Faith or Works?

[Randy]

Yes faith is required but where does it say “faith alone”?

1 cor 13:2?
1 cor 13:13?
Phil 1:29?
James 2:24?

.
Lets address this from another perspective as I have already shown those who "believe" will be saved and those who are born of God will not continue to sin and God has reconciled things in earth and heaven to Himself through Jesus's blood on the cross and that forgiveness is received by faith which is obtained through the grace of God by the Holy Spirit according to the will of the Mind of God. They shall all be taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.

As Jesus testified those who hold to His teachings will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

Sanctification

We are sanctified by faith in Jesus not works.

Are you suggesting we are sanctified by something other then faith in Christ?

There is a profound change in those who truly believe. (repentance) and the fear of God so as to keep a clear conscience before God. Which has to happen through the grace of God by His Spirit.
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

 

[Randy]

I'm never sure what persons mean.

Are you saying that once you're saved, you never have to do anything for God?

I do want to state that no one on this forum, and I do believe I've already stated this to you,
believes that anyone is saved by works.

Please keep that in mind when you reply.

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Those that live by believing in Him show to be His Children as they walk in the light. So by their fruit they will be recognized.

But that doesn't take away from this which leaves no room for righteousness credited to us other then by Gods grace which is wholly received through faith.
First to Last by Faith alone doesn't mean one is free to sin or obtains any sanctification by deeds accomplished.
The punishment that due us was placed upon Jesus and by "His stripes" we are healed. Isaiah 53
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

A question to ponder. "Is faith a choice?"

I have believed as far back as my memory goes. Clearly both man and God were involved in this. I just believed and have held to that belief. Why?
Gods Holy Spirit I assume as I never needed signs or proof. I just knew with certainty Jesus was real and alive in heaven. Its grace.

 

[donadams]

My hope is in God not my works.

I think this sums it up for me.
My hope is in God's unfailing love and faithfulness expressed through Jesus Christ my Lord not my works.

We must imitate Christ’s virtues including obedience which involves volition/ works!

Narrow road leads to life not already in life! Not I’m already saved now I walk the narrow road.

 

[donadams]

.
Lets address this from another perspective as I have already shown those who "believe" will be saved and those who are born of God will not continue to sin and God has reconciled things in earth and heaven to Himself through Jesus's blood on the cross and that forgiveness is received by faith which is obtained through the grace of God by the Holy Spirit according to the will of the Mind of God. They shall all be taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.

As Jesus testified those who hold to His teachings will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

Sanctification

We are sanctified by faith in Jesus not works.

Are you suggesting we are sanctified by something other then faith in Christ?

There is a profound change in those who truly believe. (repentance) and the fear of God so as to keep a clear conscience before God. Which has to happen through the grace of God by His Spirit.
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

sound like “faith alone”?

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Butch5, filthy rags is not the condition of Israel. Isaiah is specifically talking about Israel's spiritual condition (their righteousness) here. Filthy rags is a simile of that condition. Do you believe that Isaiah's simile cannot extend beyond Israel? Please explain why not. Is our righteousness any better than Israel's? Of course not.

"Rapunzel, Rapunzel, let down your hair, so that I may climb thy golden stair.” Grimm's fairytale

Because "golden" is used here doesn't mean it is exclusive, and I cannot use it elsewhere. If I was writing about a coming recession, and I said, "The golden stairs of corporate America may soon lose its luster." This is a fair usage for the same metaphor as in Rapunzel.

By using a simile, or metaphor, (simile in this example) Isaiah uses a common familiar example (filthy rags) to convey uncommon or transcendent truth (the spiritual state of Israel). Filthy rags is also a simile that we can use to describe humanity's condition prior to salvation. It is not exclusive to Israel.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Unclean and clean are used as similes and metaphors throughout Scripture to describe unbelievers and believers. "Filthiness of the flesh and spirit" is akin to "filthy rags."

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with it. I used the simile to represent the human condition prior to salvation. Isaiah uses it to describe Israel's spiritual condition prior to the coming Messiah. As such, Isaiah 64:6 is fairly used.

The post you quoted does not refer to Abraham Butch5. But I will address the subject. We agree that Jesus was not in him as He is you and me. (Technically though, Jesus was in Abraham. Jesus is a descendant of Abraham. That puts an interesting spin on the topic, doesn't it?)

As to Abraham, the faith that Abraham needed to believe God, came from God, or Ephesians 2:8-9 is not true.
Abraham is acting on his faith in God through his obedience to God. This is imputed to him as righteousness. (We know Abraham made it. The place of waiting for those pre Messiah believers was called Abraham's bosom by Jesus. Luke 16:22)

As believers, we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The same righteousness that Abraham received is what we received when we believe. Abraham believed in the Messiah to come. We believe in the Messiah that came. Same person.
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

PS: Thank You wondering for the reply button tip. You get a big old hug for that.

 

[Randy]

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

sound like “faith alone”?

Does it also mean their NOT sanctified by faith in Christ?

It is by the "Spirit" in us that we overcome the weakness of the flesh.
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit a of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

 

[Randy]

We must imitate Christ’s virtues including obedience which involves volition/ works!

Narrow road leads to life not already in life! Not I’m already saved now I walk the narrow road.

Those that believe and are born of God have overcome the world.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Even the likes of Hitler and Ghangis Khan knew how to do "good works"
So says the Lord God.

Mat 7:11
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"

Good works are indeed good.
By they are what they are .

 

[Josef]

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

sound like “faith alone”?

Hey All,
Do unbelievers watch and pray donadams? Believers do. The disciples were already believers except for Judas. (who was not with them at the time.)
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Randy]

At the very most good works is a sign that a persons faith is genuine as apposed to giving lip service to Jesus yet having hearts that are far from Him as testified to ones misdeeds.

I think this is the context James is speaking of when his witness of the faith he proclaims is shown by what he does not just what he states.

However James's righteousness would be credited to him from first to last by faith not his deeds.

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
Do unbelievers watch and pray donadams? Believers do. The disciples were already believers except for Judas. (who was not with them at the time.)
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Religion says do!

Christianity says done!

There is nothing we can do???
Really?


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 1:45
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7

Doer of the word

James 1:22-23

1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21

Things we must do:

Matt 5:8
Matt 7:14 narrow road leads to life
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him
Lk 1:4 be instructed
Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 Jn 3:22 ez 36:25 baptism
2 thes 1:8 obedience


Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19

Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16

Receive Christ: Jn 1:12
Put on Christ: gal 3:27

Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13


1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The end (not the beginning) of faith is salvation!

 

[donadams]

Does it also mean their NOT sanctified by faith in Christ?

It is by the "Spirit" in us that we overcome the weakness of the flesh.
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit a of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Sanctified by grace received in baptism and the sacraments

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!

 

[donadams]

Those that believe and are born of God have overcome the world.

Mk 16:16 sound like “Faith alone “?

 

[Randy]

Mk 16:16 sound like “Faith alone “?

Whoever does not believe is condemned. Its seems the importance is faith not the water baptism.
We can show saved apart from water baptism but not apart from faith.
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

I'm not going to argue against water baptism.

I would also state Jesus is not bound by water baptism.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

They were baptized but didn't receive the Spirit at that baptism.
But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you mean "persons"?

I meant any person who posts as you do.
And by that I intend that it's never very clear what you mean.

A spirit filled person will live as one who believes in Jesus. That's not doing things for God but walking in love which has a obedience context not work context.

What do you mean that "it's not doing things for God"?
How is obedience different from works?

What are we supposed to obey that is not works?
Anything we do for God is obedience to Him and it's us doing works in His Kingdom.

Colossians 3:23
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord...
Matthew 5:16 Jesus....
16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yet this is how God chose to "forgive sin". Col 1:20
So the focus is on what do you do to have your "sins" forgiven? I believe repentance was shown as a good start.
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

What I'm speaking of comes AFTER repentance.
Before repentance nothing is require of a person since they are not saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not fear of serving God. They used fear to control people.

You mean the church used fear to control people?

I remember Catholic priests speaking about hell a lot.
But so do some members here.

And I've come to think that, maybe, this is what some need to hear in order to save their souls.
Not sure. You might have an opinion.

 

[Butch5]

You mean the church used fear to control people?

I remember Catholic priests speaking about hell a lot.
But so do some members here.

And I've come to think that, maybe, this is what some need to hear in order to save their souls.
Not sure. You might have an opinion.

Yeah, the church used fear to control the masses. That may be where some of these doctrines came from. The idea of hell as place of torment was probably one of those doctrines.

 

[journeyman]

Yeah, the church used fear to control the masses. That may be where some of these doctrines came from. The idea of hell as place of torment was probably one of those doctrines.

Butch5
I agree with you. I think when Jesus said,

No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: Jn.6:44

He meant people who have learned by hearing the scriptures speak of Gods' goodness and mercy in forgiving sins and welcoming us into His Family were drawn to Jesus because Jesus lived His Life (???) that way.. Sure He did, but He still does and always has.
I think we could say our King lives a life of never ending mercy towards sinners.
At least towards sinners who know they have nothing to offer God except a prayer of forgivness,

The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit.
You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God. Psa.51:17 NLT

King David wrote that. In Acts 13:22, Paul tells us what God thought of David (1Sam.13:14.)

 

[GodsGrace]

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Those that live by believing in Him show to be His Children as they walk in the light. So by their fruit they will be recognized.

By their fruit they will be recognized....
OK, this I can agree with.
It's what the NT teaches.

But that doesn't take away from this which leaves no room for righteousness credited to us other then by Gods grace which is wholly received through faith.

What's so wrong if some righteousness is credited to me?
What does righteousness mean to you?
It only means being right with God.
If I follow Jesus and follow His teachings, I will be righteous.

Proverbs 21:21
21He who pursues righteousness and loyalty
Finds life, righteousness and honor.
1 Timothy 6:11
11But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.
Psalm 112:6
6For he will never be shaken;
The righteous will be remembered forever.

James 3:18
18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.


It's OK to be righteous. This is what God wants from you. To be right with God.

First to Last by Faith alone doesn't mean one is free to sin or obtains any sanctification by deeds accomplished.

But this is the problem as I see it Randy...the way you speak makes it sound as if it's OK to do anything becaus
se God expects nothing from us because we're "saved".

We ARE sanctified by the deeds we do.
What do these words mean to you?
Righteous
Sanctified

What does sanctified mean?
Doesn't it mean to be set aside for service to God?

Then we have to ask,,,,what service would that be?

The punishment that due us was placed upon Jesus and by "His stripes" we are healed. Isaiah 53
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Agreed. Romans 1:19....
Righteousness is never achieved by works alone without faith.
Or by faith alone without works.

A question to ponder. "Is faith a choice?"

I have believed as far back as my memory goes. Clearly both man and God were involved in this. I just believed and have held to that belief. Why?
Gods Holy Spirit I assume as I never needed signs or proof. I just knew with certainty Jesus was real and alive in heaven. Its grace.

If we read Ephesians 2:8.... we find that everything is a gift from God: Salvation, grace and faith.
You're right that both man and God are involved....alone we can do nothing.
And is faith a choice?
Yes. It's a choice we make to DESIRE faith.
And God gives it to us because He is a good father and will not give a stone when bread is required.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, the church used fear to control the masses. That may be where some of these doctrines came from. The idea of hell as place of torment was probably one of those doctrines.

Hmmm. I don't think so.
I don't believe hell is a pleasant place and any place where God is not will be hell.
Just imagine the world we live in if God did not exist; it would be hell because of the absence of the good.

However, Jesus did speak of a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Where do you suppose that is?