Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?

[Free]

I agree, but "atonement" is being made right with God. Any person atoned for will be made into the image of Christ.

Do you agree?

With what part? "Atonement" means "to cover over;" which is to say that our sins are covered over and won't be counted against us. It's interesting that this is one of the things that the KJV doesn't get right, in Romans 5:11. The Greek word there is katallagē, which means "reconciliation," not atonement. The idea of the atonement is in the NT, but the word is never used. The idea comes from the OT sacrificial system, in various ways, but includes the shedding of innocent blood to atone for sin. That points to Christ's work, which is rather the whole point of it all.

Of course any person atoned for, having believed the gospel and been justified, will be made into the image of Christ, but that isn't the point. The point is, what makes the atonement efficacious?

Yes and again, if our Savior didn't put up with mankinds sin against Him.....you and I wouldn't be here.

Are we agreed?

It depends on what you mean by him not putting "up with mankinds sin against him." If he had called down "more than twelve legions of angels" to put an end to what was being done to him, then he wouldn't have died and we would be dead in our sins. If that's what you mean, then we are agreed.

If you mean simply that his putting "up with mankinds sin against him" is what gives us salvation, then, no, we are not agreed. That, again, just begs the question as to what makes the atonement efficacious.

Yes and again the alternative to not wanting to be spit on is close the mouth of the spitter forever.

Will you agree so far?

No. That doesn't even address what is said, which is: "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities."

The only meaning is that he was crucified and died "for our transgressions" and "for our iniquities." In other words, he took the punishment in our place. That is the consistent message of Scripture--foreshadowed in the OT sacrificial system right through to Revelation.

And again "the chastisement that brings us peace" is described in Hebrews chapters 5 and 12.

Where, exactly? "Chastisement" here means that he took on the sufferings to secure sinners' peace with God. The point is that Jesus's dying on the cross is what enable us to be reconciled to God.

And please understand God as a Man didn't need to learn or have faith because He's The Great I Am.

I don't understand what this has to do with the discussion.

Yes and again please be aware that the "iniquity His Father laid on Him is the iniquity sinners have for God.

It's not the anger God has for sinners.

It's the anger sinners have for God.

The utter hated of God is what some of the elite of society had and displayed it for our King.

It's much more than that. Iniquity is something "sinners have for God," it's something that is done against God. It is all sin. The verse is saying that God laid all our sins on Jesus on the cross. Again, this is all foreshadowed by the OT sacrificial system.

Now it makes sense to you and me as fathers who love our children. And you said you are a grandfather like me so we know how we would feel if someone attacked our family the way Jesus was.

You must have me confused with someone else as I am not a father.

Yes and again the OT prophets knew about their coming Kings' sufferings

inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 1Pet.1:11 ESV

Jesus praised His prophets and told His apostles they entered the prophets labor who came before them. We know about God from the Jewish authors so,

to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom.2:10

This is logical as long as someone thinks God is real and loves me in spite of my sin.....right grandpa?

How does this address what is said in that verse--"stricken for the transgression of my people"?

 

[Free]

Yes and again, partaking of the bread and wine in remembrance of His sacrifice is a confession that Jesus' followers will suffer for him as He did. So again,

For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 1Cor.11:29 ESV

Can we agree that all through The Bible our Father isn't happy with people who attacked the prophets and apostles and anyone who was persecuted for telling others what God wanted them to say?

And again, many people believed also.

You did not at all address what Jesus even said, namely, " for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Jesus himself is saying that his death will be for the forgiveness of sins.

And again our Lord showed how God is crushed and grieved even by the sin of one of His creation gone astray.

And again, what descent parent wouldn't be?

No, that is not what it is saying. I'm not sure how you could even come to that conclusion. It is saying that it was "the will of the LORD" for the Messiah to die for everyone else's sins. In other words, it was God's plan all along that his Son would bear our sins on the cross, taking our punishment in our place, so that we could be reconciled to God.

Yes and again on the Day of Atonement the only "guilt offered" (or admitted to) was that of the sinner confessing his wrongdoing over the Living Goat.

There is much more than the day of atonement:

Exo 29:14 But the flesh of the bull and its skin and its dung you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.

Exo 30:10 Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.”

Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Lev 1:5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

Lev 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the LORD's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Lev 4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.
...
Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
...
Lev 4:22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish,
Lev 4:24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
...
Lev 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
...
Lev 4:32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish
Lev 4:33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 5:5 when he realizes his guilt in any of these and confesses the sin he has committed,
Lev 5:6 he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
Lev 5:7 “But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
Lev 5:8 He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first the one for the sin offering. He shall wring its head from its neck but shall not sever it completely,
Lev 5:9 and he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:10 Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 5:11 “But if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for the sin that he has committed a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it and shall put no frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:12 And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take a handful of it as its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, on the LORD's food offerings; it is a sin offering.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

(All ESV.)

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;

a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Psa.51:17 ESV

See? Our sacrifice is a truly repentant heart for having sinned against God.

His sacrifice is putting up with the reasons why we are truly repentant.

Ok?

Not okay. That is taking that verse out of context. Nowhere are sins forgiven in the OT without sacrifice. David's point is that all other sacrifices are pointless without "a broken and contrite heart," but that doesn't negate the law's requirement for sacrifice for one's sins.

We must be truly repentant, but our salvation is secured solely by Jesus bearing our penalty on the cross, because God's law demanded sacrifice for sins. Again, that is why Heb 9:22 says, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (ESV)

 

[journeyman]

With what part? "Atonement" means "to cover over;" which is to say that our sins are covered over and won't be counted against us.

Covered over, blotted out, ect. I'm fine with you so far.

It's interesting that this is one of the things that the KJV doesn't get right, in Romans 5:11. The Greek word there is katallagē, which means "reconciliation," not atonement.

I'm fine with being reconciled.

The idea of the atonement is in the NT, but the word is never used.

I have no problem with being reconciled to God by being coved by His blood. I'm fine with it because of the Sacrifice you cite below.

The idea comes from the OT sacrificial system, in various ways, but includes the shedding of innocent blood to atone for sin.

Yes and please understand only God can forgive sin, so Jesus can forgive sin by His Innocent Life. His Innocent Blood,

its life, that is, its blood. Gen.9:4 ESV

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Lev.17:11 ESV

and it's really amazing how below.

That points to Christ's work, which is rather the whole point of it all.

I completely agree.

Of course any person atoned for, having believed the gospel and been justified, will be made into the image of Christ, but that isn't the point.

Yes it is the point, unless you disagree with the scripture above because,

In your struggle against sin[/b{ you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Heb.12:4 ESV

The point is, what makes the atonement efficacious?

He sprinkled His Blood on the ark containing the law and the mercy seat above it.

Why do you think covering laws that condemn sinners by His blood means anything other than how God gives sinners time to repent for sinning against Him?

 

[journeyman]

It depends on what you mean by him not putting "up with mankinds sin against him."

Any opposition to Him. Very simple.

If he had called down "more than twelve legions of angels" to put an end to what was being done to him, then he wouldn't have died and we would be dead in our sins. If that's what you mean, then we are agreed.

Yes exactly.

If you mean simply that his putting "up with mankinds sin against him" is what gives us salvation, then, no, we are not agreed.

Right. I believe God is longsuuering toward his enemies and

account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation 2Pet.3:15

despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of Godl eadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4

 

[journeyman]

No. That doesn't even address what is said, which is: "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities."The only meaning is that he was crucified and died "for our transgressions" and "for our iniquities." In other words, he took the punishment in our place.

No, the "only meaning" is that our Lord turned His wrath away from people committing horrible sins against Him.

 

[journeyman]

Where, exactly? "Chastisement" here means that he took on the sufferings to secure sinners' peace with God.

No it means Gods' correction teaches us not to live by an eye for an eye, but to defeat evil as iur Savior did, because all sons like The Son endure chastening.

The point is that Jesus's dying on the cross is what enable us to be reconciled to God.

And when He is finished enduring mankinds sins, He will Judge all.

 

[journeyman]

I don't understand what this has to do with the discussion.

I know, because you won't look at how Jesus was sinned against by lawbreakers.

It's much more than that. Iniquity is something "sinners have for God," it's something that is done against God. It is all sin.

Uh huh... and so,

Whoever hates me hates my Father also. Jn.15:23 ESV

 

[journeyman]

The verse is saying that God laid all our sins on Jesus on the cross.

The way mankind sins against ourFayher Himself, yes.

Again, this is all foreshadowed by the OT sacrificial system.

Yes and again the message is repent or perish.

You must have me confused with someone else as I am not a father.

That's ok. Even a single person can imagine the pain of seeing any loved one abused.

How does this address what is said in that verse--"stricken for the transgression of my people"?

It means Gods' Son was grueved by sin just as His Father is, but is still willing to forgive great sins against Him.

 

[journeyman]

You did not at all address what Jesus even said, namely, " for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Jesus himself is saying that his death will be for the forgiveness of sins.

Yes, meaning He exahusted, spent, gave every ounce of His life on earth withholding judgment from sinners who miserably abused Him.

...it was God's plan all along that his Son would bear our sins on the cross, taking our punishment in our place, so that we could be reconciled to God.

No, Gods' will is for His Son to show the love God has for those who hated Him,

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom.3:25

Appeased through His Forebearance.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? Rom.2:4 ESV

 

[journeyman]

You did not at all address what Jesus even said, namely, " for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Jesus himself is saying that his death will be for the forgiveness of sins.


No, that is not what it is saying. I'm not sure how you could even come to that conclusion. It is saying that it was "the will of the LORD" for the Messiah to die for everyone else's sins. In other words, it was God's plan all along that his Son would bear our sins on the cross, taking our punishment in our place, so that we could be reconciled to God.


There is much more than the day of atonement:

Exo 29:14 But the flesh of the bull and its skin and its dung you shall burn with fire outside the camp; it is a sin offering.

Exo 30:10 Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD.”

Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Lev 1:5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

Lev 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the LORD's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Lev 4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.
...
Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
...
Lev 4:22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish,
Lev 4:24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
...
Lev 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
...
Lev 4:32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish
Lev 4:33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev 5:5 when he realizes his guilt in any of these and confesses the sin he has committed,
Lev 5:6 he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
Lev 5:7 “But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring to the LORD as his compensation for the sin that he has committed two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
Lev 5:8 He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first the one for the sin offering. He shall wring its head from its neck but shall not sever it completely,
Lev 5:9 and he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:10 Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the rule. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 5:11 “But if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for the sin that he has committed a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it and shall put no frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:12 And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take a handful of it as its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, on the LORD's food offerings; it is a sin offering.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

(All ESV.)

Not okay. That is taking that verse out of context. Nowhere are sins forgiven in the OT without sacrifice. David's point is that all other sacrifices are pointless without "a broken and contrite heart," but that doesn't negate the law's requirement for sacrifice for one's sins.

We must be truly repentant, but our salvation is secured solely by Jesus bearing our penalty on the cross, because God's law demanded sacrifice for sins. Again, that is why Heb 9:22 says, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (ESV)

Enduing torment at the hands of sinners because He wanted people to know the love and forgiveness God offers sinners is His Sacrifice.

 

[reddogs]

Yes, meaning He exahusted, spent, gave every ounce of His life on earth withholding judgment from sinners who miserably abused Him.

No, Gods' will is for His Son to show the love God has for those who hated Him,

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom.3:25

Appeased through His Forebearance.

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? Rom.2:4 ESV

If, and a very important 'if', they repent otherwise they will perish..
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[journeyman]

If, and a very important 'if', they repent otherwise they will perish..
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Right. People like Mary and Joself were believers before the Son of God was born. So were Zachariah and Elizabeth, John the baprizeds' parents,

they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Lk.1:6

Look at Noahs' father and grandfather and so on. Those people taught their children about God because they walked with God.

You understand Jesus didn't need to save people who are already believers right?

 

[reddogs]

Right. People like Mary and Joself were believers before the Son of God was born. So were Zachariah and Elizabeth, John the baprizeds' parents,

they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Lk.1:6

Look at Noahs' father and grandfather and so on. Those people taught their children about God because they walked with God.

You understand Jesus didn't need to save people who are already believers right?

Yet, he had to tell some that they had to be born again, so He did have to help even the disciples understand the truth He brought.

 

[journeyman]

Yet, he had to tell some that they had to be born again, so He did have to help even the disciples understand the truth He brought.

Of course our Savior said everyone must be born of His Spirit.
Look at the misunderstanding of the Apostles even after they walked with Jesus throughout His ministry,

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Act.1:6

They still had no clue what the Messiah was about to do.

 

[JT4444]

Language is one of the reasons that Christianity is so divided. I don't believe that there will be unity until the Second Coming. The basic message of the Gospel, however, has not been obscured.

 

[reddogs]

Of course our Savior said everyone must be born of His Spirit.
Look at the misunderstanding of the Apostles even after they walked with Jesus throughout His ministry,

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Act.1:6

They still had no clue what the Messiah was about to do.

So people have to understand what they believe in, before they can truly choose.

 

[one2question]

Yet, he had to tell some that they had to be born again, so He did have to help even the disciples understand the truth He brought.

Just a quick question here. Wasn't the only person Jesus told they had to be born again, Nicodemus?

 

[journeyman]

So people have to understand what they believe in, before they can truly choose.

We all do that partially to begin with in every aspect of life that we have an interest in.
We are curious and want to learn about things. For instance, Judaism teaches that Jewish people have been chosen by God since Abraham and they believe God spoke to them through Prophets.

So the Prophets said their Messiah would teach everyone on earth about God so along comes Jesus and now we all know.

Should realizing we're sinners somehow give us a reason to be proud of ourselves, or rather makes us rightfully ashamed?
And guess what? If any rational person could look at what happened to Jesus without thinking, "What's being done to that man is sin", then that person doesn't properly understand the "longsuffering" of God,

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psa.116:15

Now how much more our Lord?

 

[reddogs]

Just a quick question here. Wasn't the only person Jesus told they had to be born again, Nicodemus?

We all have to be reborn with a new heart and mind or our old nature of sin will keep us in Satan's hold and we will perish with him..

 

[Runningman]

Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?​

The answer to that is yes, but it isn't a modern issue. It didn't taken long until people started making their own versions. The manuscripts the various versions are translated from don't say and/or teach the same things. With there being more than 100 different versions or translations of the Bible into English alone, it's possible to shop around until one finds the Bible that fits what their heart desires, and they will; I have been in very many a Bible discussion, only to watch people switch versions when their preferred Bible didn't help them anymore.

Through the centuries, the Bible has also been altered sometimes seemingly accidentally and sometimes deliberately. What we do know is that the Bible has changed considering there are different manuscripts that say different things. If one reads more than one version of the Bible it becomes apparent why it is estimated that there are more than 45,000 Christian denominations, sub-denominations, sects, and cults worldwide.