan has always been around, His time is not yet. Had he been locked in a pit for any length of time then the History would be much different than it is now.

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