Loving the Lord, not the world

[Angel]

Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

I have just learned how to do this! I've been prey to the Devil's trickery BUT NO MORE! God is amazing! Thank you for the Scripture!

 

[Angel]

I believe that the renewing of the mind is a process done over time.

I agree.

2 Timothy 1:7 says: "For God did not give us a spirit of timidity (of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear), but [He has given us a spirit] of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control."

I used to feel rejected by God because the verse didn't instantly apply to me. I had to learn that it is indeed a process, one you faithfully seek after for.. God has been there for me, and time as has passed,my belief in this verse and seeing the evidence of God has become more and more real.

 

[farouk]

I agree.

2 Timothy 1:7 says: "For God did not give us a spirit of timidity (of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear), but [He has given us a spirit] of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control."

I used to feel rejected by God because the verse didn't instantly apply to me. I had to learn that it is indeed a process, one you faithfully seek after for.. God has been there for me, and time as has passed,my belief in this verse and seeing the evidence of God has become more and more real.

Angel: And it's when we prayerfully read and meditate in the Scriptures trustingly, and seeing and worshipping Christ in the Scriptures, that we become more and more confidently atune with the mind and will of God.

Blessings.

 

[Angel]

Amen

 

[farouk]

Amen

Yes, indeed! And as we read the Bible more and more, such verses that we find as 2 Timothy 1.7 become increasingly precious to us! Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we did we would not worry about a lot of things other people do but just love them for who they are and want them to become better people in the Lord.

Do you mean 'other people' to be our fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord? If so, I agree with the sentiment only to an extent, the problem being that this thinking all by itself is very dangerous. This kind of PC thinking in the church, minus effective teaching about individual responsibility, discipline, and restraint, has produced a church that pretty much looks just like the world. And we call that 'witness'.

We boast about our liberties to do whatever we want and excuse ourselves from the good healthy judgment of sound teaching and instruction in the name of those liberties. And all we've gotten out of it is a dumb-downed church that looks just like the world.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can even FULLY enjoy a heavy bodied merlot!

Just do it in secret.

I've change my mind completely about alcohol.

Because of how worshiped and abused it is in our society I don't think the rare chance that it will be handled properly by a Christian (personally and/or in regard to safe witness) is sufficient reason for the church to officially not accept alcohol consumption.

If we're honest with ourselves, entertaining alcohol is, generally speaking, similar to thinking you can be attracted to the office hottie and indulge their company just as long as you don't cross some imaginary line--a line you don't even know where it is exactly until you cross it (talking in regard to, both, personal use and outward witness). Wise people make every effort to stay away from the line, not see how close they can come to it without falling.

If anyone disagrees with me, just think about the office hottie I used as the illustration.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers. I'm just trying to show how our thinking can be so inconsistent sometimes.

 

[Obadiah]

Just do it in secret.

I've change my mind completely about alcohol.

Because of how worshiped and abused it is in our society I don't think the rare chance that it will be handled properly by a Christian (personally and/or in regard to safe witness) is sufficient reason for the church to officially accept alcohol consumption.

If we're honest with ourselves, entertaining alcohol is, generally speaking, similar to thinking you can be attracted to the office hottie and indulge their company just as long as you don't cross some imaginary line--a line you don't even know where it is exactly until you cross it (talking in regard to, both, personal use and outward witness). Wise people make every effort to stay away from the line, not see how close they can come to it without falling.

If anyone disagrees with me, just think about the office hottie I used as the illustration.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers. I'm just trying to show how our thinking can be so inconsistent sometimes.

See, that's where I think it boils down to maturity in the Lord, which doesn't come overnight. (On matters that aren't specifically condemned in scripture, of course. Do I really need to specify that?) I don't think proper handling of alcohol is all that rare among mature Christians who do not have a tendency toward alcoholism. Neither do I think the "office hottie" is to be completely shunned by all Christian men just because she is lucky enough to look appealing and puts out the effort to look her best. Not ALL Christian men find the same level of sexual temptation that some do. For those that do find they have problems with these kind of things, by all means avoid them! You are right, we are not supposed to see how close we can get to a "line". But that line is in different places for different people and just because one person's activity is close to someone else's "line" doesn't mean they are also just trying to see how close they can get to their own line. Maybe they are, but they could just as easily be very far from their own particular line. This is one reason why we are told not to judge on these matters. We do not have access to the information in their hearts that God has.

Certainly the church doesn't have to publicly advertise that they accept alcohol consumption (or other such things) as that could put a stumbling block in front of weak Christians, but they should also not go to the other extreme and condemn something that is not condemned in scripture. That is wrong and amounts to phariseeism. It is far better to simply and honestly teach what scripture actually says (not what men have twisted it to say so it matches their own personal preferences), and encourage believers to follow it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's interesting how we probably all agree you should not flirt with the office hottie that you're attracted to for fear of what might happen when things get out of control (these days I guess 'hottie' can mean either male or female, right?). And in this sense I'm confident that this is pretty much an (un)official creed of the church. My question is, "why don't we have the same attitude toward alcohol?" The parallels are unmistakable.

 

[Obadiah]

...Now I am able to have the occasional beer or even a mixed drink around the holidays to socialize with friends and so forth but not to become drunk or start drinking consistently. It has no stronghold in me. A recovering alcoholic can not even take one drink as I understand it...

Yes, this is a good example. The line for you (concerning alcohol in this instance) is in a different place than it is for the recovering alcoholic. You are not staying as far from the line as possible or you wouldn't drink at all. But there's no command in scripture to stay as far as possible from those lines. That's when we fall into legalism. On the other hand, you aren't seeing how close you can get to that line either. You are just drinking in a responsible Godly manner. Not showing off. Not pushing any boundaries.

I think the same thing applies to the "office hottie" and many other situations as well. Men in general may be wired to appreciate female beauty (as women appreciate a nice looking man too) but that doesn't mean all men are incapable of any conversation with females without lusting after them. (It's the lust that is condemned, and lust applies to a lot of things, not just women!) If she or the man are married, of course flirting is crossing the line and we shouldn't be trying to see how close we can get to that line either. Besides, if there is no goal of adultery, what is the purpose for flirting among married people anyway (with someone who isn't their spouse)? But not all conversation and interaction between males and females has to be limited to either flirting or mandatory communication to conduct business. We don't have to be aloof and standoffish just to avoid sin. We can, with God's help, control our urges so we interact with people in a proper Godly way without having to avoid them altogether. I don't think most wives would mind a husband talking to the office hottie in a non-flirting way if she knows her husband is a Godly man and is committed to their marriage. If she doesn't see him as a committed and Godly man, or if she has an abnormal problem with jealousy, then there are other serious root problems that need to be worked on between that husband and wife!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Excellent.

Now compare that warning to the warning the Bible gives us about alcohol:

"Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!" (Proverbs 21:31 NIV)

Despite Obadiah's dissenting opinion, I think the Church as a whole pretty much agrees on the distance people should keep between themselves and the alluring beauty and attraction of the opposite sex. But for some reason this caution goes out the window in regard to alcohol, even though the Bible makes the same warning about the alluring beauty of alcohol and it's dangers for those who don't heed that advice.

It's not okay to gaze at a woman, or man, who's not your spouse for danger of where it will lead. The Bible says the same thing about gazing with longing at alcohol, but we in the church have decided, generally speaking, of course, that we really can gaze at and long for the pleasures of alcohol despite the danger of doing so.

I used to defend alcohol consumption by Christians. Not any more. I don't think there's as many responsible Christians as some think there is. Responsible to me means NOT indulging it. It's just too dangerous. Considering what alcohol has become In our society entertaining it is like entertaining the attractive person you really need to just forget about. The dangers to, both, yourself and your witness outweigh the freedom you have to entertain either of these things. In our society, I've seen too many lives and families ruined by alcohol for the church to somehow put it's stamp of approval on it.

 

[Obadiah]

I think the danger in thinking that one can associate with the woman and not cross an imaginary line...is warned unto us in Proverbs:

Proverbs 6:25-28
25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adultress will hunt for the precious life.
27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
28 Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?/(KJV)

Something to think about.

The problem with this stance as I see it is that "association" is very far removed from words like "lust", "whorish", "adulteress" and the other words used in these scriptures to describe the type of relationship the writer is talking about. Nowhere does this say there should not be any "association" with the opposite gender. This is an area that needs to be determined by the individual Christian depending on his/her maturity. Sure, if one person is so weak spiritually that they can not associate in any way with a person of the opposite gender without committing adultery or fornication, then they need to be much more rigid in avoiding contact with the opposite gender. (I'm saying "opposite gender" now because it's been proven many times that this affects both genders, not just men.) But I just can't believe that all people, even men in particular, have this total lack of self control. Personally I've seen some churches set rules such as prohibiting men and women from talking to each other, demanding that a woman and man keep a pre-determined physical distance between them when siting on the church pews, and other such measures that in my opinion are nothing but legalism and are completely ineffective in bringing about Christian growth. Rather than this type of restrictive legalism, church leaders would be far better off to have frank lessons on just what is sin in these areas and the importance and benefit of lusting after God instead. To be honest, I've almost never seen this done in an honest, practical, and scriptural way. Instead I've always seen a severe paranoia resulting in draconian rules that are more suited to small children than to mature adults. All this does (in my observations) is turn thinking and reasonable people away from God instead of drawing them closer.

 

[Obadiah]

Despite Obadiah's dissenting opinion, I think the Church as a whole pretty much agrees on the distance people should keep between themselves and the alluring beauty and attraction of the opposite sex. But for some reason this caution goes out the window in regard to alcohol, even though the Bible makes the same warning about the alluring beauty of alcohol and it's dangers for those who don't heed that advice.

Actually, I didn't mean to give that impression at all. I feel there is the same need for avoiding alcohol for those who do not have the ability to drink it in a proper and Godly way. But as stated above regarding associations with opposite genders, it is a matter of the Christian's individual situation and ability to handle it in a mature way. It is no ones place to judge that other person based on our own abilities or preferences. (And, no, before someone says it... I KNOW someone is at least thinking it... I am NOT just trying to justify my own behavior. I can't specifically remember the last time I drank alcohol it's been so long ago, and have never "gone after" the "office hottie" in my life!)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem with this stance as I see it is that "association" is very far removed from words like "lust", "whorish", "adulteress" and the other words used in these scriptures to describe the type of relationship the writer is talking about.

Somehow all this does not apply to the man/woman who is not any of these but just happens to be very attractive to some other man/ woman? The truth is, though I don't struggle with adulterous longings, the 'normal' not-slutty woman is easily going to be far more attractive to me personally. In fact, if you want to insure I won't be interested in you, ladies, be whorish and slutty.

Nowhere does this say there should not be any "association" with the opposite gender. This is an area that needs to be determined by the individual Christian depending on his/her maturity.

Maturity is knowing you are not invincible, and knowing you are still very much flesh and blood. Maturity means walking away. Maturity is not hanging around because you're sure you're above temptation.

Sure, if one person is so weak spiritually that they can not associate in any way with a person of the opposite gender without committing adultery or fornication, then they need to be much more rigid in avoiding contact with the opposite gender. (I'm saying "opposite gender" now because it's been proven many times that this affects both genders, not just men.) But I just can't believe that all people, even men in particular, have this total lack of self control.

No, you misunderstand. It's about finding out you don't have self control...the hard way. Why even risk finding out?

Personally I've seen some churches set rules such as prohibiting men and women from talking to each other, demanding that a woman and man keep a pre-determined physical distance between them when siting on the church pews, and other such measures that in my opinion are nothing but legalism and are completely ineffective in bringing about Christian growth.

We all know that's just stupid. There's no reason to play the legalism card, and use ridiculous examples, to rationalize being around a woman who may potentially challenge your strength as a Christian.

Rather than this type of restrictive legalism, church leaders would be far better off to have frank lessons on just what is sin in these areas and the importance and benefit of lusting after God instead. To be honest, I've almost never seen this done in an honest, practical, and scriptural way.

Show us in the Bible where your thinking is taught. We showed you where our thinking is taught. 'Flee'! That's the message of the Bible.

Instead I've always seen a severe paranoia resulting in draconian rules that are more suited to small children than to mature adults. All this does (in my observations) is turn thinking and reasonable people away from God instead of drawing them closer.

That can only happen to a natural person.

Obadiah, consider that 50% of Christian men have viewed pornography in the last year (slightly higher for pastors). How can the church defend anything other than what the Bible teaches about this in view of such stats?

 

[Obadiah]

...My apologies if you took me the wrong way...

No, not at all. We're just having a conversation!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...it is a matter of the Christian's individual situation and ability to handle it in a mature way. It is no ones place to judge that other person based on our own abilities or preferences.

I agree completely.

What I'm trying to argue for is the church needs to take a harder official line against associations with the opposite sex, and alcohol use. This extreme 'hands off' attitude toward matters like these is destroying the church, not helping it. This attitude has us looking more and more like the world, not making us peculiar in the eyes of the world.

 

[JPPT1974]

We may live in the world. But we are not of it.Due to the fact our REAL home is in heaven with Jesus!

 

[farouk]

We may live in the world. But we are not of it.Due to the fact our REAL home is in heaven with Jesus!

Well, exactly.

In it. But not of it.

Blessings.

 

[turnorburn]

I can think of two men from scripture both from the old testament both bricks both very close to God, they both failed miserably when a woman stepped into their lives..

Adam and King David

tob