Butch5
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The second death.
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Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?
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Butch5
Member
consider Jesus' words here.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. (Lk. 13:25-29 KJV)
electedbyhim
Member
Gotquestions.com
Consecrated Life
Member
Your characterization of the Second Death as being God's punishment does not comport to the well known. very popular, method of actually escaping punishment by people who commit suicide to escape prison, or other consequences they are facing.
You don't think that people who commit suicide to escape consequences do so believing they are delivering themselves to an even worse fate do you ?
Butch5
Member
No, but what punishment is worse than death? It is the ultimate punishment. What is the highest form of corporal punishment? It is death. The Scriptures are clear that the wages of sin is death. There is nothing in Scripture that says the punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment. That idea stems from a false premise. It comes from the "Immortal Soul" doctrine. Many Christians, wrongly believe that man is immortal by nature and will live on after the body dies. If this is the case, then man must spend eternity somewhere. The thinking is that it is either with God or without Him. Since Scripture says that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, the one who believes the Soul is Immortal is forced to hold that the punishment is eternal. Otherwise the man would get out. That's the idea behind Purgatory. The whole thing is based on the idea that an immortal soul has got to be somewhere.
The thing is, according to Scripture, the soul is not immortal. It ceases to exist at death and is brought back at the Resurrection where man is judged and the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire, the Second death. Thus they cease to exist again.
Somehow many Christians have gotten the idea that death is not punishment. Yet, as I've pointed out, it is the highest form of punishment that man can administer.
Butch5
Member
I avoid Gotquestions at all costs. I've found that site to be so full of error it's not worth investing time in it. This that you posted here is grabbing passages out of context and trying to support a doctrine. Jesus didn't speak of Hell. Hell is an English word. Jesus spoke of Hades and Gehenna, two very different places. Jesus quotes Isaiah 66, the fire that is not quenched, and He calls it Gehenna. Gehenna is a literal place. It is a valley just outside of Jerusalem. If you Google it you can see pictures of it. It's not some subterranean place of torment. It's a valley. In the OT it's called the Valley of the Son of Hinnom. It's also referred to as Tophet. If we go to Isaiah 66 and read the passage that Jesus is quoting from we find that in the fire that is not quenched what is burning is corpses. It's not the souls of the dead, it's not living spirit or souls. It's dead bodies. They are not being tormented because they are dead. The prophet Jeremiah also prophesied about this place. He said that one day this place would once again be made Holy to the Lord. Thus showing that it doesn't burn for eternity. As study of how the word Hades is used in Scripture will show that Hades is the grave.
Butch5
Member
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 20:4–6.
Butch5
Member
You're giving me dictionary definitions from the same people who translate aion as eternal. That's begging the question, a logical fallacy. Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostle all speak of the end of the aion. Something that ends, by definition cannot be eternal.
"The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. (Matt. 13:39 NKJ)
NKJ Matthew 13:49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
ples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
(Matt. 24:3 NKJ)
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (Heb. 9:26 NKJ)
If the aion (age) ends how is it eternal?
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:32 NKJ)
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (Heb. 6:5 NKJ)
Here Jesus and Paul speak of an aion (age) to come. Jesus speaks of this aion and the aion to come. How can there be this eternity and an eternity to come? If there is an eternity to come, then this present eternity must end. However, that's not possible because eternity, by definition, does not end. Thus, aion cannot mean eternity.
Consecrated Life
Member
So do you think that child molesters who kill themselves rather than face what will be done to them in prison , do so believing they are choosing a worse fate for themselves?
Why would they choose a worse fate for themselves ?
According to your theology these child molesters would be better off just going to prison .
Butch5
Member
You're trying to use subjective thoughts and feelings to justify what you're saying. Why don't all child molesters commit suicide rather than going to prison? Maybe it's because they think death is worse than prison. I'm sure there are a whole lot more child molesters that choose prison over suicide.
It's also fallacious to say "your theology". What I posted came from Scripture. Paul said, "the wages of sin is death." How many different ways can that be understood? I only see one. God said through the prophet Ezekiel, " the soul that sins shall die." How many different ways can that be understood? I only see one. In both cases the penalty for sin is death. God told Adam if he ate from the tree of Knowledge he would die. He ate. What happened? Did he suffer eternal torment, or did he die? We have death as the penalty for sin all through the Scriptures. There's not one statement in Scripture that says if someone sins they will suffer eternal conscious torment. That's kind of telling, isn't it?
Consecrated Life
Member
The question I asked was based on your assertion that nothing is worse than death as it relates to the growing popularity of suicide.
Child molesters are only one of multiple sub-groups of people killing themselves as a desirable alternative in record numbers these days.
There are just as many people just not wanting to go back to jail for other crimes choosing to escape punishment by the desirable alternative of death as well.
You ever heard of suicide by cop for instance:
Suicide by cop: what motivates those who choose this method - Gale
Preventing Suicide and Self-Harm in Jail | Vera Institute
Suicide is the leading cause of death in jails across the country. At a time when the public is paying closer attention to local jails and their primary ...
By the way I'm sure that just as many child molesters make the decision to escape prison by the better alternative of death after they have arrived behind bars and found out what their life is going to be .
Escape from prison by self-death being the number #1 cause of death behind bars:
How to Lower the High Level of Jail Suicides
Aug 17, 2022 ... In 2019, the suicide rate in jails was over two times that of the general public. Pathways for suicide: Structural jail conditions and people in ...With all these people choosing to escape punishment by self-death , my question , and the shear numbers of them, speaks directly to your false premise that death with no future consciousness is considered by one and all to be the worst possible outcome.
That is exactly what these people a hoping for.
Lay down in the grave pull the dirt up over their face and never be bothered again about the people they have robbed, raped , killed .
How is Annihilation by God & eternal unconsciousness not exactly the same method of escape from punishment these people have clearly chosen for themselves on earth ?
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Gehenna was used as a teaching tool for the disciples to visualize what the Lake of Fire is like, in Jewish cultural at the time, tht was the most horrible, frightening place they could think of. That literal place itself is not necessarily the final resting place for the wicked souls.
As for Hades, yes, that was the grave, all dead people go there, both the righteous and the wicked. Jesus personally went there for at least two days, it was like a depository of souls. It was unfortunate that these two concepts are mixed up and we end up with the word "hell" in most English translations, but that's not gotquestions.org's fault.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
To correctly in that one and only way you mentioned, a meta-analysis is necessary. Meta-analysis means "an objective examination of published data from many studies of the same research topic identified through a literature search." Quoting one or two verses to make a point often leads to wrong conclusions and wrong theologies because partial information leaves you with a distorted view. You need all verses pertaining to a certain subject to get a whole picture. On the subject of sin and death, there's one key verse that explains how exactly sin leads to death - not immediately, but rather accumulatively, in a growing process. Slowly but surely, gradually and then suddenly:
For each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14-15)
What you're missing about the eternal suffering is that the mortal body cannot suffer eternally, it simply returns to dust. What is subject to eternal torment is the resurrected body, that's the SECOND death, not the first.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2)
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15)
Butch5
Member
You're creating a straw man. I never said, " death with no future consciousness is considered by one and all to be the worst possible outcome." I said death is the highest form of punishment we have. Your argument here is nothing more than your opinion. Whether or not there are people who prefer death over prison has nothing to do with what the Scriptures say is the penalty for sin. As I said previously, you're using a subjective argument. In addition you've not addressed the clear statements that show death is the penalty for sin.
Butch5
Member
I've heard that claim before, but with no evidence. I find it interesting though that Gehenna would be the most horrible place they could imagine. People today can imagine much more horrible things. Are we somehow more mentally advanced than they were? What was so horrible about Gehenna that they couldn't imagine a worse place? You say that Gehenna wasn't necessarily the final resting place for wicked souls. My first question would be how do you define soul? My next question would be why does Isaiah tell us that the corpses of those from the battle of Armageddon will literally be burned there? Why did Jesus quote it as the place where the wicked would burn?
God said through Jeremiah,
For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. (Jer. 7:30-33 KJV)
Is God just talking here or is this real?
No, it's not their fault. However, they perpetuate the myth, thus leading, who knows how many, Christians into the same error.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Ancient Israelites burned their infants alive as sacrifice to Moloch, Gehenna is where they did it, you quoted the very scripture portion of God's condemnation on that. Besides, garbage, dead bodies and dead animals were literally being burned in that dump, what's wrong about using that as a teaching tool to visualize the Lake of Fire?
Spirit + Body, see Gen. 2:7. Soul is "living being".
Because maybe that's literally what would happen? That the casualties will be burned there? That massive satanic army in Rev. 19:19? That's the fulfillment of this scripture portion you quoted.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. (Rev. 19:17-21)
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Butch5
Member
Why assume I haven't looked at all of the passages or at least the majority of them? If I made a post with dozens of passages of Scripture, do you think anyone would read it? But, you side stepped the issue by talking about a meta analysis. I made the statement that all through the Scriptures the penalty for sin is death. If that's not the case then it should be easily established. I also made the statement that there is nothing in Scripture saying that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment. Again, a statement, that if incorrect, that should be easily established. Neither of these was addressed. Don't you think it's it kind of bazaar to argue that eternal torment is the penalty for sin when there is nothing suggesting such an idea in Scripture and then denying that death is the penalty for sin when we find it all through Scripture. Is this not simply a case of trying to force Scripture to fit theology?
There are few problems with this idea. The first is that everyone receives eternal life. If that's the case then the apostle John was wrong. he said,
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)
The default position in John's statement is to perish. However, there is given the ability to avoid this end by believing in Christ. Thus, gaining eternal life. John doesn't indicate that the default condition is to suffer eternal torment. It's to perish.
Likewise, the apostle Paul said,
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23 KJV)
Here in Paul's statement the default position is death. However, that can avoided through Christ. Through Christ one can receive the gift of God, eternal life. If it is as you say and the wicked suffer eternally in resurrected bodies then these two statements by John and Paul are simply wrong. One has to hold that John and Paul just missed it here.
However, there is another issue. In order to hold this position, one has to also show, from Scripture, where eternal life, the gift of God, is given to the wicked. From everything I see in Scripture only the believers receive the gift of God, the wicked do not.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
The only problem is that you're ignoring the biblical doctrine of resurrection, not just the righteous, but also the wicked. There's the "first resurrection" at the beginning of the millennial reign, then there's the second resurrection at the end of the millennial reign, and then there's the white throne judgement and the "second death" for the wicked, it's all in Rev. 20. Everlasting life means no seacond death for the righteous, and "perish" means perished from God, eternal separation from him and eternal suffering in the Lake of Fire.
Butch5
Member
Nothing is wrong about using it as a teaching tool. That's not the question. The question is did Jesus use it as a teaching tool or was He speaking literally? Given it's history and the prophecy about it why would one take figuratively?
Ok. What is the spirit?
Ok, you understand it literally. Jesus said to His disciples 'it was better to enter life maimed than to go into Gehenna where the fire is not quenched. He indicates that they could go into Gehenna. He didn't say a place life Gehenna. If it was a teaching tool it would seem Jesus would make clear that He's not talking about the literal Gehenna. I don't see a reason to take it figuratively.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
You've got it wrong. Eternal torment is the penalty for choosing darkness over light, choosing Satan over Jesus. The only sin can't be forgiven is rejection of God's forgiveness. Make no mistake, God sends nobody to hell, all who end up in the Lake of Fire end up in there willingly as they believe Satan is God and hell is heaven.
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter! (Is 5:20)