Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Barney Bright]

Alfred Person said,
Without a body, the soul will eventually cease to exist. That is why there is a resurrection of the wicked, so the soul within the body persists until fully punished according to deeds.[/QUOTE\]
I agree with some of what you said at post #283. But what I quoted from post #283 up above, I don't agree with. There's no Soul or living Soul in the physical human body. The scripture at Genesis 2:7 is teaching us that the physical human body that God formed from the dust of the ground became a living Soul or living person, when God blew the breath\spirit of life into the physical human body. So our physical human bodies are living souls or living persons as long as the breath\spirit of life is in the physical human body. So when the breath/spirit of life leaves the the physical human body, the physical human body which is the living soul as long as the breath/spirit is in the physical human body, but once the breath/spirit of life leaves the physical human body the physical humsn body stops being a living soul, or living person.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I disagree that Satan and his demons, the Beast, and false prophet are literally alive and literally feeling pain when thrown into the lake of fire. They would have to have immortality, for that to happen. You will find nowhere in the scriptures in which immortality, eternal life, or everlasting life are used as punishments. Immortality, everlasting life and eternal life are always rewards for the righteous or faithful. Satan and his demons, the Beast, and the false prophet are not righteous or faithful so they would never have immortality, everlasting life, or eternal life because they are rewards given to the righteous or faithful, they're not punishments given to the unrighteous, or unfaithful, because as I said I have never found where immortality, everlasting life or eternal life are given to the unrighteous or unfaithful.

The text explicitly contradicts that interpretation:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)

Your argument is unsound. It assumes persistence is immortality. A rock persists in flames but is not immortal.

God causes their persistence; He did not give them immortality.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Person said,
Without a body, the soul will eventually cease to exist. That is why there is a resurrection of the wicked, so the soul within the body persists until fully punished according to deeds.[/QUOTE\]
I agree with some of what you said at post #283. But what I quoted from post #283 up above, I don't agree with. There's no Soul or living Soul in the physical human body. The scripture at Genesis 2:7 is teaching us that the physical human body that God formed from the dust of the ground became a living Soul or living person, when God blew the breath\spirit of life into the physical human body. So our physical human bodies are living souls or living persons as long as the breath\spirit of life is in the physical human body. So when the breath/spirit of life leaves the the physical human body, the physical human body which is the living soul as long as the breath/spirit is in the physical human body, but once the breath/spirit of life leaves the physical human body the physical humsn body stops being a living soul, or living person.

Christ contradicted body and soul are one entity when He said man can only kill the body, but God can destroy both:

CJB Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom.

If your theory they are one entity were correct, the statement becomes tautological, self-contradicting and grammatically wrong:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the body. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and body in Gei-Hinnom."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"Cognitive dissonance" and "confirmation bias". When emotionally attached to a belief the brain refuses to see contrary facts, it "filters them out" because they cause too much "doubt" about one's beliefs.

That normally is a good thing, otherwise we would "freeze up" like a mindless computer whenever something "different" happened not foreseen in the programming. But its not a good thing for believers to ignore scripture. We must discipline ourselves to accept what Scripture teaches, even if it causes us to be rejected by our social group.

I once was a protestant "heresy hunter" behaving much like you, copy pasting the "official dogma" against heretics.

But only for a time, because my love for God's truth is greater than my desire to win praise from my fellows.

44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? (Jn. 5:44 NKJ)

43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. (Jn. 12:43 NKJ)

There's no emotional attachment to a future of eternal torment, man. The gospel is about the kingdom of HEAVEN, not hell. Most people are already in a living hell, what's the purpose of selling it? What's the point or benefit of teaching repentance in Hades, man? Why not repentance in this life? Does the Scripture not teach that we need to repent in this life? And how do you even know the rich man is genuinely repenting in Hades, instead of just regret? What's in it for you to defend him?

Just to clarify, man, I'm no "heresy hunter", you believe in annihilationism and repentance in Hades, and you prioritize those over the relationship with the Lord and other doctrines that really matter, then go for it. But keep in mind that the outcome is clear, what is written is written.

"between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’"
"I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't believe it's an misinterpretation, just because you or someone else says so. I believe what's written down at Genesis 2:7 and obviously you don't, because this scripture shows that the physical human bodies that were formed from the dust of the ground is what became a living Soul, or living person, when God blew the breath/spirit of life into the physical human body. So when the breath/spirit of life isn't in the physical human body then it's the physical human body that ceases being a living soul or living person. The only hope we have after death is that God resurrects us from the dead and we become living souls or living persons again. The hope for the dead has always been the resurrection hope.

Then where's annihilationism in that? By definition it's the antithesis of resurrection.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There's no emotional attachment to a future of eternal torment, man. The gospel is about the kingdom of HEAVEN, not hell. Most people are already in a living hell, what's the purpose of selling it? What's the point or benefit of teaching repentance in Hades, man? Why not repentance in this life? Does the Scripture not teach that we need to repent in this life? And how do you even know the rich man is genuinely repenting in Hades, instead of just regret? What's in it for you to defend him?

Just to clarify, man, I'm no "heresy hunter", you believe in annihilationism and repentance in Hades, and you prioritize those over the relationship with the Lord and other doctrines that really matter, then go for it. But keep in mind that the outcome is clear, what is written is written.

"between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’"
"I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut."

Some of the most effective enemies of the gospel became enemies because they rejected a God who conditions salvation on temporal and geographical luck.


Everyone hears the gospel when they die and are given a chance to be saved in Christ, if they didn't commit eternal sins or if they weren't already saved in this life. That is what a Just and Loving God would do. If the church preached that, perhaps the theory of evolution wouldn't exist.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Some of the most effective enemies of the gospel became enemies because they rejected a God who conditions salvation on temporal and geographical luck.


Everyone hears the gospel when they die and are given a chance to be saved in Christ, if they didn't commit eternal sins or if they weren't already saved in this life. That is what a Just and Loving God would do. If the church preached that, perhaps the theory of evolution wouldn't exist.

Salvation is limited to this life, not the next. God will reap what is sowed in this life, there's no seed of gospel in the next life. What you're preaching or implying is no different than the "hyper grace" heresy, that you can do whatever you like in this life, all will be forgiven, even in the grave you can still repent.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Salvation is limited to this life, not the next. God will reap what is sowed in this life, there's no seed of gospel in the next life. What you're preaching or implying is no different than the "hyper grace" heresy, that you can do whatever you like in this life, all will be forgiven, even in the grave you can still repent.

Christ appeared once to put away sin always, regardless when or where a person is born.

All hear the gospel, if not in this life, then after they die. For this cause the gospel was preached also to the dead:

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 KJV)

Its appointed for all to die once, then the Judgment.

They hear the gospel preached also to the dead, and those who repent live according to God in the Spirit, eagerly waiting for Christ's second appearing, for salvation:

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 KJV)

Its too bad this clear teaching of scripture is rejected to cling to Catholic eisegesis about hades, which Catholics themselves have largely backed away from.

The sacrifice of Christ is applied to all who ever lived, regardless of time they were born. All have equal opportunity to be alive in Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Christ appeared once to put away sin always, regardless when or where a person is born.

All hear the gospel, if not in this life, then after they die. For this cause the gospel was preached also to the dead:

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 KJV)

Its appointed for all to die once, then the Judgment.

They hear the gospel preached also to the dead, and those who repent live according to God in the Spirit, eagerly waiting for Christ's second appearing, for salvation:

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 KJV)

Its too bad this clear teaching of scripture is rejected to cling to Catholic eisegesis about hades, which Catholics themselves have largely backed away from.

The sacrifice of Christ is applied to all who ever lived, regardless of time they were born. All have equal opportunity to be alive in Christ.

Believe what you like, man. The gospel may be preached to the dead, but the outcome is determined:

"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Rev. 22:11

 

[Barney Bright]

Christ contradicted body and soul are one entity when He said man can only kill the body, but God can destroy both:

CJB Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom.

If your theory they are one entity were correct, the statement becomes tautological, self-contradicting and grammatically wrong:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the body. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and body in Gei-Hinnom."

Commenting on Matthew 10:28 in his book Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? Professor Oscar Cullmann writes: “psykhe[soul] here does not mean the Greek concept of soul but should rather be translated life."

The New Bible Commentary (Second Edition, page 786) defines Gehenna as “a description of ‘the second death.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states regarding this scripture: "Matt. 10:28, teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant.”

I haven't found any scripture that says anyone will be resurrected from gehenna, because it does similarly represent the second death.

Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning “eternal death” with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated “destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” So, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.

So I disagree that Jesus was contradicting what I said that it's our physical human bodies that became living souls. We human beings are living souls we don't have living souls in our bodies. Genesis 2: 7 is very clear to me because this scripture is saying that God took dust from the ground formed a flesh and blood human body from this dust, then God blew the breath/spirit of life into this flesh and blood human body, and it's this flesh and blood human body that became a living soul. Nowhere in Genesis 2: 7 does it say that God gave a living soul to the flesh and blood human body. If it did I would agree what you said in post #283 when you said, "Without a body, the soul will eventually cease to exist. That is why there is a resurrection of the wicked, so the soul within the body persists until fully punished according to deeds."
So I still disagree with you when you said that we human beings have souls within our human bodies, because this would contradict Genesis 2: 7 that says the human body became a living soul. Jesus would never contradict this scripture.

 

[Barney Bright]

The text explicitly contradicts that interpretation:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)

Your argument is unsound. It assumes persistence is immortality. A rock persists in flames but is not immortal.

God causes their persistence; He did not give them immortality.

I don't agree that what I said is unsound.
It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint in eternal death forever. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek basanos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a jailer.
The scriptures say that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. However death can't literally be thrown into the lake of fire.
Death isn't an object, animal or person, death is a state or condition. How could it literally be thrown into a literal lake of fire?
We have to understand that revelation was told to John in signs, so a lot will be symbolic. So I can see that death and Hades are symbolically thrown into the lake of fire not literally thrown into the lake of fire. Also the scriptures make it clear that the lake of fire is symbolic of second death, because the scriptures themselves call the lake of fire, the second death. Death and Hades that the scriptures say is thrown into the lake of fire is temporary. God will resurrect all the dead from Hades that he has judged worthy of a resurrection. The lake of fire which is the second death is also a condition but it is an eternal condition.

 

[Barney Bright]

Then where's annihilationism in that? By definition it's the antithesis of resurrection.

The death that we experience because of the sin of Adam is temporary. What it means when a human being dies is that we don't exist as living persons temporarily. If God has judged a person as worthy of the resurrection then he/she who has died will be brought back into existence as living souls or living persons.

However when it comes to the second death, which is what the lake of fire is, this death is eternal. So all those persons thrown into the lake of fire will be in a condition of non-existence forever, that means annihilated forever

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The death that we experience because of the sin of Adam is temporary. What it means when a human being dies is that we don't exist as living persons temporarily. If God has judged a person as worthy of the resurrection then he/she who has died will be brought back into existence as living souls or living persons.

However when it comes to the second death, which is what the lake of fire is, this death is eternal. So all those persons thrown into the lake of fire will be in a condition of non-existence forever, that means annihilated forever

Not really. If you believe that a soul, by biblical definition, is spirit breathed into a body, and we're fighting not fresh and blood but these evil spirits, then the body returns to dust, i.e. decomposing, these evil spirits will be tormented. They asked Jesus in one exorcism account: "have you come to torment us before the appointed time?" (Matt. 8:29) Obviously lake of fire is the appointed time. If they're to be tormented, then that's not annihilation.

 

[Barney Bright]

Not really. If you believe that a soul, by biblical definition, is spirit breathed into a body, and we're fighting not fresh and blood but these evil spirits, then the body returns to dust, i.e. decomposing, these evil spirits will be tormented. They asked Jesus in one exorcism account: "have you come to torment us before the appointed time?" (Matt. 8:29) Obviously the lake of fire is the appointed time. If they're to be tormented, then that's not annihilation.

I don't agree that a soul, by biblical definition is what was given or put in the human body. Genesis 2: 7 doesn't say that, but this scripture says and makes clear that it was the physical human body that became a living soul when God blew the breath of life into the physical human body. Genesis 2: 7 doesn't say that God gave the physical human body a living soul or put a living soul in the physical human body when he blew the breath of life into the physical human body. I understand that you believe God gave a soul to the physical human body or put a soul in the physical human body, and you honestly believe that's biblical but I honestly don't believe the word became that's in Genesis 2: 7 can be discarded as I see you doing.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Commenting on Matthew 10:28 in his book Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? Professor Oscar Cullmann writes: “psykhe[soul] here does not mean the Greek concept of soul but should rather be translated life."

Cullman never said that. He said:

"... It is important to see how different the New Testament anthropology is from that of the Greeks. Body and soul are both originally good in so far as they are created by God; they are both bad in so far as the deadly power of the flesh has hold of them. Both can and must be set free by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit.

Here, therefore, deliverance consists not in a release of soul from body but in a release of both from flesh. We are not released from the body; rather the body itself is set free. This is made especially clear in the Pauline Epistles, but it is the interpretation of the whole New Testament. In this connexion one does not find the differences which are present among the various books on other points. Even the much-quoted saying of Jesus in Matthew 10:28 in no way presupposes the Greek conception. ‘Fear not them that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul.’ It might seem to presuppose the view that the soul has no need of the body, but the context of the passage shows that this is not the case. Jesus does not continue: ‘Be afraid of him who kills the soul’ ; rather: ‘Fear him who can slay both soul and body in Gehenna.’ That is, fear God, who is able to give comletely to death; to wit, when He does not resurrect you to life. We shall see, it is true, that the soul is the starting-point of the resurrection, since, as we have said, it can already be possessed by the Holy Spirit in a way quite different from the body. The Holy Spirit already lives in our inner man. ‘By the Holy Spirit who dwells in you (already)’, says Paul in Romans 8:11, ‘God will also quicken your mortal bodies.’ Therefore, those who kill only the body are not to be feared. It can be raised from the dead. Moreover, it must be raised. The soul cannot always remain without a body. And on the other side we hear in Jesus’ saying in Matthew 10:28 that the soul can be killed. The soul is not immortal. There must be resurrection for both; for since the Fall the whole man is ‘sown corruptible’. For the inner man, thanks to the transformation by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection can take place already in this present life: through the ‘renewal from day to day’. The flesh, however, still maintains its seat in our body. The transformation of the body does not take place until the End, when the whole creation will be made new by the Holy Spirit, when there will be no death and no corruption."-Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? Chapter 2. By Oscar Cullmann

And Cullmann misunderstood Christ's warning, the terrible nature of Gehenna. Its a place of PHYSICAL and SOULICAL torment, BOTH are horribly destroyed (622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi), that is ruined just as wineskins can be destroyed, ruined for use (Mt. 9:17)

622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

The abominable Resurrection body and soul of the wicked are "destroyed" in the same way as a "body and soul" in the TV show "The Walking Dead" is a destroyed human being.

The resurrection body of the wicked reeks of corruption, infested with undying worms that literally "eat it alive". The soul is trapped within, the "person" himself is enduring physical pain, and the "person" or "life" within is also suffering spiritual pain from being separated from all that is good.

Unlike the abominations in the "Walking Dead", these resurrected bodies of the wicked are "corpses, dead carcasses" that cannot walk to lesser tormenting regions of Gehenna, or see any light. It is the "outer darkness" far away from anything good from God. The abominations are in Gehenna a garbage dump piled up on top of each other like rubbish, burning in unquenchable fire.

THAT IS WHY we should fear God, Gehenna is FAR FAR worse than annihilation. Far worse than any Cessation of life regardless how horribly it is accomplished. Gehenna is forever:

42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 "where `Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' (Mk. 9:42-48 NKJ)

Unlike the horrible death by millstone hung around the neck like a guillotine and then being tossed into the sea Gehenna, a temporary experience.....Gehenna is far worse.

The worms consuming these bodies never die, which means the bodies never die and the "life" or "person" or "soul" imprisoned within, also has not been killed.

Both are "ruined" as to what God intended, not only is the body not the Temple of God it was designed to be in loving communion with the soul within it, and the body communicating the joys and experiences of life to the soul within. Body and Soul are now destroyed, the abominable resurrection body communicates the Holy Wrath of an offended God, intense physical and spiritual pain to the person (life, soul) imprisoned within.


As I pointed out, Scripture does NOT teach "one size fits all". The penalty of Gehenna doesn't have the same effect on all tossed into it, just as fire consumes hay, but rocks can persist forever.

Scripture does teach many who die unsaved do not merit anything more than annihilation. The symbolism of the Lake of fire shows the wicked receive "their part" or "destiny" "according to their works" in the lake of fire. Some can be utterly destroyed as Death and Hades are, or suffer for a time and then be destroyed, "burnt up". But some can merit eternal torment like the False Prophet, Beast, and Satan do (Rev. 20:10).

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't agree that what I said is unsound.
It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten.

The Beast and his image are not symbolic. The Beast's name will be Adonikam, he will appear first to a fallen away Church as "the Christ", working miracles by the power of the devil. As the "man of sin" he will be a "progressive", condoning sin, calling it "diversity." He is "of Sin" because he is the hybrid human-Elohim "seed of Satan" (Gen. 3:15). His "image" will be a Quantum computing Artificial Intelligence patterned with the Beast's personality, and made one with him through a neurolink.

Once connected to the internet, the Beast will have "god like" power to see and hear everything that occurs near a connected device, in real time. With the AI, he will be able to filter out "the noise" and focus on anything he wants.

The text is clear, and in the context is a warning to Christians, do not accept the Mark. Accept Martyrdom, do not resist (Rev. 13:10) for you will be rewarded. And those who endure to the end will be raptured (Mk. 13:13):

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
(Rev. 14:9-16 NKJ)

 

[Barney Bright]

I said at post # 310, "Commenting on Matthew 10:28 in his book Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? Professor Oscar Cullmann writes: “psykhe[soul] here does not mean the Greek concept of soul but should rather be translated life."[/Quote\]

Alfred Person said,
"Cullman never said that."[/QUOTE\]

I don't agree with everything Professor Cullman says in his book. What I was saying is that Professor Cullman said in his book titled, "Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead" that the Greek word psykhe(soul) doesn't mean the Greek concept if soul but should be translated life. In that book in the chapter titled The Wages of Sin: Death, I think in the seventh paragraph in this chapter, Professor Cullman lists three scriptures, Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25, and Matthew 10:28. After he lists these three scriptures he has in brackets the word "life." He does this to help us understand that the Greek word psykhe(soul) in these three scriptures means life, not the Greek concept of the word psykhe(soul). So what I said in post #310 is correct about what Professor Cullman said.

 

[Barney Bright]

The Beast and his image are not symbolic. The Beast's name will be Adonikam, he will appear first to a fallen away Church as "the Christ", working miracles by the power of the devil. As the "man of sin" he will be a "progressive", condoning sin, calling it "diversity." He is "of Sin" because he is the hybrid human-Elohim "seed of Satan" (Gen. 3:15). His "image" will be a Quantum computing Artificial Intelligence patterned with the Beast's personality, and made one with him through a neurolink.

Once connected to the internet, the Beast will have "god like" power to see and hear everything that occurs near a connected device, in real time. With the AI, he will be able to filter out "the noise" and focus on anything he wants.

The text is clear, and in the context is a warning to Christians, do not accept the Mark. Accept Martyrdom, do not resist (Rev. 13:10) for you will be rewarded. And those who endure to the end will be raptured (Mk. 13:13):

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:9-16 NKJ)

I haven't found in scripture anywhere that the Beasts name is Adonikam, and I don't agree that the Beasts "image" will be a Quantum computing Artificial Intelligence patterned with the Beast's personality, and made one with him through a neurolink.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I said at post # 310, "Commenting on Matthew 10:28 in his book Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? Professor Oscar Cullmann writes: “psykhe[soul] here does not mean the Greek concept of soul but should rather be translated life."[/Quote\]

Alfred Person said,
"Cullman never said that."[/QUOTE\]

I don't agree with everything Professor Cullman says in his book. What I was saying is that Professor Cullman said in his book titled, "Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead" that the Greek word psykhe(soul) doesn't mean the Greek concept if soul but should be translated life. In that book in the chapter titled The Wages of Sin: Death, I think in the seventh paragraph in this chapter, Professor Cullman lists three scriptures, Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25, and Matthew 10:28. After he lists these three scriptures he has in brackets the word "life." He does this to help us understand that the Greek word psykhe(soul) in these three scriptures means life, not the Greek concept of the word psykhe(soul). So what I said in post #310 is correct about what Professor Cullman said.

Again you misrepresent what he says. He does not agree with you at all:

"The New Testament certainly knows the difference between body and soul, or more precisely, between the inner and the outer man. This distinction does not, however, imply opposition, as if the one were by nature good, the other by nature bad. (Also the words of Jesus in Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25 and Matthew 10:28 [life] do not speak of an ‘infinite value of the immortal soul’ and presuppose no higher valuation of the inner man. See also re [Mark 14:38] Kümmel, Das Bild des Menschen, pp. 16ff.) Both belong together, both are created by God. The inner man without the outer has no proper, full existence. It requires a body. It can, to be sure, somehow lead a shady existence without the body, like the dead in Sheol according to the Old Testament, but that is not a genuine life. The contrast with the Greek soul is clear: it is precisely apart from the body that the Greek soul attains to full development of its life. According to the Christian view, however, it is the inner man’s very nature which demands the body."

Either "confirmation bias" veils what Cullmann says, or intellectual dishonesty. No one should accept your quotes unless they can read the context of them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I haven't found in scripture anywhere that the Beasts name is Adonikam, and I don't agree that the Beasts "image" will be a Quantum computing ArtificialT Intelligence patterned with the Beast's personality, and made one with him through a neurolink.

To see it in scripture requires interpretive wisdom:

Adonikam is the Name of the Beast having 666 meaning | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six (Rev. 13:18 KJV) Many insist we use Gematria (substituting letters for numbers) to solve the riddle of 666 meaning, although they cannot...

endtimenews.net

The Image of the Beast will be an Artificial Intelligence | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Many nations make the image to the beast; therefore it cannot be a low tech idol. It is a "living" Artificial Intelligence able to defend itself, killing anyone who tries to disconnect. 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the

endtimenews.net