What do Rosicrucians believe?
Was Luther a Rosicrucian?
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Was Luther a Rosicrucian?
Perhaps like 1 Jn 5:7 these ain’t sacred scripture either?
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I could understand how God can be with or in a man, not how a mere man can be in God!
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepards as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.
2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21
3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awakings in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15
Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.
Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20
3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
Isaiah 14:7
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the governmentshall be upon his shoulder: and hisname shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Dan 7:13-14
. . In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a
son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never
be destroyed.
● Phil 2:9-11 . . God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Blessed Trinity!
Isaiah 14:7
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the governmentshall be upon his shoulder: and hisname shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Dan 7:13-14
. . In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a
son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never
be destroyed.
● Phil 2:9-11 . . God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Blessed Trinity!
st_worm2
2024 Supporter
Hi Don, the earliest authentically Rosicrucianism writings come from the 17th century. Luther was born in the late 15th Century and, although he lived a relatively long life for someone who so many in power were trying to murder, he didn't live that long
As far as what Rosicrucians believe: The Rosicrucianism Order is syncretistic, meaning that it borrows ideas and beliefs from various other religions in an attempt to unify them under a central theme—wisdom about life after death has been preserved through the ages and is revealed only to the secret brotherhood (the Rosicrucians). There are strongly occultic teachings in Rosicrucianism, including ESP, clairvoyance, and spiritism. This goes right along with the secretive nature of Rosicrucianism because these activities are the playground of Satan and his demons, and Satan always shuns the light.
Regarding the principle Christian doctrines found in the Bible, the Rosicrucians believe the following:
Jesus Christ: According to Rosicrucianism, He was born of Gentile parents, did not die on the cross, did not ascend to heaven, and retired to the monastery in Carmel to carry on secret missions with His apostles.
Salvation: Rosicrucianism denies that a person must trust Christ as the only Savior.
Their system of salvation is one of ~self-effort~, their motto being “TRY.”
Finally, the secretive nature of Rosicrucianism is in direct contrast with the true faith, Christianity, which seeks to shout the message of Jesus Christ from the roof tops, as the Bible exhorts us to do.
If you'd care to read the rest of the article, go here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Rosicrucianism.html
--David
Last edited:
Do read the post I was replying to.
That part about not dying on the cross, Luther also rejected the holy sacrifice of Christ!Hi Don, the earliest authentically Rosicrucianism writings come from the 17th century. Luther was born in the late 15th Century and, although he lived a relatively long life for someone who so many in power were trying to murder, he didn't live that long
As far as what Rosicrucians believe: The Rosicrucianism Order is syncretistic, meaning that it borrows ideas and beliefs from various other religions in an attempt to unify them under a central theme—wisdom about life after death has been preserved through the ages and is revealed only to the secret brotherhood (the Rosicrucians). There are strongly occultic teachings in Rosicrucianism, including ESP, clairvoyance, and spiritism. This goes right along with the secretive nature of Rosicrucianism because these activities are the playground of Satan and his demons, and Satan always shuns the light.
Regarding the principle Christian doctrines found in the Bible, the Rosicrucians believe the following:
Jesus Christ: According to Rosicrucianism, He was born of Gentile parents, did not die on the cross, did not ascend to heaven, and retired to the monastery in Carmel to carry on secret missions with His apostles.
Salvation: Rosicrucianism denies that a person must trust Christ as the only Savior.
Their system of salvation is one of ~self-effort~, their motto being “TRY.”
Finally, the secretive nature of Rosicrucianism is in direct contrast with the true faith, Christianity, which seeks to shout the message of Jesus Christ from the roof tops, as the Bible exhorts us to do.
If you'd care to read the rest of the article, go here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Rosicrucianism.html
--David
Trinitarians and non-trinitarians will never agree!
The just (the trinitarians) shall live by faith!
And by obedience to Jesus Christ in His apostolic church that has authority to bind Christians on earth to believe all that Christ has revealed and the apostolic church teaches! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:17-18 Matt 28:19
Being led into all truth by the spirit of truth! Jn 16:13
For those who believe no proof is necessary, for the unbelievers no proof will suffice!
st_worm2
2024 Supporter
Hello again Don, I'm confused by your statement. Are you saying of Luther that he did not believe that Christ was crucified? If so, what reason(s)/evidence do you have for believing that?
Thanks
--David
Just as He says the cross alone, not the eternal sacrifice of Christ!Hello again Don, I'm confused by your statement. Are you saying of Luther that he did not believe that Christ was crucified? If so, what reason(s)/evidence do you have for believing that?
Thanks
--David
Thks
st_worm2
2024 Supporter
Hmmm, you said (that Luther said) that Jesus didn't die on the Cross. You also mentioned that Luther rejected the "holy sacrifice" of Christ. Finally, you seem to be contrasting the Lord's death on the Cross with the "eternal sacrifice" of Christ
Please elaborate, because I don't understand the point or points that you are trying to make.
Thanks!
--David
p.s. - it would help to see what Luther actually said. Perhaps you could post a quote of two of his that shows us the problem that you are having with his theology. Thanks again
Hey All,
The effects of Jesus ' sacrifice are eternal. But the actual physical sacrifice ended before Jesus died. In fact, He said, "It is finished."
Don't Catholics teach that Jesus dying on the cross is enough to save a person? I know you include baptism, so I am not asking about that. But are you saying that more is necessary for salvation?
Because I am pretty sure the emphasis is that salvation is through Jesus alone. Jesus said that about Himself.
Also, a few posts up, Mr Adams, you wrote:
"That part about not dying on the cross, Luther also rejected the holy sacrifice of Christ!" Quote from donadams
I don't have the 95 treatises in front of me. Which one was that? What about Jesus' sacrifice did Luther reject?
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
for_his_glory said,
"Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Colossians 2:9 [/QUOTE\]
I know that there are those that believe John 1:1-14 is referring to Jesus as being God. But the first part of John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God." Since the first part of John 1:1 says the Word was with God, I don't see how the Word can be God. Because the first part of John 1:1 says, "the Word was with God," then to say the Word is God is contradicting the first part of John 1:1 that says the Word was with God. I don't believe that a person(The Word) who is “with” another person(the God) can at the same time be that person(the God) that the Word was with. I believe the Word is the only begotten Son of God. So I believe John 1:1, is saying, the only begotten Son if God(The Word) was with God in the beginning. So I believe John 1:1 being translated as, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god," is an accurate translation of John 1:1 even though there are those who disagree.
John 10:30, is often cited to support that Jesus and God are the same person. But Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us. Jesus wasn't praying that all his disciples would become a single entity. Obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.
At 1 Corinthians 3:6, 8, Paul says: “I planted, Apollos watered . . . He that plants and he that waters are one.” Paul did not mean that he and Apollos were two persons in one; he meant that they were unified in purpose. The Greek word that Paul used here for “one” (hen) is neuter, literally “one (thing),” indicating oneness in cooperation. It is the same word that Jesus used at John 10:30 to describe his relationship with his Father. It is also the same word that Jesus used at John 17:21, 22. So when he used the word “one” (hen) in these cases, he was talking about unity of thought and purpose.
Regarding John 10:30, John Calvin (who was a Trinitarian) said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”
Right in the context of the verses after John 10:30, Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: “Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (John 10:31-36, NE) No, Jesus claimed that he was, not God the Son, but the Son of God.
At Colossians 2:9 the Greek word that some Bibles translates as Godhead is, "theotes." When it comes to this Greek word, "theotes" people who believe in the Trinity will translate the Greek word theotes with words like Deity,” “Divinity” or “Godhead” and so attribute personality to them, and those who don't believe in the Trinity will translate the Greek word theotes as “Divine Nature,” “divine quality,” “Godship,” and have them denote qualities.
That the Greek word "theotes" being translated as "divine nature" is perfectly ok is seen from what Greek authorities have to say about it. Parkhurst’s A Greek and English Lexicon (1845) defines the greek word theotes as “Deity, godhead, divine nature” (page 264). Note the definition “divine nature” as well as “Godhead.”
Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, in its new ninth edition, completed in 1940 and reprinted in 1948, Volume I, defines the Greek word theotes as, “divinity, divine nature,” and then cites as an example Colossians 2:9.
Translating the Greek word theotes as divine quality instead of Godhead at Colossians 2:9 is fully justified to show that Christ has in him all the fullness, not of God himself, the Deity, or the Godhead, but of the divine quality dwelling bodily, and this in behalf of the spiritual body of Christ, so that this body of Christ’s followers is possessed of a fullness by means of him: “It is in [Christ] that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. And so you [Christians] are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.”—Col. 2:9, 10.
So I disagree these scriptures are referring Jesus to be God.
"Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Colossians 2:9 [/QUOTE\]
I know that there are those that believe John 1:1-14 is referring to Jesus as being God. But the first part of John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God." Since the first part of John 1:1 says the Word was with God, I don't see how the Word can be God. Because the first part of John 1:1 says, "the Word was with God," then to say the Word is God is contradicting the first part of John 1:1 that says the Word was with God. I don't believe that a person(The Word) who is “with” another person(the God) can at the same time be that person(the God) that the Word was with. I believe the Word is the only begotten Son of God. So I believe John 1:1, is saying, the only begotten Son if God(The Word) was with God in the beginning. So I believe John 1:1 being translated as, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god," is an accurate translation of John 1:1 even though there are those who disagree.
John 10:30, is often cited to support that Jesus and God are the same person. But Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being “one” with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us. Jesus wasn't praying that all his disciples would become a single entity. Obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.
At 1 Corinthians 3:6, 8, Paul says: “I planted, Apollos watered . . . He that plants and he that waters are one.” Paul did not mean that he and Apollos were two persons in one; he meant that they were unified in purpose. The Greek word that Paul used here for “one” (hen) is neuter, literally “one (thing),” indicating oneness in cooperation. It is the same word that Jesus used at John 10:30 to describe his relationship with his Father. It is also the same word that Jesus used at John 17:21, 22. So when he used the word “one” (hen) in these cases, he was talking about unity of thought and purpose.
Regarding John 10:30, John Calvin (who was a Trinitarian) said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”
Right in the context of the verses after John 10:30, Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: “Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (John 10:31-36, NE) No, Jesus claimed that he was, not God the Son, but the Son of God.
At Colossians 2:9 the Greek word that some Bibles translates as Godhead is, "theotes." When it comes to this Greek word, "theotes" people who believe in the Trinity will translate the Greek word theotes with words like Deity,” “Divinity” or “Godhead” and so attribute personality to them, and those who don't believe in the Trinity will translate the Greek word theotes as “Divine Nature,” “divine quality,” “Godship,” and have them denote qualities.
That the Greek word "theotes" being translated as "divine nature" is perfectly ok is seen from what Greek authorities have to say about it. Parkhurst’s A Greek and English Lexicon (1845) defines the greek word theotes as “Deity, godhead, divine nature” (page 264). Note the definition “divine nature” as well as “Godhead.”
Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, in its new ninth edition, completed in 1940 and reprinted in 1948, Volume I, defines the Greek word theotes as, “divinity, divine nature,” and then cites as an example Colossians 2:9.
Translating the Greek word theotes as divine quality instead of Godhead at Colossians 2:9 is fully justified to show that Christ has in him all the fullness, not of God himself, the Deity, or the Godhead, but of the divine quality dwelling bodily, and this in behalf of the spiritual body of Christ, so that this body of Christ’s followers is possessed of a fullness by means of him: “It is in [Christ] that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. And so you [Christians] are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.”—Col. 2:9, 10.
So I disagree these scriptures are referring Jesus to be God.
Hmmm, you said (that Luther said) that Jesus didn't die on the Cross. You also mentioned that Luther rejected the "holy sacrifice" of Christ. Finally, you seem to be contrasting the Lord's death on the Cross with the "eternal sacrifice" of Christ
Yes that Jesus died on the crossHmmm, you said (that Luther said) that Jesus didn't die on the Cross. You also mentioned that Luther rejected the "holy sacrifice" of Christ. Finally, you seem to be contrasting the Lord's death on the Cross with the "eternal sacrifice" of Christ
Please elaborate, because I don't understand the point or points that you are trying to make.
Thanks!
--David
p.s. - it would help to see what Luther actually said. Perhaps you could post a quote of two of his that shows us the problem that you are having with his theology. Thanks again
But then just an empty cross, not Christ and Him crucified!
Gal 3:1
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Heb 7:17
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
The office of a priest is sacrifice.
Christ is eternal priest and has an eternal sacrifice.
Luther: Meaning the idea that the Mass is a sacrifice.
“This is such an abomination that I don’t believe it could be sufficiently punished on earth if it rained pure fire from heaven. The blasphemy is so great that it must simply wait for eternal hell fire.”
Thanks
1st no “it is finished” does not refer to His work of redemption, that continues in His church, but refers to the Passover sacrifice, they are the words the “high priest” must say at the consummation of the Passover.
2nd the merits of His passion and death (blood) are Applied to our souls in baptism.
3rd yes only one savior and one sacrifice.
4th Luther rejected the eternal sacrifice of Christ in His apostolic church.
Thks
“AND”
God And Jesus Christ:
Does not imply Jesus is not God.
Unity of the Father and the Son.
The Father is in the son; and the
Son is in the father.
Dogma: divinely revealed truth; taught by the apostolic church.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Apostles Creed
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord…
1 Jn 1:1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1 Jn 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
God And Jesus Christ:
Does not imply Jesus is not God.
Unity of the Father and the Son.
The Father is in the son; and the
Son is in the father.
Dogma: divinely revealed truth; taught by the apostolic church.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Apostles Creed
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord…
1 Jn 1:1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1 Jn 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
for_his_glory said Hebrews 1:8, 9 refers Jesus as being God. But the weight of the evidence indicates that it is YHWH God.
However believers of the Trinity believe that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God at Hebrews 1:8. I don't believe this to be correct.
First, we have to note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed at Hebrews 1:8 is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.
Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God so I don't believe the writer of Hebrews thought that Jesus was Almighty God.
Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that Elohim,(God]) in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”
So I disagree that Hebrews 1:8,9 refers Jesus as being Almighty God.
for_his_glory said that 1 John 5:20 refers to Jesus being God.
1 John 5:20 says, "But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.
Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (houtos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. They assert that Jesus is “the true God and life everlasting.” I believe this interpretation, however, is in conflict with the rest of the Scriptures. And many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun houtos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.” So, the apostle John had in mind Jesus Christ Father. German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [houtos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”
A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Houtos]: as a climax to 1 John 5 [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21 1Jo 5:21).”
So I don't agree that 1 John 5:20 refers to Jesus as being God.
In 1 John 5:7,8 the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one” do not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts. So the most modern Bible translations omit those words, the Bible edition by the Roman Catholic Episcopal Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine putting the words in brackets along with an explanatory footnote, as follows: “The Holy See reserves to itself the right to pass finally on the origin of the present reading.”
The oldest Greek manuscript of the Christian Scriptures is, in the judgment of many, the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, written in the first half of the fourth century. In our own copy of this Greek manuscript as edited by Cardinal Angelus Maius in 1859, he inserted the Greek words into the Manuscript copy but added a sign of a footnote at the end of the preceding verse. The footnote is in Latin and, translated, reads:
From here on in the most ancient Vatican codex, which we reproduce in this edition, the reading is as follows: “For there are three that give testimony, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are for one. If the testimony” etc. there is therefore lacking the celebrated testimony of John concerning the divine three persons, which fact was already long known to critics.
However believers of the Trinity believe that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God at Hebrews 1:8. I don't believe this to be correct.
First, we have to note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed at Hebrews 1:8 is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.
Secondly, it should be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God so I don't believe the writer of Hebrews thought that Jesus was Almighty God.
Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that Elohim,(God]) in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”
So I disagree that Hebrews 1:8,9 refers Jesus as being Almighty God.
for_his_glory said that 1 John 5:20 refers to Jesus being God.
1 John 5:20 says, "But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.
Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (houtos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. They assert that Jesus is “the true God and life everlasting.” I believe this interpretation, however, is in conflict with the rest of the Scriptures. And many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun houtos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.” So, the apostle John had in mind Jesus Christ Father. German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [houtos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”
A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Houtos]: as a climax to 1 John 5 [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21 1Jo 5:21).”
So I don't agree that 1 John 5:20 refers to Jesus as being God.
In 1 John 5:7,8 the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one” do not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts. So the most modern Bible translations omit those words, the Bible edition by the Roman Catholic Episcopal Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine putting the words in brackets along with an explanatory footnote, as follows: “The Holy See reserves to itself the right to pass finally on the origin of the present reading.”
The oldest Greek manuscript of the Christian Scriptures is, in the judgment of many, the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, written in the first half of the fourth century. In our own copy of this Greek manuscript as edited by Cardinal Angelus Maius in 1859, he inserted the Greek words into the Manuscript copy but added a sign of a footnote at the end of the preceding verse. The footnote is in Latin and, translated, reads:
From here on in the most ancient Vatican codex, which we reproduce in this edition, the reading is as follows: “For there are three that give testimony, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are for one. If the testimony” etc. there is therefore lacking the celebrated testimony of John concerning the divine three persons, which fact was already long known to critics.
Hey All,
BB1956, you are teaching Jehovah's Witnesses 101.
Let's deal with John 1:1.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The concept of a plural singular definition of God is not new to John. It exists in the first chapter of Genesis.
Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The plural singular is in the last chapter of Revelation.
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(One throne, for the Father and Son. You have a whole other problem with Revelation.
We will save that for later.)
So you are not just fighting John 1:1. You are fighting all of Scripture. Because in the very next verses John places Jesus "in the beginning," using those special words, so there is no misunderstanding what he means.
John 1:2-3 The same (The Word) was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him (John personifies The Word); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Then John tells us The Word (Him) made all things. John tells us that Jesus is the voice of creation. You cannot get away from this by adding a word to the text. (Which in itself is an admission of knowing the truth, and lying to suppress the truth.)
You really have a problem that adding an "a" won't fix.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Ain't no mistakin that!
The Word, who was God, the same that was in the beginning with God, that all things were made by, was made flesh.
Regarding John 10, the Jews response to Jesus' claim tells us what Jesus meant.
What was the penalty for proclaiming to be the Messiah?
Leviticus 24:13-16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
You cannot twist this by deflection to another passage. (Also part of JW 101)
Deal with the verses as written. The Jews did the right thing for dealing with a blasphemer. But Jesus was the Messiah.
Regarding one God, we agree. There is one God.
Within the one God are there different and distinct personalities. Each is unique unto itself, yet collectively function as one God. We are not asked to explain it. We are to, by faith, believe it. We can illustrate the concept this way.
One x 1 x I = 1 or One or I.
All of the ones are equal to each other, and unified in purpose. But they are different in form and function.
So the concept of the Trinity, while not completely understand, can be proven sound mathematically.
By the way what is zero divided by zero? 0÷0=?
Mathematically it is considered undefined.
This is where secular science blocks the truth because it cannot admit the possibility.
The general rule is any number divided by itself equals one.
If you allow the same general rule for 0÷0, you get 1.
So mathematically, from nothing, something is a possibility.
This allows for creation to occur.
Hmm, the Trinity and creation, math is awesome!
Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Sounds like Christ not the Father.