Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't agree that a soul, by biblical definition is what was given or put in the human body. Genesis 2: 7 doesn't say that, but this scripture says and makes clear that it was the physical human body that became a living soul when God blew the breath of life into the physical human body. Genesis 2: 7 doesn't say that God gave the physical human body a living soul or put a living soul in the physical human body when he blew the breath of life into the physical human body. I understand that you believe God gave a soul to the physical human body or put a soul in the physical human body, and you honestly believe that's biblical but I honestly don't believe the word became that's in Genesis 2: 7 can be discarded as I see you doing.

The word "soul" in both Hebrew and Greek means a living being, it's the outcome of God breathing life into a body. The word "spirit" in both Hebrew and Greek means breath or wind. When God blew the breath of life into the physical human body, the body was activated by the spirit, and it became a living being. Paul quoted Gen. 2:7 to describe Jesus as a life-giving spirit, that's the breath of life.

"And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Cor. 15:45

 

[Barney Bright]

Again you misrepresent what he says. He does not agree with you at all:

"The New Testament certainly knows the difference between body and soul, or more precisely, between the inner and the outer man. This distinction does not, however, imply opposition, as if the one were by nature good, the other by nature bad. (Also the words of Jesus in Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25 and Matthew 10:28 [life] do not speak of an ‘infinite value of the immortal soul’ and presuppose no higher valuation of the inner man. See also re [Mark 14:38] Kümmel, Das Bild des Menschen, pp. 16ff.) Both belong together, both are created by God. The inner man without the outer has no proper, full existence. It requires a body. It can, to be sure, somehow lead a shady existence without the body, like the dead in Sheol according to the Old Testament, but that is not a genuine life. The contrast with the Greek soul is clear: it is precisely apart from the body that the Greek soul attains to full development of its life. According to the Christian view, however, it is the inner man’s very nature which demands the body."

Either "confirmation bias" veils what Cullmann says, or intellectual dishonesty. No one should accept your quotes unless they can read the context of them.

I don't agree that I'm misrepresenting Professor Cullman. Those three scriptures that he listed, Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25, and Matthew 10:28 with the word "life" in brackets after them means these scriptures were talking about the life of the human being, these scriptures are not speaking about some immortal immaterial person that's in the human body. The word soul in these scriptures means "life." When I read these scriptures I can see that for myself, that this is true.
I know most people when you talk to them, they believe the soul to be immortal. But Genesis 2: 7 doesn't teach the living soul is immortal and that it's separate from the human body.
Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that God made a body and put a soul in it, like a letter into an envelope of dust, rather he formed man's body from the dust, then by breathing divine breath into it, he made the body of dust live, in other words the dust did not embody a living soul, but it became a living soul. So when a human being dies he/she is no longer a living soul, or living person. This means, that if the breath/spirit of life has left the human body, a living soul or living person no longer exists. If someone says that the breath/spirit of life is a immortal living soul or living person that goes somewhere after death, they are in error, according to Genesis 2: 7 because it doesn't say the breath/spirit of life is the living soul or living person.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't agree that I'm misrepresenting Professor Cullman. Those three scriptures that he listed, Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25, and Matthew 10:28 with the word "life" in brackets after them means these scriptures were talking about the life of the human being, these scriptures are not speaking about some immortal immaterial person that's in the human body. The word soul in these scriptures means "life." When I read these scriptures I can see that for myself, that this is true.
I know most people when you talk to them, they believe the soul to be immortal. But Genesis 2: 7 doesn't teach the living soul is immortal and that it's separate from the human body.
Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that God made a body and put a soul in it, like a letter into an envelope of dust, rather he formed man's body from the dust, then by breathing divine breath into it, he made the body of dust live, in other words the dust did not embody a living soul, but it became a living soul. So when a human being dies he/she is no longer a living soul, or living person. This means, that if the breath/spirit of life has left the human body, a living soul or living person no longer exists. If someone says that the breath/spirit of life is a immortal living soul or living person that goes somewhere after death, they are in error, according to Genesis 2: 7 because it doesn't say the breath/spirit of life is the living soul or living person.

You cited Cullmann for support, but I bolded and colored red the wording that disagrees with you. Cullmann says the soul needs the body to enjoy life, without a body the soul becomes a "shade". Therefore, contrary to your position, Cullmann sees the body as separate from the soul, just as Christ did when He refers to BOTH.

"The New Testament certainly knows the difference between body and soul, or more precisely, between the inner and the outer man. This distinction does not, however, imply opposition, as if the one were by nature good, the other by nature bad. (Also the words of Jesus in Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:25 and Matthew 10:28 [life] do not speak of an ‘infinite value of the immortal soul’ and presuppose no higher valuation of the inner man. See also re [Mark 14:38] Kümmel, Das Bild des Menschen, pp. 16ff.) Both belong together, both are created by God. The inner man without the outer has no proper, full existence. It requires a body. It can, to be sure, somehow lead a shady existence without the body, like the dead in Sheol according to the Old Testament, but that is not a genuine life.

When God breathed into Adam the "Spirit of life", man's body was animated by a "soul". Therefore, the substance of the Human soul is the breath-Spirit of God, united with the body made from dust. Together the man became a living soul or being by the Word's Command.

Therefore, body and soul therefore cannot be the same thing.

Together they exist in the state God intended, but when the body dies the soul continues to exist, albeit gets weaker and weaker becoming a "shadow/shade" of its former self. Eventually it would cease to exist, deprived of "animating spirit" which returned to God who gave it.

Wheather or not a "husk" (=habitation) of the soul remained after all animating spirit is gone, is something Jews debated in Jesus' day and left undecided. We see discussion about that in the Talmud.

Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14). Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (I Sam. ii. Jo). R. Isaac b. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot' (R.H. 16b et seq.).

We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse from Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for `generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that Gehinnom will cease.' They will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse.-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 378.

Christ contradicted Gehenna will cease, and I disagree with the proposition they remain in existence. God said they will not rise, He visited them with destruction:

They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction (08045 שָׁמַד shamad) and wiped out all remembrance of them. (Isa. 26:14 RSV)

"Destruction" means "extermination".

08045 שָׁמַד shamad {shaw-mad'}
Meaning: 1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated 1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated 1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to annihilate, exterminate 1b2) to destroy.--Strong's Concordance

When the spirit returns to God who gave it, the soul becomes a "shade/shadow" of its former self, getting weaker and weaker till it is extinguished. Destroyed, annhilated.


Therefore, your position they are one entity, is clearly wrong. Christ referred to both, that proves both exist.

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 YLT)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that God made a body and put a soul in it, like a letter into an envelope of dust, rather he formed man's body from the dust, then by breathing divine breath into it, he made the body of dust live,

Professor Gustav Oehler discussed this event in detail. Study it and be profited:



Body, Soul, Spirit

Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. According to the view of many, the specific difference between the life of the human soul and that of animals is expressed by the use of the term נְשָׁמָה in 2:7 (2). This, however, cannot be established, for in 7:22 (“All in whose nostrils was the breath of life died”), the exclusive reference of the expression נְשָׁמָה to man (as merely another expression for כֹּל הָאָדָם, ver. 21), coming between the general terms comprehending man and beast, which stand both before and after it, is not natural. In Deut. 20:16, Josh. 10:40, 11:11–14, כָּל־נְשָׁמָה denotes only men; but in these passages the special reference of the expression is made clear by the connection,—in the passage in Deuteronomy by ver. 18, and in the book of Joshua because from 8:2 onward the cattle are excepted from the חֵרֶם. Otherwise one might as well prove from Josh. 11:11, where כָּל־הַנֶּפֶשׁ is used exclusively of man, that the human soul alone is called נֶפֶשׁ. But it is correct that in the other places in the Old Testament in which נְשָׁמָה occurs it is never expressly used of the mere animal principle of life; p 150 comp. Isa. 42:5, Prov. 20:27, Job 32:8, and Ps. 150:6 (כֹּל הַנְּשָׁמָה). Thus the substance of the human soul is the divine spirit of life uniting itself with matter; the spirit is not merely the cause by reason of which the נֶפֶש contained beforehand in the body becomes living, as Gen. 2:7 has by some been understood (3). For in the עָפָר as such, in the structure of dust, there is, according to the Old Testament, as yet no נֶפֶשׁ, even latently. This is first in the בָּשָׂר, in the flesh; but the earthly materials do not become flesh until the רוּחַ has become united with it, 6:17, 7:15, Job 12:10, 34:14 f. It is no proof against this (as has further been objected) that in some passages (Lev. 21:11; Num. 6:6), the dead body from which, according to Gen. 35:18, the soul has departed, is called נֶפֶשׁ מֵת before it crumbles to dust. I believe this expression is to be understood as a euphemistic metonymy, just as we speak of a dead person without meaning to say that the personality lies in the body; or perhaps in this designation of a dead person the impression is expressed which the corpse makes immediately after death, as if the element of the soul had not yet entirely separated itself (thus Delitzsch) (4). But as the soul sprang from the spirit, the רוּחַ, and contains the substance of the spirit as the basis of its existence, the soul exists and lives also only by the power of the רוּחַ; in order to live, the soul which is called into existence must remain in connection with the source of its life. “God’s spirit made me” (רוּחַ אֵל עָשָׂ֑תְנִי), says Job. 33:4, “and the breath of the Almighty animates me” (וְנִשְׁמַת שַׁדַּי תְחַיֵנִי, with the imperfect). The first sentence expresses the way in which the human soul is called into being; the second, the continuing condition of its subsistence. By the withdrawing of the רוּחַ the soul becomes wearied and weak, till at last in death it becomes a shadow, and enters the kingdom of the dead (comp. § 78); while by the רוּחַ streaming in, it receives vital energy. With this explanation the Old Testament usage in connection with the terms נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ becomes intelligible. In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality,—in the case of man his personality, his self, his ego; because man is not רוּחַ, but has it—he is soul. Hence only נַפְשִׁי, נַפְשְׁךָ, can stand for egomet ipse, tu ipse, etc., not רוּחִי, רוּחֲךָ, etc. (not so in Arabic); hence “soul” often stands for the whole person, Gen. 12:5, 17:14, Ezek. 18:4, etc. When man is exhausted by illness, his רוּחַ is corrupted within him, Job 17:1 (רוּחִי חֻבָּלָה), so that the soul still continues to vegetate wearily. When a person in a swoon comes to himself again, it is said his spirit returns to him, 1 Sam. 30:12 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ) compared with Judg. 15:19. But when one dies, it is said the soul departs, Gen. 35:18; his soul is taken from him, 1 Kings 19:4, Jonah 4:3. When a dead person becomes alive again, is is said the soul returns again, 1 Kings 17:22 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ). It is said of Jacob, whose sunken vital energy revived when he found his son again, that his spirit was quickened, Gen. 45:27 (וַתְּחִי רוּחַ). On the contrary, of one who is preserved in life it is said, חָיְתָה נֶפֶשׁ, [the soul lives] Jer. 38:17–20. When God rescues one from the jaws of death, it is said, Ps. 30:4, “Thou hast brought up my soul out of Sheol;” comp. Ps. 16:10 (5).—Man perceives and thinks by virtue of the spirit which animates him (Job 32:8; Prov. 20:27); wherefore it is said in 1 Kings 10:5, when the Queen of Sheba’s comprehension was brought to a stand, that “there was no spirit in her more” (לֹא־הָיָה בָהּ עוֹד רוּחַ); but the p 151 perceiving and thinking subject itself is the נֶפֶש (comp. § 71). The impulse to act proceeds from the רוּחִ, Ex. 35:21; hence one who rules himself is a משֵׁל בְּרוּחוֹ, Prov. 16:32. But the acting subject is not the רוּחַ, but the נֶפֶשׁ; the soul is the subject which sins, Ezek. 18:4, etc. Love and attachment are of course a thing of the soul, Gen. 34:3 (וִתִּדְבַּק נַפְשׁוֹ) and ver. 8 (חָשְׁקָה נַפְשׁוֹ); and so in Cant. 5:6, the words of the beloved, נַפְשִׁי יָצְאָה, cannot be explained, “I was out of my senses” (as De Wette thinks), but the bride feels as if her very personality had gone forth from her to follow and seek her beloved. In many cases, indeed, נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ stand indifferently, according as the matter is looked upon—that is, to use Hofmann’s words (Schriftbeweis, i. p. 296), according as “the personality is named after its special individual life, or after the living power which forms the condition of its special character.” Thus it may be said on the one hand, “Why is thy spirit so stubborn?” (מַה־זֶּה רוּחֲךָ סָרָה), 1 Kings 21:5; on the other hand, “Why are thou so bowed down, O my soul?” (מַה־תּשְׁתּוחֲחִי נַפְשׁי), Ps. 42:12. Of impatience it may be said, “The soul is short” (וַתִּקְצַר נֶפֶשׁ), Num. 21:4, and “shortness of the spirit” (קֹצֶר רוּחַ), Ex. 6:9; compare Job 21:4. Trouble of heart is “bitterness of the spirit” (מֹרַת רוּחַ), Gen. 26:35; and of the soul (הֵמַר נַפְשִׁי), Job 27:2, it is said וַתּפָֽעֶם רוּחוֹ, Gen. 41:8, and נַפְשִׁי נִבְהֲלָה מְאֹד, Ps. 6:4. Compare with this in particular the climax in Isa. 26:9 (6). From all this it is clear that the Old Testament does not teach a trichotomy of the human being in the sense of body, soul, and spirit, as being originally three co-ordinate elements of man; rather the whole man is included in the בָּשָׂר and נֶפֶשׁ (body and soul), which spring from the union of the רוּחַ with matter, Ps. 84:3, Isa. 10:18; comp. Ps. 16:9. The רוּחַ forms in part the substance of the soul individualized in it, and in part, after the soul is established, the power and endowments which flow into it and can be withdrawn from it (7), (8). -Oehler, G. F., & Day, G. E. (1883). Theology of the Old Testament (pp. 149–152). Funk & Wagnalls.

 

[Barney Bright]

To see it in scripture requires interpretive wisdom

Adonikam is the Name of the Beast having 666 meaning | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six (Rev. 13:18 KJV) Many insist we use Gematria (substituting letters for numbers) to solve the riddle of 666 meaning, although they cannot...

endtimenews.net

http://

[/QUOTE\] I certainly agree with what Revelation 13:18 says of course. But I disagree with you're interpretation.The scriptures tell us that the wild beast has a man's name which is 666, in Revelation chapter 13. But I'm not going to go in detail why I disagree with you there's too much that I would have to say.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Professor Gustav Oehler discussed this event in detail. Study it and be profited:



Body, Soul, Spirit

Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. According to the view of many, the specific difference between the life of the human soul and that of animals is expressed by the use of the term נְשָׁמָה in 2:7 (2). This, however, cannot be established, for in 7:22 (“All in whose nostrils was the breath of life died”), the exclusive reference of the expression נְשָׁמָה to man (as merely another expression for כֹּל הָאָדָם, ver. 21), coming between the general terms comprehending man and beast, which stand both before and after it, is not natural. In Deut. 20:16, Josh. 10:40, 11:11–14, כָּל־נְשָׁמָה denotes only men; but in these passages the special reference of the expression is made clear by the connection,—in the passage in Deuteronomy by ver. 18, and in the book of Joshua because from 8:2 onward the cattle are excepted from the חֵרֶם. Otherwise one might as well prove from Josh. 11:11, where כָּל־הַנֶּפֶשׁ is used exclusively of man, that the human soul alone is called נֶפֶשׁ. But it is correct that in the other places in the Old Testament in which נְשָׁמָה occurs it is never expressly used of the mere animal principle of life; p 150 comp. Isa. 42:5, Prov. 20:27, Job 32:8, and Ps. 150:6 (כֹּל הַנְּשָׁמָה). Thus the substance of the human soul is the divine spirit of life uniting itself with matter; the spirit is not merely the cause by reason of which the נֶפֶש contained beforehand in the body becomes living, as Gen. 2:7 has by some been understood (3). For in the עָפָר as such, in the structure of dust, there is, according to the Old Testament, as yet no נֶפֶשׁ, even latently. This is first in the בָּשָׂר, in the flesh; but the earthly materials do not become flesh until the רוּחַ has become united with it, 6:17, 7:15, Job 12:10, 34:14 f. It is no proof against this (as has further been objected) that in some passages (Lev. 21:11; Num. 6:6), the dead body from which, according to Gen. 35:18, the soul has departed, is called נֶפֶשׁ מֵת before it crumbles to dust. I believe this expression is to be understood as a euphemistic metonymy, just as we speak of a dead person without meaning to say that the personality lies in the body; or perhaps in this designation of a dead person the impression is expressed which the corpse makes immediately after death, as if the element of the soul had not yet entirely separated itself (thus Delitzsch) (4). But as the soul sprang from the spirit, the רוּחַ, and contains the substance of the spirit as the basis of its existence, the soul exists and lives also only by the power of the רוּחַ; in order to live, the soul which is called into existence must remain in connection with the source of its life. “God’s spirit made me” (רוּחַ אֵל עָשָׂ֑תְנִי), says Job. 33:4, “and the breath of the Almighty animates me” (וְנִשְׁמַת שַׁדַּי תְחַיֵנִי, with the imperfect). The first sentence expresses the way in which the human soul is called into being; the second, the continuing condition of its subsistence. By the withdrawing of the רוּחַ the soul becomes wearied and weak, till at last in death it becomes a shadow, and enters the kingdom of the dead (comp. § 78); while by the רוּחַ streaming in, it receives vital energy. With this explanation the Old Testament usage in connection with the terms נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ becomes intelligible. In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality,—in the case of man his personality, his self, his ego; because man is not רוּחַ, but has it—he is soul. Hence only נַפְשִׁי, נַפְשְׁךָ, can stand for egomet ipse, tu ipse, etc., not רוּחִי, רוּחֲךָ, etc. (not so in Arabic); hence “soul” often stands for the whole person, Gen. 12:5, 17:14, Ezek. 18:4, etc. When man is exhausted by illness, his רוּחַ is corrupted within him, Job 17:1 (רוּחִי חֻבָּלָה), so that the soul still continues to vegetate wearily. When a person in a swoon comes to himself again, it is said his spirit returns to him, 1 Sam. 30:12 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ) compared with Judg. 15:19. But when one dies, it is said the soul departs, Gen. 35:18; his soul is taken from him, 1 Kings 19:4, Jonah 4:3. When a dead person becomes alive again, is is said the soul returns again, 1 Kings 17:22 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ). It is said of Jacob, whose sunken vital energy revived when he found his son again, that his spirit was quickened, Gen. 45:27 (וַתְּחִי רוּחַ). On the contrary, of one who is preserved in life it is said, חָיְתָה נֶפֶשׁ, [the soul lives] Jer. 38:17–20. When God rescues one from the jaws of death, it is said, Ps. 30:4, “Thou hast brought up my soul out of Sheol;” comp. Ps. 16:10 (5).—Man perceives and thinks by virtue of the spirit which animates him (Job 32:8; Prov. 20:27); wherefore it is said in 1 Kings 10:5, when the Queen of Sheba’s comprehension was brought to a stand, that “there was no spirit in her more” (לֹא־הָיָה בָהּ עוֹד רוּחַ); but the p 151 perceiving and thinking subject itself is the נֶפֶש (comp. § 71). The impulse to act proceeds from the רוּחִ, Ex. 35:21; hence one who rules himself is a משֵׁל בְּרוּחוֹ, Prov. 16:32. But the acting subject is not the רוּחַ, but the נֶפֶשׁ; the soul is the subject which sins, Ezek. 18:4, etc. Love and attachment are of course a thing of the soul, Gen. 34:3 (וִתִּדְבַּק נַפְשׁוֹ) and ver. 8 (חָשְׁקָה נַפְשׁוֹ); and so in Cant. 5:6, the words of the beloved, נַפְשִׁי יָצְאָה, cannot be explained, “I was out of my senses” (as De Wette thinks), but the bride feels as if her very personality had gone forth from her to follow and seek her beloved. In many cases, indeed, נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ stand indifferently, according as the matter is looked upon—that is, to use Hofmann’s words (Schriftbeweis, i. p. 296), according as “the personality is named after its special individual life, or after the living power which forms the condition of its special character.” Thus it may be said on the one hand, “Why is thy spirit so stubborn?” (מַה־זֶּה רוּחֲךָ סָרָה), 1 Kings 21:5; on the other hand, “Why are thou so bowed down, O my soul?” (מַה־תּשְׁתּוחֲחִי נַפְשׁי), Ps. 42:12. Of impatience it may be said, “The soul is short” (וַתִּקְצַר נֶפֶשׁ), Num. 21:4, and “shortness of the spirit” (קֹצֶר רוּחַ), Ex. 6:9; compare Job 21:4. Trouble of heart is “bitterness of the spirit” (מֹרַת רוּחַ), Gen. 26:35; and of the soul (הֵמַר נַפְשִׁי), Job 27:2, it is said וַתּפָֽעֶם רוּחוֹ, Gen. 41:8, and נַפְשִׁי נִבְהֲלָה מְאֹד, Ps. 6:4. Compare with this in particular the climax in Isa. 26:9 (6). From all this it is clear that the Old Testament does not teach a trichotomy of the human being in the sense of body, soul, and spirit, as being originally three co-ordinate elements of man; rather the whole man is included in the בָּשָׂר and נֶפֶשׁ (body and soul), which spring from the union of the רוּחַ with matter, Ps. 84:3, Isa. 10:18; comp. Ps. 16:9. The רוּחַ forms in part the substance of the soul individualized in it, and in part, after the soul is established, the power and endowments which flow into it and can be withdrawn from it (7), (8). -Oehler, G. F., & Day, G. E. (1883). Theology of the Old Testament (pp. 149–152). Funk & Wagnalls.

TL; DR. In summary, body and spirit become one being, which is the soul. Spirit and soul are not interchangeable, and body is not a prison for the soul.

 

[Alfred Persson]

TL; DR. In summary, body and spirit become one being, which is the soul. Spirit and soul are not interchangeable, and body is not a prison for the soul.

Not accurate. The Man as a living being is body, soul, and spirit. Take away any one of these, and the being is not what God intended, he is less.

The dichotomy is body and soul, with the spirit he receives from God at conception, which returns to God when the man dies. To preserve all three is to preserve what God intended man to be undiminished, a "living being".

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 KJV)

As both Cullmann and Oehler point out, this isn't a Greek concept of soul being set free from the body. The soul without the body is a shadow of its former self.

Christian's desire to be clothed with their heavenly body, the supernatural resurrection Body like Jesus Christ was raised in:

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4 KJV)

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (1 Jn. 3:2 NKJ)

Bodiless existence of the soul is what happens in sheol. Our goal is to be in the kingdom of God, fully clothed in "spiritual (supernatural) body":

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1 Cor. 15:40-49 KJV)

A spiritual body is a body infused with God's Spirit, eternal life. Its not a spirit without a body:

ROT 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:--

BYZ 1 Corinthians 15:44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. Ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστιν σῶμα πνευματικόν.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Not accurate. The Man as a living being is body, soul, and spirit. Take away any one of these, and the being is not what God intended, it is less. As both Cullmann and Oehler point out, this isn't a Greek concept of soul being set free from the body. The soul without the body is a shadow of its former self.

Then what is this cry of the martyrs? How are these souls crying out for vengeance? We could be among them in a few years as tyranny is rising globally. "The soul without the body is a shadow of its former self" is an odd saying, usually it's other way around, the body without the soul is the soul is a shadow of its former self, that's what we say to describe someone who's lost their former glory, their fighting spirit, their ambition, drive, passion, now they're just an empty vessel with no meaning or purpose in life. Some of them become addicts, seeking comfort in the bottom of a bottle or the tip of a needle. You look into their eyes, you won't see any soul.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Then what is this cry of the martyrs? How are these souls crying out for vengeance? We could be among them in a few years as tyranny is rising globally. "The soul without the body is a shadow of its former self" is an odd saying, usually it's other way around, the body without the soul is the soul is a shadow of its former self, that's what we say to describe someone who's lost their former glory, their fighting spirit, their ambition, drive, passion, now they're just an empty vessel with no meaning or purpose in life. Some of them become addicts, seeking comfort in the bottom of a bottle or the tip of a needle. You look into their eyes, you won't see any soul.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

Then what is this cry of the martyrs? How are these souls crying out for vengeance? We could be among them in a few years as tyranny is rising globally. "The soul without the body is a shadow of its former self" is an odd saying, usually it's other way around, the body without the soul is the soul is a shadow of its former self, that's what we say to describe someone who's lost their former glory, their fighting spirit, their ambition, drive, passion, now they're just an empty vessel with no meaning or purpose in life. Some of them become addicts, seeking comfort in the bottom of a bottle or the tip of a needle. You look into their eyes, you won't see any soul.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11)

They are still waiting for the 1st resurrection. They aren't happy at all, they are crying for justice.

God intended us to be body, soul infused with His Spirit. That's what scripture promises. I cited them.

New Jerusalem, an actual city, descends unto the earth. Its a real city with God dwelling with His people. Its not a ghost town.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Rev. 21:2-4 KJV)

You are arguing for a Greek concept of life without a body, which isn't what scripture teaches at all.

I provided the references proving that. Ignoring them is odd for someone claiming to believe in only God's truth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

They are still waiting for the 1st resurrection. They aren't happy at all, they are crying for justice.

God intended us to be body, soul infused with His Spirit. That's what scripture promises. I cited them.

Yes, Paul taught this in 2 Cor. 5:1-5. We're not expected to be disembodied souls trapped in Hades forever, we'll be resurrected when the Lord returns. But just because the souls of the martyrs are not happy doesn't mean they are a "shadow of its former self." What Scripture promises is consciousness of the soul based on Rev. 6:9-11 instead of the so called "soul sleep".

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

You are arguing for a Greek concept of life without a body, which isn't what scripture teaches at all.

I provided the references proving that. Ignoring them is odd for someone claiming to believe in only God's truth.

Where did I say that? I never said that there could be a life without a body, in fact I refuted that. Even the host of heaven have celestial bodies. What I described in my previous post is a common understanding, that a body without a soul is a life without meaning. In other word, nihilism.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, Paul taught this in 2 Cor. 5:1-5. We're not expected to be disembodied souls trapped in Hades forever, we'll be resurrected when the Lord returns. But just because the souls of the martyrs are not happy doesn't mean they are a "shadow of its former self." What Scripture promises is consciousness of the soul based on Rev. 6:9-11 instead of the so called "soul sleep".

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Where did I say that? I never said that there could be a life without a body, in fact I refuted that. Even the host of heaven have celestial bodies. What I described in my previous post is a common understanding, that a body without a soul is a life without meaning. In other word, nihilism.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

Christians don't go to hades, they go into the presence of the LORD in Third heaven. The altar of God is not in Hades Sheol.

Those souls were "under the altar", they don't like being unclothed so they are given white robes to wear until the first resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6)

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:9-11 KJV)

While it is correct to say "Hades/Sheol" is the "unseen realm" and even third heaven (because its unseen) is a level of existence in Sheol/hades---scripture separates "Abraham's bosom" (paradise) from Hades; the rich man had to look up to see Lazarus:

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:23 KJV)

The two are separated by a great gulf no one can cross. So hades (lower section) is for the unsaved, not the saved.

Abraham's bosom existed BEFORE Christ was raised from the dead, righteous OT saints were always "gathered to their people" to third heaven when they died.

Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen. 25:8 KJV)

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Lk. 16:22 KJV)

Technically speaking, "third heaven" is in "sheol/Hades" because that is the realm of the unseen. Think of Sheol/Hades as a dimension of the unseen having compartments, the lower regions for the unsaved, upper for the saved. In that manner scripture distinguishes heaven from hell, spatially they are different places, but all in the same "unseen" dimension.


Therefore, Christians don't look to enter Hades when they die, they enter the presence of their LORD in heaven:

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2 Cor. 5:6-9 KJV)

Christ our LORD is spatially in heaven, not hades.

 

[Barney Bright]

You cited Cullmann for support, but I bolded and colored red the wording that disagrees with you. Cullmann says the soul needs the body to enjoy life, without a body the soul becomes a "shade". Therefore, contrary to your position, Cullmann sees the body as separate from the soul, just as Christ did when He refers to BOTH.[/QUOTE\]

I don't agree with everything Professor Cullman said in his book. I did read what you had in bold print and was letter colored. Those are some of the things that I disagreed with in his book. Like Professor Cullman saying the physical body and soul were separate, and that without a body the soul still exists as a shade. I disagree with him on what he said there because I see nothing in Genesis 2:7 that shows a living soul was given to the physical human body. This is what seems to me he's saying and I don't see that in Genesis 2:7. But Professor Cullman and others reasoning this way, the only way I can get Genesis 2:7 to agree with what he's, and others are saying is to erase the word "became" from Genesis 2:7 and replace it with the word, "gave," I'm not going to do that, but it does seem the only way to get Genesis 2:7 to agree with what he and others are saying. At Matthew 10:28 Professor Cullman wasn't saying the soul is immortal, because that would have contradicted what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28. Jesus clearly taught that God can destroy both body and soul, so Professor Cullman or anyone else saying Jesus was teaching the immortality of the soul, I'm going to disagree with. But I honestly don' t think Professor Cullman was teaching immortality of the soul. There's way too many scriptures that say the soul is mortal and can be destroyed. At Matthew 10:28 the inherent idea is destroying in death, not in eternal suffering. At Matthew 7:13, 14, Jesus contrasts the “narrow road leading off into life” with the “broad road leading off into destruction.” scholar John R. W. Stott comments: “It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed.” With good reason he reaches the conclusion: “If to kill is to deprive the body of life, hell would seem to be the deprivation of both physical and spiritual life, that is, an extinction of being.”—Essentials, Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue. pages 315-16.
So Matthew 10:28 ‘does not seek to highlight or teach the immortality of the soul, but underlines the fact that God alone can destroy not both body and soul in Gehenna. Also as mentioned before, The New Bible Commentary(Second Edition, page 786) defines Gehenna as “a description of ‘the second death. So just as the lake of fire is permanent death, so is Gehenna permanent death.
Death has never been the same as life. Life= you have consciousness, you can think, feel, hear, talk, taste, or smell. Death= no consciousness, you can't think, feel, hear, talk, taste, or smell. There are scholars that agree that when we humans die the only hope we have to exist again as living souls or living persons is the resurrection hope. Resurrection means raising up or standing up from the dead back to the living. Also regarding the lake of fire, I know that the book of Revelation was told to John by an angel in signs. So I believe a lot of the book of Revelations is symbolic. Like the lake of fire I believe it's symbolic, because of what's written down in scripture about the lake if fire. At Revelation 20:14 it says that Death and the Grave(Hades) is thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second Death. But I honestly don't believe that Death, which is a condition, is literally being thrown into a literal lake of fire, which is the second Death, meaning its also a condition. How can Death, which is neither a person an animal or object, but instead is a condition, be literally thrown into a literal lake of fire, which is actually a condition too(second Death). I don't see how that's possible, the scriptures say that the lake of fire is the second death. So how can a condition (Death) be literally thrown into another condition (second Death) which is what the lake of fire is, according to scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I see nothing in Genesis 2:7 that shows a living soul was given to the physical human body.

The literal translation of Gen. 2:7 is "man became a living soul". That's also how the ancient translations render it, Aramaic, Septuagint, Latin:

KJV Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)




LXE Genesis 2:7 And God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.

LXT Genesis 2:7 καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν



"And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground. And He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul."-Leiden Peshitta English ChatGPT

ܘܓܒ̣ܠ ܡܪܝܐ ܐܠܗܐ ܠܐܕܡ ܥܦܪܐ ܡܢ ܐܕܡܬܐ. ܘܢܦ̣ܚ ܒܐ̈ܦܘܗܝ ܢܫܡܬܐ ܕܚ̈ܝܐ. ܘܗܘ̣ܐ ܐܕܡ ܠܢܦܫ ܚܝ̣ܐ.

Leiden Peshitta Gen. 2:7


DRA Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 DRA)

VUL Genesis 2:7 formavit igitur Dominus Deus hominem de limo terrae et inspiravit in faciem eius spiraculum vitae et factus est homo in animam viventem (Gen. 2:7 VUL)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't agree with everything Professor Cullman said in his book. I did read what you had in bold print and was letter colored. Those are some of the things that I disagreed with in his book. Like Professor Cullman saying the physical body and soul were separate, and that without a body the soul still exists as a shade. I disagree with him on what he said there because I see nothing in Genesis 2:7 that shows a living soul was given to the physical human body. This is what seems to me he's saying and I don't see that in Genesis 2:7. But Professor Cullman and others reasoning this way, the only way I can get Genesis 2:7 to agree with what he's, and others are saying is to erase the word "became" from Genesis 2:7 and replace it with the word, "gave," I'm not going to do that, but it does seem the only way to get Genesis 2:7 to agree with what he and others are saying. At Matthew 10:28 Professor Cullman wasn't saying the soul is immortal, because that would have contradicted what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28. Jesus clearly taught that God can destroy both body and soul, so Professor Cullman or anyone else saying Jesus was teaching the immortality of the soul, I'm going to disagree with. But I honestly don' t think Professor Cullman was teaching immortality of the soul. There's way too many scriptures that say the soul is mortal and can be destroyed. At Matthew 10:28 the inherent idea is destroying in death, not in eternal suffering. At Matthew 7:13, 14, Jesus contrasts the “narrow road leading off into life” with the “broad road leading off into destruction.” scholar John R. W. Stott comments: “It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed.” With good reason he reaches the conclusion: “If to kill is to deprive the body of life, hell would seem to be the deprivation of both physical and spiritual life, that is, an extinction of being.”—Essentials, Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue. pages 315-16.
So Matthew 10:28 ‘does not seek to highlight or teach the immortality of the soul, but underlines the fact that God alone can destroy not both body and soul in Gehenna. Also as mentioned before, The New Bible Commentary(Second Edition, page 786) defines Gehenna as “a description of ‘the second death. So just as the lake of fire is permanent death, so is Gehenna permanent death.
Death has never been the same as life. Life= you have consciousness, you can think, feel, hear, talk, taste, or smell. Death= no consciousness, you can't think, feel, hear, talk, taste, or smell. There are scholars that agree that when we humans die the only hope we have to exist again as living souls or living persons is the resurrection hope. Resurrection means raising up or standing up from the dead back to the living. Also regarding the lake of fire, I know that the book of Revelation was told to John by an angel in signs. So I believe a lot of the book of Revelations is symbolic. Like the lake of fire I believe it's symbolic, because of what's written down in scripture about the lake if fire. At Revelation 20:14 it says that Death and the Grave(Hades) is thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second Death. But I honestly don't believe that Death, which is a condition, is literally being thrown into a literal lake of fire, which is the second Death, meaning its also a condition. How can Death, which is neither a person an animal or object, but instead is a condition, be literally thrown into a literal lake of fire, which is actually a condition too(second Death). I don't see how that's possible, the scriptures say that the lake of fire is the second death. So how can a condition (Death) be literally thrown into another condition (second Death) which is what the lake of fire is, according to scripture.

What Cullmann says that you agree with is irrelevant. You attributed to him words he never said, to support an idea he pointedly disagrees with.

I sometimes cite scholarship whose exegesis agrees with my conclusion, but the scholars themselves reject for other reasons I don't agree with. When that happens I state why I don't agree with their rejection of the literal meaning of the text. For example, on my site I cite a scholar on Daniel 8:14


END NOTES
[1]
The usual translation of Dan. 8:14 “sanctuary will be cleansed” is chosen over a more literal and likely meaning, “will be vindicated” because translators refuse to allow Daniel is prophecy actually foretelling events. The vindication of the church’s faith is pictured in Revelation 15:1-8. It appears suddenly disconnected to the surrounding events. Chronologically, it 2,300 days after the beginning of the end time week, after everyone is raptured or gathered by Christ angels. Their faith in God now vindicated and celebrated in heaven.

Commentators reject the literal reading because:

will be purified. The Hebrew verb, weniṣdaq (the only occurrence of the niphal of ṣdq in the MT!) should mean “will be justified.” But this can hardly be said of the sanctuary. The underlying Aramaic was surely yidkê, “will be cleansed, purified,” which was corrupted into, or misread by the translator as yizkê, “will be victorious, justified.”- Hartman, L. F., &; Di Lella, A. A. (2008). The Book Of Daniel: A New Translation With Notes And Commentary On Chapters 1-9 (Vol. 23, p. 227). New Haven; London: Yale University Press.

It is NOT unhistorical the "Temple of God" prophetically in the End Time is the Church (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19. 2 Cor. 6:16. 2 Thess. 2:4. Eph. 2:21), then the literal meaning of the Church being vindicated for her faith in God could be what the text is literally referring to. Of course, reference to the Church, the vision of the Church would likely add to the reasons why these visions were "sealed" to Daniel, he couldn't understand them. End time events would unseal the words (Dan. 12:8-9).


So I explain why they are wrong, it isn't unhistorical to consider the Church as the Temple of God being vindicated, She trusted in God and He delivered, on time and under budget I might add.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't agree with everything Professor Cullman said in his book. ...

In post # 324 I cited Professor Oehler's exegesis of Gen. 2:7. Evidently you didn't read it.

Had you read it, you would understand how animals and man both have soul as soul originates in the flesh by the divine word of power. But man's soul is different, it contains portion of God's Spirit by divine inbreathing of life into it, animating it and together with dust of the earth, they constitute the "substance of the soul".

Man isn't flesh alone, he is "both body and soul" according to Jesus in Mathew 10:28. The Spirit of God animates, and when God's Spirit departs, what is left becomes weak, a shadow of itself.

You don't agree with that. But you haven't proved Professsor Oehler's exegesis wrong. Here is the relevant part you must "disprove":

Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. -Theology of the Old Testament, Gustav Oehler.

 

[Butch5]

The equivocation is evident in your exegesis of Ezekiel 18. You cite "the soul who sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:4) interpreting this to be cessation of existence upon physical death, ignoring this implies "the soul who does not sin shall NOT die":

But then you Equivocate, upon physical death righteous [soul] shall continue to live, and NOT die, but you interpret that as a "FUTURE LIFE" in God, "soul" then is no longer an entity that can live or die. That is equivocation:

4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife, Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully-- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD.
10 "If he begets a son who is a robber Or a shedder of blood, Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties, But has eaten on the mountains Or defiled his neighbor's wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy, Robbed by violence, Not restored the pledge, Lifted his eyes to the idols, Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase-- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him.
14 "If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone, Nor withheld a pledge, Nor robbed by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes-- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live!
18 "As for his father, Because he cruelly oppressed, Robbed his brother by violence, And did what is not good among his people, Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 "Yet you say,`Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
(Ezek. 18:4-24 NKJ)

Notice what you highlighted in red. It says he shall live. It doesn't say his soul shall live on after death.

Again, you're simply reading your (still unestablished premise) into the text.

Why are you even posting this passage? You don't believe it. You don't believe the soul that sins will die.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Notice what you highlighted in red. It says he shall live. It doesn't say his soul shall live on after death.

Again, you're simply reading your (still unestablished premise) into the text.

Why are you even posting this passage? You don't believe it. You don't believe the soul that sins will die.

Incorrect, the repentant will "save their soul alive" scripture declares. AND your objection is further disproved by the context: Both "soul" and "he shall surely live" are used like synonymous terms referring to the person:



27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.-Ezek. 18:27-28

Those who believe in Christ never die (John 11:26), those who do not believe die upon immediately upon death. The spirit animating their body and soul departs, returns to God who made it:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Eccl. 3:21 KJV)

Many interpret "the beast" as figurative for "the wicked", because the righteous go to God upon death, into the presence of the LORD to await the resurrection. The spirit animating the souls of the wicked depart upon physical death, and they begin dying, becoming "shades":

They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them. (Isa. 26:14 RSV)

They never rise back to life, no animating spirit will ever return to them. When they are resurrected and imprisoned in abominable resurrection carcasses that reek of corruption, corpses whose worm does not die out, neither body or soul has "animating spirit" in them to make them alive. They are "dead".

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

While it is correct to say the "outer darkness" is dark because all light from God is absent, there may be an oblique reference to the darkness the imprisoned soul experiences because dead corpses can't see.

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt. 22:12-14 KJV)

Unlike the TV show "the Walking Dead" these are bound hand and foot and cannot walk away from whatever garbage heap in Gehenna they are tossed onto, to burn in unquenchable fire. And they can only use their mouths to "weep and gnash" teeth.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Notice what you highlighted in red. It says he shall live. It doesn't say his soul shall live on after death.

Again, you're simply reading your (still unestablished premise) into the text.

Why are you even posting this passage? You don't believe it. You don't believe the soul that sins will die.

Answer this: Where in this text did Jesus say the wicked cease to exist:

43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
46 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; (Mk. 9:43-48 YLT)

What would be the point of worms not dying, or fire not being quenched, if those cast into Gehenna can't experience torment from those things?

AND why would anyone cut off their hand or foot, if upon death one ceases to exist? What would be the logic in that?

 

[Butch5]

Incorrect, the repentant will "save their soul alive" scripture declares. AND your objection is further disproved by the context: Both "soul" and "he shall surely live" are used like synonymous terms referring to the person:



27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.-Ezek. 18:27-28

Those who believe in Christ never die (John 11:26), those who do not believe die upon immediately upon death. The spirit animating their body and soul departs, returns to God who made it:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Eccl. 3:21 KJV)

Many interpret "the beast" as figurative for "the wicked", because the righteous go to God upon death, into the presence of the LORD to await the resurrection. The spirit animating the souls of the wicked depart upon physical death, and they begin dying, becoming "shades":

They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them. (Isa. 26:14 RSV)

They never rise back to life, no animating spirit will ever return to them. When they are resurrected and imprisoned in abominable resurrection carcasses that reek of corruption, corpses whose worm does not die out, neither body or soul has "animating spirit" in them to make them alive. They are "dead".

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

While it is correct to say the "outer darkness" is dark because all light from God is absent, there may be an oblique reference to the darkness the imprisoned soul experiences because dead corpses can't see.

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt. 22:12-14 KJV)

Unlike the TV show "the Walking Dead" these are bound hand and foot and cannot walk away from whatever garbage heap in Gehenna they are tossed onto, to burn in unquenchable fire. And they can only use their mouths to "weep and gnash" teeth.

Please establish your premise. Posting explanations based on a false premise don't prove anything.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Christians don't go to hades, they go into the presence of the LORD in Third heaven. The altar of God is not in Hades Sheol.

This is not true:

1. Christ himself went to Hades for at least two days - "For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27), what makes you think that we can be exempted? No servant is greater than his master.
2. The resurrection takes place right here on earth, if we were already in "third heaven", why would we fall back to earth?
3. In the story of the rich man and the beggar, they ended up in the two sides of the great gulf, that's where all the dead will go, the righteous go to Abraham's bosom, also known as paradise, the wicked go join the rich man. That's how the sheep and goat are separated.
4. In the sixth seal, dead martyrs are crying out for justice, and you admitted that they are not happy at all, does that sound like they are in third heaven to you?