Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thought we were having a friendly conversation. I backed up everything with scripture, and unlike many professional (well paid) "babblers" claiming "thus saith the lord", my exegesis is already beginning to be seen in news. The two horned lamb, Britain and America are becoming the dual world power prophesied to unite under a "false prophet".

Everyday it seems America doesn't drop bombs on anyone, without Britain at her side.

Britain and America in Prophecy | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Britain and America in prophecy Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:11 NKJ) John alludes to the book of Daniel in Revelation 13:1-2, the "beast-Empire" rises 'from the sea of spiritism' just like in Daniel (Isa.

endtimenews.net

Star Wars in Daniel | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Star Wars in Daniel It grew so big it reached the army (06635 צָבָא tsaba’) of heaven, and it brought about the fall of some of the army (06635 צָבָא tsaba’) and some of the stars (03556 כּוֹכָב kowkab) to the ground, where it trampled them. (Dan. 8:10 NET) And I, Daniel, fainted and was

endtimenews.net

I backed up my every argument with Scripture as well, more so than you did. I don’t see the point of the conversation in a thread about annihilationism.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I backed up my every argument with Scripture as well, more so than you did. I don’t see the point of the conversation in a thread about annihilationism.

You cited a personified death as suffering in the lake of fire as proof against annihilationism. I objected to that.

Scripture does teach some of the wicked will be annihilated, exterminated completely:

They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed (08045 שָׁמַד shamad) them, And made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 NKJ)

08045 שָׁמַד shamad {shaw-mad'}
Meaning: 1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated 1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated 1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to annihilate, exterminate 1b2) to destroy


That some of the wicked are annihilated is implied in this symbolism of them becoming ashes:

You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 4:3 NKJ)

Gehenna is where body and soul are destroyed (Mt. 10:28).

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy (622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi) both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28 NKJ)


622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

The wicked are raised up in abominable flesh which reeking of corruption, worms. It is the instrument through which God punishes the soul imprisoned in it.

If the body becomes "ashes" because the fires of Gehenna consumed it, then the soul within it is also destroyed, "killed".

Eternal punishment is where the "worms die not" as in the case of those who stumble Christ's children:

42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' (Mk. 9:42-48 NKJ)

Undying worm = abominable resurrection body that exists forever, decaying with worms infesting it. That implies the imprisoned soul trapped within, is still being tormented, the wrath of an offended holy God communicated to the wicked soul trapped in the very body once misused for immoral pleasures.

Committing sins in the body that is part of the image of God and which God considers His Temple is very serious:

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? (1 Cor. 6:18-19 NKJ)

So annihilation does exist, for less than eternal sins.

The Bingo lady who went to church only to play bingo, but never to be saved by Christ, doesn't merit eternal torment...she will be annihilated by the fires of Gehenna, become ashes implying her soul no longer exists.

Souls are not immortal. They live in bodies. Outside of the body they become weak, shades of their former selves.

Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. (Isa. 14:9 RSV)

They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them. (Isa. 26:14 RSV)

Eventually they would cease to exist if left alone. But there is a resurrection, and all souls will be put in bodies appropriate to their situation.

Christians get immortal resurrection bodies like Christ was raised in:
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. (1 Cor. 15:42 NKJ)

the wicked get unclean bodies that cause them to feel shame and are abominable bodies reeking of corruption:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame (02781 חֶרְפָּה cherpah) and everlasting contempt (01860 דְּרָאוֹן dera'own). (Dan. 12:2 NKJ)

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (Gal. 6:8 NKJ)

Unlike the hideous bodies in the "Walking Dead" tv show, these bodies cannot walk. They are "corpses" "carcasses" piled in heaps burning like garbage in Gehenna, only able to weep and gnash teeth. No moving around to lessen the pain, the soul trapped within it screaming as loud as it can for the length of time determined on Judgment day, when they receive "their part" in the Lake of Fire.

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood (Rev. 22:14-15 RSV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You cited a personified death as suffering in the lake of fire as proof against annihilationism. I objected to that.

Scripture does teach some of the wicked will be annihilated, exterminated completely:

Scripture also teaches that the wicked will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2) and tormented forever (Matt. 25:46), how is that possible if the wicked are annihilated? Annihilationism not Scriptural, it’s not even scientific, for no matter or energy can be destroyed in a closed system, first law of thermodynamics.

 

[CherubRam]

The lake of fire may be a real place or a metaphor as scripture gives no literal location, but is very descriptive as a place of outer darkness and torment and being eternal as all those people including Satan, the beast and the false prophet that are cast into it will be remembered no more.

The duration of punishment for the one cast into the lake of fire is everlasting. Isaiah speaks of the everlasting burning of the fire that shall never be quenched and of the worm which shall never die (Isaiah 33:14; 66:24). David said that some would awake unto eternal life and others unto shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2). John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of the unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12; Mark 9:43). Paul the Apostle speaks of how the lost will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (II Thessalonians 1:9).

The Apostle John says that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day and night; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). Jesus said that the lake of fire is a furnace of fire in Matthew 13:41, 42 and outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.

The fact that the lake of fire is eternal is plain from the following verses where it is described as:
1. Everlasting fire.......................Matthew 25:41
2. Everlasting punishment...........Matthew 25:46
3. Eternal damnation..................Mark 3:29
4. Everlasting destruction.......... II Thessalonians 1:9
5. Everlasting contempt..............Daniel 12:2
6. Torment forever and ever.......Revelation 14:9-11
7. Blackness of darkness forever.....Jude 1:13
8. Vengeance of eternal life............Jude 1:7
9. Lake of fire--forever and ever......Revelation 20:10
10. Second death--forever..............Revelation 20:14
11. Elements melt, earth and works are burned up.......2Peter Chapter 3

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

Eternal "FIRE" means (Eternal Judgement)
The word (FIRE) is used as a parable to mean "judgement."

Lake of Fire Commentary | Christian Forum

Lake of Fire Commentary In regards to "Lake of Fire." Lake is parabolic of a body of people. Fire is parabolic of "Judgement."

christianforum.boards.net

 

[reddogs]

The second death.

Yes, I was looking through the scriptures and there is a good description of what happens...
2 Peter 3:7-12
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Here we see that Peter designates the day of judgment as the time, and the earth as the place for the perdition (destruction) of ungodly men. In verses 10-12, he describes the condition of the earth at that time. “ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ?”

This is the day of judgement at the Lake of Fire, everything that fire can consume is burned up, the destruction of 'ungodly men' is here.

 

[JLB]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Everlasting torment in the lake of fire.

• He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:9-12






JLB

 

[JLB]

This is the day of judgement at the Lake of Fire, everything that fire can consume is burned up, the destruction of 'ungodly men' is here.

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46

• Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

• And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

EVERLASTING FIRE, EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT.






JLB

 

[reddogs]

Well, its not a easy concept of what happens to the wicked when they perish in the lake of fire and cease to exist, but
here is my buddy Palehorse's clear explanation on this..
I felt it necessary to do this study for a variety of reasons; but the most important one, in my opinion, is dispelling the false belief of an ever-lasting hell which has turned more people away from the Bible (and Christianity) than probably any other singular topic. No one, not even me, would worship an unloving God that burned people in an ever-lasting torment for the ceaseless ages of eternity. The truth is that the Bible doesnt teach that and that concept flies in the face of the all-loving God we know Him to be; as such, denominations that teach this concept had better rethink their position not only for the sake of Biblical accuracy but also because this pagan teaching (which is rooted firmly in ancient Greek Hellenistic teachings) is causing the massive decay of the Christian church today.

The root of the problem here is the Biblical meaning of the words 'for ever', 'everlasting' and the various forms of 'unquenchable', i.e. 'not be quenched'. Most people, understandably so, misunderstand the Biblical concept of these terms. In the Bible these terms sometimes do and sometimes dont equate to our modern meaning of "forever". In today's usage these terms mean 'for the ceaseless ages of eternity' for the most part though not exclusively. For example:
A married couple: they tell each other "I'll love you forever" but we all know that people die. What they are truly saying is 'they love each other until death', right? This is a parallel to see how even in modern times "forever" doesnt necessarily mean the ceaseless age of eternity.

So, let's establish what the Bible writers concept of forever was:
Genesis 43:9 - I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:
Genesis 44:32 - For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.
This was pre-incarnate Jesus talking to the Father in regards to mans sin. Now, will Jesus bear the blame forever? No. (see Hebrews 9:28) The day will come when there is an end to sin. So the meaning here is clearly meant as until it is done.

Exodus 12:14 - And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:17 - And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 - And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
But we know that the feasts were done away with when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Exodus 12:14 is talking about the institution of the Passover; later Jesus became our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7). The key in this verse is the part that says by an ordinance. We know that the ordinances were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14); and there arent any ordinances in the 10 Commandments. So again we find that forever does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity as is commonly misunderstood.

Let's get some more examples:
Exodus 19:9 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
The question here is, how can the people believe thee for ever if they were mere mortals? They could not, of course, unless they were saved and would get ressurected at Christ's second coming. They died and the dead know not anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The meaning here is that they would believe for as long as they lived, not the ceaseless ages of eternity. Also, the thick cloud that could be seen by day (it was a fire from the sky at night) was no longer seen after Moses death. So, again, for ever does not equate to our modern understanding of forever.

Exodus 21:6 - Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Would it be possible for a servant or master to live forever? No. Is a man still a servant to another after death? No. This clearly means that the servant would be a servant for the rest of his life and not the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Exodus 27:21 - In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
Exodus 28:43 - And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
Did the earthly tabernacle and its ceremonies last forever? No. (see Col. 2:14) Again, we find the meaning of for ever to mean until it is done.

In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out; it will not last for the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Jeremiah 17:27 - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
We all know that Jerusalem is not still burning today; as such the fire that 'shall not be quenched' means that it cannot be put out UNTIL it has done God's purpose. No man can quench it; only God can. And God obviously did quench that fire else it would still be burning to this day...

 

[reddogs]

We find in the following verses the same concept:
Isaiah 1:28-31 - And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. 29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen. 30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. 31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
The key here is the last part of the last line: 'and none shall quench them.' This clearly means that no one will be able to quench the fire that burns the wicked. But just as we learned in Jeremiah 17:27 only God can quench a fire that He has started. God is consistent in His doings.
When we apply this to another example from Isaiah where he further talks of Christs second coming, we now understand it more clearly:
Isaiah 34:8-10 - For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance (this is when it happens not before) , and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Now we see that 'from generation to generation' means 'the generations of the wicked', i.e. generations of wicked poeple, not that the fire will last from generation to generation. The only way for that to mean otherwise would mean that people would be procreating in hell which is an absurd notion. That would then further mean that babies born in hell would burn for no reason. That idea goes totally against what we know of Gods character, does it not? Also in this verse we find another "not be quenched" phrase which by now is clearly understood to mean "unstoppable until it has served its purpose".

Lets look at Jonahs example:
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars were about me FOR EVER: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
The book of Matthew says Jonah was in the belly of the whale THREE DAYS; not for ever. Here we see the same thing that for ever can mean a limited amount of time. Though I must say, to Jonah those 3 days must have seemed like forever. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this meant "10 generations."


These examples should be ample to illustrate that 'for ever' according to Biblical teachings does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity. The same holds true for other phrases such as "not be quenched" and "everlasting". Now that weve firmly established the true scriptural concept involved here lets move on to the question of hell-fire.

 

[reddogs]

Question: If the wicked burn in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity then wouldnt they also have eternal life?
The wicked don't get eternal life, the Bible doesnt teach that:
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 5:21 - That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Proverbs 10:25 - As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
This verse is an example of everlasting actually meaning our modern usage of the word. Notice that the wicked become no more. If they burned in hell forever then this verse (and many others) should be removed from the Bible because they would totally contradict the concept that has been already been well established.
Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
This verse goes back to showing that 'everlasting' doesnt mean our modern usage. Notice the phrase 'devouring fire'; how can a fire devour something that continues to exist? Simple, it cannot. The fire DOES devour the sinners/wicked and they are no more.

When the Bible says the wicked will burn 'for ever' it does NOT necessarily mean the ceaseless ages of eternity; it simply means 'until it is done/accomplished'. To say those in hell will burn forever totally uproots the following verses and many more:
Isaiah 47: 9-14 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
Quick note - stubble burns fairly quickly.

Malachi 4:1-3 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a 'eternally burning' hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is not eternal life while burning in an eternal hell; the wages of sin is death. Hell-fire is the means used to bring about that death.

Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 112:10 - The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is US that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us.

Psalm 104:35 - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Aha, the wicked will become 'no more'; a verse that says it plainly.

Ezekiel 28:18, 19 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Another verse that says it plainly; they (the wicked) will be no more. They cant be burning forever AND be 'no more' at the same time. Obviously it is the result that will be eternal and forever.

How does this all come together?
The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble:
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Conclusion:
Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term 'for ever' or 'not be quenched' or 'unquenchable' can also mean 'until it is done/accomplished' and not always the 'ceaseless ages of eternity' as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconcieved notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches its just that simple.

 

[Butch5]

Why, then...did Jesus say the corpses 'WEEP AND GNASH TEETH" if the wicked soul is not trapped within it?

41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 13:41-42 NKJ)

Gehenna affects body and soul, not body only:

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 YLT)

He wasn't talking about dead people. They can't weep and gnash their teeth.

Gehenna affects body and soul, correct. However, that not eternal. It affects the soul until that person dies. Bodied don't usually last very long in fire so that would likely be a very short time

 

[Butch5]

Nonetheless Is. 66:24 states it will not go out. Again, Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

No, it doesn't. I said it cannot be put out.

It does matter, because since the final aion doesn't end, then the forment in the Lake of Fire doesn't end, this much is confirmed in Is. 66:22-24. The English word "eon" originated from this word, and it's defined as "an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time".

The English word is irrelevant. The Greek word aion is used of short periods of time.

No, that's why Gehenna was used to symbolize the Lake of Fire, not the other way around.

You've got it backwards. Revelation is the book of symbolism not Isaiah.

Then why does the torment of worm and fire never stop in Is. 66:24? Besides, death itself is cast into the Lake of Fire to burn forever, Rev. 20:14, therefore second death is meant to be forever. That's not my opinion or my interpretation, that's what the Scripture plainly states.

No, it's not. It's a mistranslation as I've stated repeatedly. If Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the Apostles all speak of the end of the aion, then an aion can end. Thus there is no way that it can mean eternity. Instead of trying to mistranslate the word people should find a way to understand it so that it fits everywhere it's used.

 

[Butch5]

Nope.

Denial isn't an argument

Christ's parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus teaches exactly this. (Luke 16:19-31)

The souls of the martyrs beneath the altar in heaven crying out for justice teach this, too. (Revelation 6:9-11)

The appearance of Moses and Elijah with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration also suggests the survival of the soul beyond death of the body. (Matthew 17:1-8)

Actually, none of them teach it. It's supposed based on the erroneous "Immortal Soul" doctrine. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable about the coming judgment of Jerusalem and the Jewish leadership.

The souls beneath the alter is a book of symbolism of future events. Firstly, the are souls. Souls require a body. Secondly, they are under the altar. How exactly are living people under the alter? Thirdly, John is seeing Heaven and Earth simultaneously. So, you'd have to prove that these soul don't have bodies in order to use this passage.

Moses and Elijah with Christ on the mountain is a vision of the coming Kingdom. Notice they appeared with Jesus "in Glory". In glory is used of the Resurrection.

Souls surviving the death of the body isn't something contrary to Scripture but taught by it. See above.

It absolutely is. Show us a literal passage of Scripture of souls without bodies.

??? Here's what I concluded from the list of verses I gave you on the separation that characterizes death:

"Each of these passages in which Jesus is teaching on the punishment of hell clearly indicate separation as a feature of that punishment. So, yes, I can "prove" from Scripture that the "second death" in hell entails separation from God and is, I believe, the end, not of being, but of all well-being, as in the case of the Rich Man in Christ's parable in Luke 16."

So, where in this quotation do I write, "Separation is the definition of death"? Nowhere.

Nice try, but that's not what you said. You said,

"The "second death" speaks, not of annihilation, but of separation from God and the resulting utter loss of all well-being."

Thus my statement that the definition of the second death is not separation from God. You contrasted separation from God with annihilation. In the context of this thread annihilation is the definition of death.

Again, where did I make an assertion about the definition of death being separation? And again, nowhere. You're arguing against a Strawman version of my statements.

Post 17
"The "second death" speaks, not of annihilation, but of separation from God and the resulting utter loss of all well-being."

Yes, but you were particular about the second day being "just like the first." My point was that they weren't "just like" each other, as you claimed.

I said it has to be the same thing. I didn't say they had to be identical. A blue car and a red car are both cars. Obviously they are not identical. Physical loss of life and torment are not the same thing. Thus torment cannot be the second death.

This is Begging the Question. I don't grant the truth of the premise that you just assume is true in this statement, which is that the soul can't survive the death of the body. You have not at all demonstrated - to my satisfaction, at least - any such thing. So, no, there is no "thus" that you have established properly.

Sorry, you find logical fallacies in my posts. It's not begging the question. Just because you don't accept the premise doesn't make it wrong.

Yes, and? This verse doesn't say anything about what the soul is not, it doesn't limit what the soul is; it simply establishes by what means God invested Adam with a soul. It is reading into the verse what is not there to say that the "living soul" is only animating divine "breath" coupled to a physical body.

On the contrary. It's taking the passage at face value. if anyone is reading into the passage it would be the one who speaks of God investing Adam with a soul. The passage says nothing about God investing Adam with a soul. It says that the man, created from dust, "Became" a living soul after God animated it with His breath. There is nothing here about God putting a soul in Adam.
We can also that this is how the translators of the New King James understands the passage.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ge 2:7.

It also limits what the soul is unless one can show other Scripture that gives more detail

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says,

28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here, Jesus plainly implied that it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul. A man may kill the body of another, but he cannot harm his soul. Only God can kill both the body and the soul in hell. If, though, there is nothing that survives the death of the body, no soul existing beyond the body's decease, how can God kill both body and soul in hell? Obviously, Jesus knew that the soul and body were not utterly interdependent such that there could be no soul apart from the body. Instead, he implied in the verse above that the soul and body are distinct from one another.

Or maybe this passage could be understood differently. What is the passage talking about? Why does Jesus say what He said?

 

[Butch5]

In Acts 7:59 we read,

59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"

No one reading this verse would take Stephen to be calling on the Lord to receive his "animating breath," his "life force," that would not survive the death of his body. This makes no sense, obviously. There is nothing for God to receive if there is no immaterial part of the person called Stephen that endures beyond physical death. Someone entirely unaware of the no-soul-beyond-death view of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult would certainly not understand Stephen to be asking God to receive nothing. No, a natural, straightforward reading of Stephen's prayer leads directly to the conclusion that he thought his spirit would go on at his physical death to be with God.

Someone with a Greek Philosophical presupposition might conclude that. However, Paul who was there wouldn't have concluded that. One has to wonder why it is that the Sadducees, Pharisees and Scribes, who had God's word for centuries didn't believe that man was alive after the body died. How come we only find that idea after we see pagan influences? We see this idea when the Essenes we influenced by Babylonia culture and then again when the Gospel went to the Gentiles. Paul tells the Corinthians that if there is no resurrection then their dead believers had already perished. How can he said that if they were alive somewhere? Obviously he couldn't.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:12–18.

Notice, Paul doesn't tell the Corinthians that those dead Christians are in Heaven or with Jesus or with God or in limbo somewhere. He says apart from the Resurrection, they've perished. They're gone.

Stephen simply gave up his breath and died, just as Jesus did on the cross. Father, receive my breath.

Why should I "flip it around"? Aion in the case of Matthew 25:46 clearly does not mean merely "an age," as I explained. Since, aion and aionios both can mean eternal or everlasting, as they do when applied to God and His various divine characteristics, and there is nothing in the parallel of Matthew 25:46 that requires restricting aion to "an age," the parallel actually resting on the eternality of both life and punishment, I don't see the slightest need to do as you suggest above.

You're reading your theology into the text rather than letting the text guide your theology. Earlier you mentioned Begging the Question. In order to avoid that here, can you provide Scripture that says God is eternal without using the word aion/aionios? If not, then your statement is Begging the Question

??? Why should I?

Because without evidence your statement is just conjecture.

Says who? As many expert translators of the Bible have shown, the word aion may be translated perfectly legitimately as "eternal," or "everlasting." Until you have established yourself their equal in translation and that, in fact, you understand better than they do how best to translate aion, I see no reason whatever to doubt their translation, or to accept yours.

This is an appeal to authority. I don't have to be their equal to see a mistake. Just like I don't have to be a mathematician to correct a child's homework. It can easily be seen that bias is driving their translation. Jesus, Paul, and the other Apostles all spoke of an aion ending. Something that ends is not eternal thus, the definition of aion cannot be eternal. To be intellectually honest we must figure out how an aion could be eternal without defining it as eternal, because it clearly cannot be defined as eternal.

Nope. I've already explained why this is entirely faulty reasoning and in contradiction to the Bible.

Well, this is only way to explain it so that it is harmonious with all of Scripture. As I've pointed out, to say that aion means eternal is simply wrong.

 

[Butch5]

One of the biggest issues I see with this doctrine is that it impugns God's character, and it seems to me Christians who hold it don't care. The doctrine call God a liar. I can't understand why Christians would support such an idea. God said through the prophet Ezekiel,
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eze 18:2–4.

God said the soul that sins shall die. However, the doctrine say no, that's not right. the soul that sins shall suffer eternal conscious torment. So, who's right, God or the doctrine?

The apostle Paul said,

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 6:23.

Paul said, the wages of sin is death. The doctrine say, no that's not right. The wages of sin is eternal conscious torment.

The apostle John said,

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:16.

John tells us that God sent His Son so that the believers wouldn't perish. The doctrine says, no, that's not right. God sent His Son so that the believers wouldn't suffer eternal conscious torment.

My question to all of you who hold the ETC doctrine is, how is it that you know more about the penalty for sin thn the apostles, John and Paul and even most of all more than God Himself, the one who created the penalty?

 

[electedbyhim]

I avoid Gotquestions at all costs. I've found that site to be so full of error it's not worth investing time in it. This that you posted here is grabbing passages out of context and trying to support a doctrine. Jesus didn't speak of Hell. Hell is an English word. Jesus spoke of Hades and Gehenna, two very different places. Jesus quotes Isaiah 66, the fire that is not quenched, and He calls it Gehenna. Gehenna is a literal place. It is a valley just outside of Jerusalem. If you Google it you can see pictures of it. It's not some subterranean place of torment. It's a valley. In the OT it's called the Valley of the Son of Hinnom. It's also referred to as Tophet. If we go to Isaiah 66 and read the passage that Jesus is quoting from we find that in the fire that is not quenched what is burning is corpses. It's not the souls of the dead, it's not living spirit or souls. It's dead bodies. They are not being tormented because they are dead. The prophet Jeremiah also prophesied about this place. He said that one day this place would once again be made Holy to the Lord. Thus showing that it doesn't burn for eternity. As study of how the word Hades is used in Scripture will show that Hades is the grave.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eternal "FIRE" means (Eternal Judgement)
The word (FIRE) is used as a parable to mean "judgement."

Lake of Fire Commentary | Christian Forum

Lake of Fire Commentary In regards to "Lake of Fire." Lake is parabolic of a body of people. Fire is parabolic of "Judgement."

christianforum.boards.net

It's not eternal judgement as they will have already been judged then cast into the lake of fire, but it's that of eternal punishment in outer darkness.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[electedbyhim]

The nature of hell is a horrifying reality.

It is like being left outside in the dark forever (Matt. 8:12)
It is like a wandering star (Jude 13)
a waterless cloud (Jude 12)
a perpetually burning dump (Mark 9:43–48)
a bottomless pit (Rev. 20:1, 3)
a prison (1 Peter 3:19)
a place of anguish and regret (Luke 16:28)

To borrow the title of the book by Lewis, hell is the “great divorce”—an eternal separation from God (2 Thess. 1:7–9). There is, in biblical language, “a great gulf fixed” between hell and heaven (Luke 16:26) so that no one can pass from one side to the other.

Nowhere does the Bible describe it as a “torture chamber” where people are forced against their will to be tortured. This is a caricature created by unbelievers to justify their reaction that the God who sends people to hell is cruel. This does not mean that hell is not a place of torment. Jesus said it was (Luke 16:24). But unlike torture which is inflicted from without against one’s will, torment is self-inflicted.

Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics.

 

[CherubRam]

I think the word "parable" goes over peoples head. Varoom!

 

[Alfred Persson]

He wasn't talking about dead people. They can't weep and gnash their teeth.

Gehenna affects body and soul, correct. However, that not eternal. It affects the soul until that person dies. Bodied don't usually last very long in fire so that would likely be a very short time

Fundamentally, I agree. But in scripture the unsaved are "dead", only the saved are "alive". Notice these "corpses" continue to suffer the undying worm:

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24 NKJ)

Given the context of Mark 9:42-48, this implies these particular "dead" still suffer. There is no point in causing pain to their bodies only, if the souls within them have ceased to exist.

But we agree, Gehenna could burn up a body instantly, and the soul within it cease to exist instantly. So, punishment in Gehenna would be according to works. Those guilty of eternal sin, suffer eternally. Those not, suffer as long as their payment for sin requires.

Perhaps as in this analogy:

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
(Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)