Saving faith with works is saving faith by works

[Hopeful 2]

Well, either of us can define the "law" as we please and manipulate the ambiguity of the term "law" to make discussion of not avail. The "law" has various meanings depending on context. I could go into detail but I won't bother .

What an odd response...
How many "laws" do you know of where the "L" is capitalized while discussing Jewish things ?
What else besides circumcision to be saved did Paul ever write against ?
Certainly not repentance from sin, or baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing].
Well, the verse itself extends the "ban" to "the law" which brings us back to what is the definition of the law which is to complex/controversial to bother to get into.

It was you who cited circumcision, so I know you are aware of what Law is being discussed.

Total agreement on this point. Works are an effect; the cause of which is faith. (The cause of faith being a discussion for another day).

Yes, especially the works James was writing of.
He wasn't trying to get men to convert, like Paul was.
James' audience had already converted, and their "good deeds" were the proof of conversion.

Being a liars is not a perquisite for heaven. Peter lied when he said he would not deny Christ and Peter is in heaven. Therefore, liars are in heaven. That being said, there are liars that are not in heaven.

Of course not, (and I have no idea where you got the idea I suggested it was).
But telling the truth is a requirement to finding our name is in the book of life on the day of judgement.

???? You lost me.

If a man won't tell a lie, so he can be found faithful on the last day, is his honesty a "work" you opine wont save him ?

??? one is saved by faith and faith alone .... I don't know what point you are trying to make. You are not saved by works and sinners can be saved. I don't know what the point is you are trying to make.

Can a liar honestly say he has faith ?
If he actually had faith, wouldn't he tell the truth all the time so he would be found worthy of eternal life ?
Telling the truth will save him.
Can an adulterer honestly say he has faith ?
As no adulterer will ever see eternal life, whatever faith he may claim is not real.
By being monogamous, he can be saved.
Honesty and monogamy will save a man.
Real faith is backed up by deeds.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Here we go with the faith vs. works argument yet again.
Are we saved by faith?
Are we saved by faith and works?
Without works are we saved at all?
Let's explore what the Bible says.
We will look at the requirements for salvation.
Then we will look at Paul's and James' teachings, and see if we can reconcile what looks like a huge contradiction.

First, let's go to the most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus is the only requirement Jesus said was necessary for salvation. There is no argument that will win against this verse. The fact that Jesus said it should end this discussion. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That said, and pay attention here, this is the critically important caveat to the discussion: All, all other Scripture must agree with John 3:16. You have to have that mindset, or either Jesus, James, or Paul is lying. Yeah, that's how important this is.

Now let's look specifically at faith. The obvious place to look is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is bestowed by God (we are made just), through faith (belief) that God provides (God's gift), in Jesus. This is not of works by man. We cannot brag that we did anything that warrants salvation. So the faith we need to believe comes from God. Believers are the product of God's work (not ours, God's work) We were Created in Christ unto (there's that future tense word again) good works. Works which God has previously (already) ordained (conferred by holy order) in which we are to walk (live our daily lives i.e. Keep walking everybody.).
Creation, in Christ, comes first. Then the work of salvation makes it possible to do good works. Nothing in this passage disagrees with John 3:16.

Now let's look at James.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified - to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

This verse makes it look like James is in direct conflict with what Jesus and Paul taught. But James is actually in agreement with Jesus and Paul.
How can this be so?

Good works that will result in salvation was being taught by the Pharisees in Ephesus. Paul was responding to this teaching saying this is not so; that salvation is the work of God. James, however, is writing to converted Jews. He is telling them genuine faith always produces good works. Salvation justifies us before God. Good works justify us before man. James has already shown in 1:18, no one can be saved by good works.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
BEGET', pret. begot, begat pp. begot, begotten - To procreate, as a father or sire to generate as, to beget a son

James says we are saved (born again ) by the will of God through the word of truth (Jesus). We are God's work; not our work, God's work. So James is not contradicting himself in 2:24. Because we are God's work. Our works are not necessary for salvation. But they are the sign of a living faith working within us. v17
In verse 22, he used the Greek word "eteleiōthē" (try saying that fast) to explain good works as the "completion," or the end result, of a living faith.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
wrought - verb; archaic past and past participle of work.
adjective: wrought - (of metals) beaten out or shaped by hammering.

James is still writing about God's works here, "his work." "And by works" (The pronoun "his" has not changed. So James is still writing about God's works.) was faith made perfect. This has to be God's works. Because our works, without God's works, are as filthy rags (unworthy). Isa. 64:6 James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation.

Further, we are given the example of Abraham in verse 23.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
impute - past tense: imputed
represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone

Abraham was considered righteous for believing God. James gives no other reason. Abraham exhibited his belief by being obedient to God. If you remember, as Abraham is taking Isaac to the place of sacrifice, Isaac asks Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was. Abraham responded:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Obedience and trust are two of the works of salvation (faith) Abraham was exhibiting. He was living his faith. God had promised him earlier that He would make Abraham the father of many nations. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. (Kinda hard to be the father of many nations without any offspring.) Only faith in God can produce this kind of trust and obedience. Abraham's faith was exhibited by his actions (works).

So in James 2:24, after using Abraham as the example, he tells us man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If you are a believer, you should not have to tell me that you are. I should be able to see God's works in you through how you live your life. There is no such thing as a genuine faith that is "works-less." James is not claiming works are required for salvation.

Think about the parable of the talents. Matt 25:14-30 The last servant buried his talent instead of using it to earn more for his master. If the talent represents faith, then the burying of it is the equivalent of faith not being used. The other two servants used their master's talents and produced increased value. To the servant who did not use (do the works of faith) his talent; he was thrown into outer darkness.
Why?
He was not acting as a servant. The talent given (faith) was buried (hidden), and not being used (good works) to benefit the master. Therefore he was not a servant.

James did not proclaim that works are required for salvation. James is writing that a "faith" that has no works associated with it is not a real faith. If there is no trust, no obedience, no repentance, no evidence of a changed life, there is also no faith. Because true faith is life-changing.

So James is not in disagreement with Jesus or Paul. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James lied.
John 3:16 - belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are saved by grace through faith from God unto good works.
James 2:24 - works justify our faith before man as being genuine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Are the traits of a man who "believes in Him" evil ?
Can't we conclude that any man who murders, steals, slanders, commits adultery, tells lies, or hates any particular group, doesn't really believe in Him ?
I'ld say the conclusion is obvious.

 

[RBDERRICK]

We probably both believe God's words as written...we just don't agree with on another's interpretation.

Agreed.

The verse does not say that we are saved by works as I point out in Romans 5:1. It says one's faith is dead (he does have saving faith) if there are no works.

And we disagree, because I take God serious enough to believe His words as written in common grammar.

I don't play any magic with them, to the point of saying we can having saving and dead faith at the same time.

Mark
{12:27} He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Only 'grown up' scholars can try to pass off something, that any sensible little child knows is foolish speak.

2 Timothy
{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: {6:21} Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace

1 Cor
{14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Isaiah

Isaiah
{34:11} But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

I grant that James 2:14-16 can be seen your way but it contradicts the verses I mentioned.

I contradicts your corruption of other verses.

Your exclusion of all works from your salvation, is obvious. You want to exclude your sinful works from being judged by God as justified or condemned.

No one teaching your stuff has answered a simple question: When you do the same unrighteous works of the flesh as others, who are judged and condemned by God, are you not judged and condemned by God like them?

Do you say they are judged and condemned, but not you when you do the same as them?

James 2:14-16 is explained by Gotquestions.org: Another reason that salvation by works can creep into denominations that claim to be Christian or say they believe in the Bible is that they misunderstand passages like James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” Taken in the context of the entire passage (James 2:14–26), it becomes evident that James is not saying our works make us righteous before God;

1 John
{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

instead, he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or “dead” faith and is not saved.

Distinction without a difference. Once works judge the person's faith and salvation, then our justification is judged by our works.

He also disagrees with your idea of having dead faith with saving faith.

Another question for you: Are you walking in the light with Jesus, when also doing works of darkness?

 

[RBDERRICK]

James is making a contrast between two different types of faith—truth faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

True. The saving faith of Jesus is only given to them that repent of dead works for His sake.

The dead faith of sinful man without repentance, is of himself alone.

Ephesians
{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

There's a warning for those who think they are saved by their works.

No man is saved nor justified by their own works, but only by doing the works of God through Jesus Christ.

I think this would apply to any work.

Of course you would. You don't want your own sinful works to have anything to do with your salvation and justification, by your own fail alone.

No one really preaches being saved and justified without works.

Any faith without works is dead, because there's no such thing as any one on earth with no works, where they are doing neither good nor evil.

Only babes are without any works, whether good or evil.

Romans
{9:11} (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This is the only place in Scripture where God ever speaks of no works at all having nothing to do with His calling. Because babes do no works at all.

After the womb, the only works excluded from His calling, are only those done by man alone, that he can boast of in his own legalism, righteousness, philanthropy, and personal sacrifice.

v.4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. Salvation is a GIFT of God so that no one can boast.

Exactly. Both Jesus' salvation and faith is only given to them that repent of their own boastful works for His sake.

Only the works sons of God do through His Son Jesus can justify a son with the Father. There is no boasting the obedient son can do, but only give God the glory by Jesus Christ.

1 Cor
{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal
{2:20} I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I've offered this to you enough times, without you acknowledging it. So long as you remain willingly ignorant of God making diffeence between His works done in His name, and our works done in our own name, then we're coming to a close.

If you think you saved yourself by yours works then salvation is not a GIFT but something you earn and you can brag about when you meet God.

I know you don't think that I think this, nor teach it.

It's just another example of lying about what others teach, in order to defame it out of hand.

It's common among those who twist Scripture for their own judicial benefit, to do the same with others teaching Scripture as written.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Ephesians 2:7-10
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

If works have nothing to do with our being saved, they have nothing to do with our remaining saved. The basis upon which God accepted us into His family - Christ - is the same basis upon which He continues to accept us (Ephesians 1:6). To suggest something can be added to Christ's atoning work to improve or maintain it is to indicate Christ's atoning work was not sufficient to fully satisfy God, that his sacrifice was not perfect and truly "once for all," as the Bible explicitly and repeatedly declares. This denial of the sufficiency and completeness of Christ's atoning work on the cross is entirely blasphemous, diminishing Christ and his sacrifice and elevating the sinner to co-Savior with Jesus.

Romans 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all...

Hebrews 7:26-27
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12-14
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:10
10 ...we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God...

Isaiah 53:11
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Good Scripture.

All Scripture is good. Post more if you like.

 

[Fastfredy0]

True. The saving faith of Jesus is only given to them that repent of dead works for His sake.

Technically, faith logically precedes repentance; repentance is the cause of faith which your statement infers.

No one really preaches being saved and justified without works.

I think we are having an issue with semantics.

Any faith without works is dead, because there's no such thing as any one on earth with no works, where they are doing neither good nor evil.

What "works" did the thief on the cross have seeing that he apparently was saved while on the cross and had no opportunity to do 'good' works? Granted, I agree with your statement in general.

Romans
{9:11} (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

This is the only place in Scripture where God ever speaks of no works at all having nothing to do with His calling. Because babes do no works at all.

Good point.

Exactly. Both Jesus' salvation and faith is only given to them that repent of their own boastful works for His sake.

Probably semantics again. One does not receive "saving faith" as a result of repentance; that would be "works" salvation. Rather, one receives the gift of faith, said faith causes one to repent and do 'good works'.

Only the works sons of God do through His Son Jesus can justify a son with the Father.

Probably semantics again. We are justified by faith alone and not by works. Faith saves us and causes works.

Only the works sons of God do through His Son Jesus can justify a son with the Father. There is no boasting the obedient son can do, but only give God the glory by Jesus Christ.

1 Cor
{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal
{2:20} I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I've offered this to you enough times, without you acknowledging it. So long as you remain willingly ignorant of God making diffeence between His works done in His name, and our works done in our own name, then we're coming to a close.

I think we have semantic issues. Let's "come to a close".

I know you don't think that I think this, nor teach it.

It's just another example of lying about what others teach, in order to defame it out of hand.

It's common among those who twist Scripture for their own judicial benefit, to do the same with others teaching

Again, I think you are having grammar issues (or maybe it's me) ... I think you mean well. Obviously, we can't communicate. I wish you well.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree their inward desire to want to keep God's law and teach it opposes The Gospel Promise by Faith

I normally don't intrude into argument between others, but sometimes things are so uniquely said, that I'd like clarification.

Are you saying that the desire to keep the law of God opposes the faith of God? Or more exactly, doing the law of God opposes His faith?

, but like I showed with the Genesis 49:10 prophecy, that the Jews ("Judah") would maintain care of God's law all the way to Lord Jesus' future return, that reveals God put that desire in them. So the matter requires a deeper understanding why God has done that...

The same here. God's command that His people keep His law and commandments, is not simply to do His stated will and be blessed by Him?

Or, is the law of God not the codified will of God, but only a letters of a law, that needed remain until Christ comes, and the outward code can be done away to make way for the inward faith of God?

It is still against God's law to do murder, thefts, rape, perjury, etc., even as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.

I ask clarification, because I see you are not antinomian, and against the law of Christ.

And Paul did say that the law was NOT made for the righteous, but for the sinner and the ungodly.

But then, you do appear to say the law of Christ is not for the righteous by faith, as though keeping His law outwardly is not necessary to having His faith within. Or even as it appears in your first statement, that the desire to keep His outward works of law opposes having His inward faith.

Is there an opposition between having inward faith of God and keeping His law outwardly? And as you point out, we're not speaking of the law of Moses, but the NT law of Christ where the godly code remains against murder, thefts, rape, perjury, etc.,

Thus there is a purpose for the Jews having a propensity towards keeping and teaching God's laws,

Isn't that 'propensity' because He commanded them to for His blessing, and warned them of His cursing if they did not?

and God put that desire in them.

Doesn't god put the desire into all His creatures to do His will?

Isn't the law of God His condified will made known by Himself to man?

(No, I'm not Jewish either.). That we should help them understand, in contrast to the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, which was The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Once again, you make an opposition between the faith of God in Abraham, and the commandments of God, which were also given to Abraham.

God says Abraham kept all His commandments and statutes and laws, and was His friend.

If you are only referring specifically to the carnal ordinances of Moses' law for meats, clothing, temple service, etc...and not the God's law of godly and righteous living, then that would clear things up for me.

However, I would not make any opposition between such foreshadowing codes of law, and having the faith of God and Abraham, since that faith was made to include such codes until Christ is come.

Thus under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, they still are not to try and use keeping of the law as a requirement of Christ's Salvation, which is by Faith only.

Once again, this statement is where the difference between temporary codes of Moses' law, and keeping the godly law of Christ, is all important.

Conluding with salvation by faith only, implies both are excluded from being saved and justified by God in Christ Jesus.

The Orthodox Jews are not going to heed The Gospel, and some of them try to creep in among Christ's Church, and that is something those of us in Christ need to watch out for, and contend, like Apostle Paul did in Acts and Galatians.

And yet, once again you seem to only be referring to temporary codes of Moses, and not the continuing godly law of Christ.

I think I already covered that. Again, see what Apostle Paul taught about the law in 1 Timothy 1, and 1 Corinthians 6. He quoted things covered in God's law.

As here, you seem to exclude right rule of Christ against ungodly living, from being saved by faith. There only being opposition today between having the faith of Jesus and keeping old carnal codes as by law.

. One of the reasons would be their ordained duty in keeping His law for the peace and prosperity of even Christian society,

And finally, are you saying the only reason for living godly, is for societal benefit, but has nothing to do with having inward faith?

I believe this is all important in the debate between the gospel of faith without works, vs the gospel of faith with works.

Or rather, the gospel of (saving) faith (only), not by works, vs the gospel of (saving) faith, not by faith (alone), nor apart from works we do.

Finally, is there a difference between having faith (alone) without works, vs having (saving) faith (only), not by works?

I want you to know that this is not an introduction into an argument with you, but only a matter of perfectly understanding the things you teach and preach.

 

[DavidT]

I normally don't intrude into argument between others, but sometimes things are so uniquely said, that I'd like clarification.

Are you saying that the desire to keep the law of God opposes the faith of God? Or more exactly, doing the law of God opposes His faith?

The desire to keep the law as a 'means' of Christ's Salvation directly opposes the idea that we are saved by Faith, and not by works of the law. So please don't try to add words in my mouth that I did not say, as if I'm against following God's laws. I am not against following God's laws. But I don't use 'law keeping' to say that's how I'm saved.

Judah instead, has it in their heart to 'want'... to keep God's law in order to be saved. That is why the early Church had problems with some of the Jewish converts to Christ that were trying to require flesh circumcision in order to be saved by Jesus Christ.

And did the believing Jews like Paul, Peter, and the saints at Jerusalem still keep God's laws while they believed they were saved by Faith? Sure they still kept many of God's laws even after becoming Christians, no doubt more so than the believing Gentiles. In Galatians we see Peter separated from the believing Gentiles when Peter's Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit, which Paul rebuked him for. Peter would not have done that if he didn't know his Jewish brethren were still keeping God's law.

So like I said involving the Genesis 49:10 prophecy that the law would not depart from Judah until Christ (Shiloh) comes, and to Him will the gathering of the people be. God made the tribe of Judah (Jews) in care of His law all the way till Jesus returns at the end of this world.

 

[gordon777]

Judah instead, has it in their heart to 'want'... to keep God's law in order to be saved. That is why the early Church HAD PROBLEMS with some of the Jewish converts to Christ that were trying to require flesh circumcision in order to be saved by Jesus Christ.

And did the believing Jews like Paul, Peter, and the saints at Jerusalem still keep God's laws while they believed they were saved by Faith? Sure they still kept many of God's laws even after becoming Christians, no doubt more so than the believing Gentiles. In Galatians we see Peter separated from the believing Gentiles when Peter's Jewish brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit, which Paul rebuked him for. Peter would not have done that if he didn't know his Jewish brethren were still keeping God's law.

So like I said involving the Genesis 49:10 prophecy that the law would not depart from Judah until Christ (Shiloh) comes, and to Him will the gathering of the people be. God made the tribe of Judah (Jews) in care of His law all the way till Jesus returns at the end of this world.

How about we go the other direction, as we are actually told about in scripture ?

Why the gentiles, had NO PROBLEMS. ( of not wanting to keep law. ( also that they are the circumcision, in the heart, in the Spirit. ( Romans 2:29. Philippians 3:3.)

The gentiles had no problem establishing their own righteousness, and why ?

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to every one that believes. ( Jew/gentile.)

The Jews in Judaism had been going about for thousands of years. ( and right up until this day too) to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND BECAUSE OF THAT ARE IGNORANT OF GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to every one that believes/For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10.)


Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


This stumbling of the stone continues, for both Jews requiring a sign, ( no sign given to them but the sign of the prophet Jonah, who was three days and three nights in the whales belly, so was the Son of man three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:39-40.) and for Greeks seeking after wisdom, ( disputers) but Christ crucified is preached ( to all) which causes the stumbling stone and foolishness to Jews and those who seek after wisdom, but unto the called, ( all who believe/both Jews and Greeks) Christ is the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[gordon777]

When did Shiloh come ?

The gathering of the people unto Him, and God told HIs people, to hear, for a law would proceed from Him, and this is God making HIs judgement rest for a light of the people.

The testimony continues to the Hebrews, of the King of Salem, ( Shiloh) the priest of the most high God, King of righteousness, king of Salem, which is King of peace. Made like unto the Son of God, abides a priest continually. ( for ever/having neither beginning of days nor end of life.)

The priesthood was changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands. ( and the circumcision not of hands.)

By His own blood ( of the EVERLASTING COVENANT. He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

[DavidT]

How about we go the other direction, as we are actually told about in scripture ?

Why the gentiles, had NO PROBLEMS. ( of not wanting to keep law. ( also that they are the circumcision, in the heart, in the Spirit. ( Romans 2:29. Philippians 3:3.)

The gentiles had no problem establishing their own righteousness, and why ?

Those ideas are going too far, and are not really written in God's Word.

What actually happened among the Gentiles, is when they accepted Christ, then many of them thought they had license to go even beyond the ignorant behavior they were already used to. And Apostle Paul had to keep admonishing them how to follow Christ. This is even why Paul brought up to the Galatians the difference between walking in The Spirit vs. doing the works of the flesh (Gal.5).

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to every one that believes. ( Jew/gentile.)

The Jews in Judaism had been going about for thousands of years. ( and right up until this day too) to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND BECAUSE OF THAT ARE IGNORANT OF GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS. (Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to every one that believes/For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10.)

Well, that's not completely true either. The new babe in Christ needs to learn the difference between the faithful among Israel in Old Testament times vs. those who fell away, and especially so when both the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" fell into false worship, and God scattered them both for it. There has always been a faithful remnant of the children of Israel.

Now the ones among Israel that were mostly guilty of seeking their own righteousness were those mostly not even born of Israel, foreigners that crept in long ago of the Canaanites (see Judges 2 & 3; 1 Kings 9:20; Ezra 2: Ezra 9; Jude 4). Many of these began as bondservants, then became temple servants (Nethinims), and eventually some of them became priests in Israel. And the Kenites, a people from the land of Canaan, had become the scribes of Israel in charge of keeping copies of God's Word (1 Chron.2:55; Gen.15). This no doubt had a lot to do with setting up the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" that Lord Jesus mentioned, which were the main ones actually responsible for having Him crucified.

Recall what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about God having put the spirit of stupor upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews. Paul showed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, that blindness will be removed, and that means when Lord Jesus returns. That points to the faithful Jews who actually love God, but simply have been spiritually blinded so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles like Paul said.

So I believe the majority of them will believe on Jesus Christ once their blindness is removed. Zechariah 12 shows them in mourning for Christ when that happens. As for the "synagogue of Satan", not so much, because those represent Satan's servants here on earth that worship him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I normally don't intrude into argument between others, but sometimes things are so uniquely said, that I'd like clarification.

Are you saying that the desire to keep the law of God opposes the faith of God? Or more exactly, doing the law of God opposes His faith?




The same here. God's command that His people keep His law and commandments, is not simply to do His stated will and be blessed by Him?

Or, is the law of God not the codified will of God, but only a letters of a law, that needed remain until Christ comes, and the outward code can be done away to make way for the inward faith of God?



I ask clarification, because I see you are not antinomian, and against the law of Christ.



But then, you do appear to say the law of Christ is not for the righteous by faith, as though keeping His law outwardly is not necessary to having His faith within. Or even as it appears in your first statement, that the desire to keep His outward works of law opposes having His inward faith.

Is there an opposition between having inward faith of God and keeping His law outwardly? And as you point out, we're not speaking of the law of Moses, but the NT law of Christ where the godly code remains against murder, thefts, rape, perjury, etc.,






Isn't that 'propensity' because He commanded them to for His blessing, and warned them of His cursing if they did not?



Doesn't god put the desire into all His creatures to do His will?

Isn't the law of God His condified will made known by Himself to man?



Once again, you make an opposition between the faith of God in Abraham, and the commandments of God, which were also given to Abraham.

God says Abraham kept all His commandments and statutes and laws, and was His friend.

If you are only referring specifically to the carnal ordinances of Moses' law for meats, clothing, temple service, etc...and not the God's law of godly and righteous living, then that would clear things up for me.

However, I would not make any opposition between such foreshadowing codes of law, and having the faith of God and Abraham, since that faith was made to include such codes until Christ is come.


Once again, this statement is where the difference between temporary codes of Moses' law, and keeping the godly law of Christ, is all important.

Conluding with salvation by faith only, implies both are excluded from being saved and justified by God in Christ Jesus.






And yet, once again you seem to only be referring to temporary codes of Moses, and not the continuing godly law of Christ.




As here, you seem to exclude right rule of Christ against ungodly living, from being saved by faith. There only being opposition today between having the faith of Jesus and keeping old carnal codes as by law.






And finally, are you saying the only reason for living godly, is for societal benefit, but has nothing to do with having inward faith?

I believe this is all important in the debate between the gospel of faith without works, vs the gospel of faith with works.

Or rather, the gospel of (saving) faith (only), not by works, vs the gospel of (saving) faith, not by faith (alone), nor apart from works we do.

Finally, is there a difference between having faith (alone) without works, vs having (saving) faith (only), not by works?

I want you to know that this is not an introduction into an argument with you, but only a matter of perfectly understanding the things you teach and preach.

This is an open board.
No intrusion.
You can reply to any post at any time.

Of course, the choice is yours.

 

[gordon777]

Recall what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11 about God having put the spirit of stupor upon the majority of Paul's brethren the Jews. Paul showed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, that blindness will be removed, and that means when Lord Jesus returns. That points to the faithful Jews who actually love God, but simply have been spiritually blinded so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles like Paul said.

So I believe the majority of them will believe on Jesus Christ once their blindness is removed. Zechariah 12 shows them in mourning for Christ when that happens. As for the "synagogue of Satan", not so much, because those represent Satan's servants here on earth that worship him.

Yes I will go straight to your idea that the Jews will turn to Christ. ( the majority)

There is a lot of testimony about this, lets see if many of it is of any use to you. ( or how many posts, you continue to state, what I say is untrue, even though it is entirely scripture, versus your ideas from mainly the old testament, plus your own words mostly also.)


The word of God had to be first spoken to Israel, Israel turned away, the apostles turned to the Gentiles.

Paul testified both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

( Acts 20 shows how many thousands of Jews believed in Christ.)

First Paul shows unto them of Damascus, and Jerusalem, and all Judea, and afterwards to the Gentiles, for all to turn to God and repent...


Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Acts 26:2 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, which was to the Jew first ( it was first preached to them) and also to the Greek. ( preached to the Greeks afterwards.)

But anguish goes to everyone who does evil. ( who does not believe in Jesus Christ) to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile.

Glory goes to every man that works good ( belief in Christ) to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:



The apostles proved both Jews and Gentiles to all be under sin, as there was none righteous, none that sought after God. ( they are calling all to God)

The law said the things it said to them under it, so they are guilty before God. By the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God WITHUT THE LAW, is MANIFESTED, the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto and upon ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE, for THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, all sinned, all fell short of the glory of God. ( now they are freely justified by HIs grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.)

He is the God of the Jews and the Gentiles, which shall justify the circumcision by FAITH, and uncircumcision through FAITH. ( this ESTABLISHES THE LAW/OF FAITH.)...



Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[gordon777]

God willing to make HIs power known, (not made known to those fitted to destruction) but made known the riches of HIs glory on those of mercy, even the called, of the Jews and also of the Gentiles.

A remnant of Israel shall be saved. ( A REMNANT IS THE ONLY MAJORITY.)

Why did Israel (as the sand of the sea) who follow after the la of righteousness, not get the law of righteousness ?

Because of the Gentiles testimony, the Gentiles followed not after righteousness, then can attain to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of FAITH. Israel sought it NOT BY FAITH. ( Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith. Romans 9:32.)
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JEW AND THE GREEK, the Lord is OVER ALL WHO CALL UPON HIM.
As Romans 11 concludes, there was at that present time, a remnant according to the election of grace. ( whicH is all Israel being saved.

Back on Romans 9, we hear the word of God TOOK EFFECT, as they are NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH BE OF ISRAEL. ( SO ALL ISRAEL/WHO ARE ISRAEL, SHALL BE SAVED.)

In Isaac the seed shall be CALLED. The children of the PROMISE, are COUNTED FOR THE SEED. ( the children of the flesh ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD/NOT ISRAEL.)....


Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Christ crucified is preached to the world, unto the Jews it is a stumbling block. ( they SOUGHT IT NOT BY FAITH, BUT THE GENTILES SOUGHT BY FAITH.) but unto the Greeks ( seeking after wisdom) it is foolishness.

Unto those who are called, BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

By one Spirit WE ARE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be JEWS OR GENTILES, ALL have been made to drink into one Spirit.

FOR ALL ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. Baptized in Christ to put on Christ, THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, FOR ALL ARE ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

Putting on the new man renewed in knowledge after Him that created him, WHERE THERE IS NEITHER GREEK NOR JEW, circumcision nor uncircumcision, BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL....



1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The desire to keep the law as a 'means' of Christ's Salvation directly opposes the idea that we are saved by Faith, and not by works of the law. So please don't try to add words in my mouth that I did not say, as if I'm against following God's laws. I am not against following God's laws. But I don't use 'law keeping' to say that's how I'm saved.

This is why we ask for clarification.

And I only ask, because there are antinomians, that do preach against keeping the law of Christ at all. They make the law adversarial to faith: Having faith and keeping the law becomes mutually exclusive. They say the law of God was killed with Jesus on the cross, and is now dead to God and faith.

You clarify faith does not exclude doing the law of Christ, but rather keeping the law without faith is the error of outward law keeping alone.

Keeping the law is good and not wrong, but without faith, no man is justified by works of the law alone.

And so what about being justified through faith only?

We shouldn't seek justification by law alone, while not believing in the Lawgiver. But what about seeking justification by faith alone, while not obeying His law?

Are Jews justified by obeying the law, without faith? Of course not. That is what Paul condemns.

Are Christians justified by faith, while disobeying His law?

 

[RBDERRICK]

The LIARS are those particularly of the crept in unawares that keep trying to PUSH the keeping of God's law in order to be saved

God forbid. How else can grace abound, without disobeying the law of God??

Deut
{4:40} Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever

{8:6} Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

{28:9} The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

No sinner likes a pushy LORD God.

C'mon God! Why be so pushy all the time? Where's the love?

 

[RBDERRICK]

one of the matters that Christ's early Church had to deal with, the converts of the blind Pharisees that according to Apostle Paul were trying to pervert the True Gospel of Jesus Christ with "another gospel" which is no gospel.

Blind Pharisees refuse the gospel of Jesus Christ, because they rejected faith from the heart is necessary to keep God's law.

The perversion of the gospel only began with believing Pharisees, that command all the law of Moses be kept with the faith of Jesus.

The perversion of the gospel then became Christians trusting in their faith alone to save them, without keeping God's law and obeying Jesus as Lord.

Matthew
{6:46} And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The subject at hand is between doing works without faith, that are unjustified with God, and doing God's justified works by faith.

So far, the only ones even acknowledging the difference, are those that preach keeping Christ's law by the faith of Jesus.

The faith aloners have made themselves blind to the difference between works of the flesh by sinful men, and works in the Spirit done by righteous sons.

This also happens to be the blindness of natural men, that judge all works are the same, and reject there being any faith nor Spirit of God to live by.

This is why faith without works is judged dead by God, evn as the unbelievers that profess no faith.

Believers make themselves unbelievers to God, by separating their faith from the deeds they do.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The LIARS are those particularly of the crept in unawares that keep trying to PUSH the keeping of God's law in order to be saved,

Matthew
{28:18} And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. {28:19} Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {28:20} Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Pushy Jesus.

You'd think He just told them to teach and keep His commandments, as though to be saved.

Only LIARS teach keeping the commandments of the Lord, and not believe only.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Faith aloners will isolate certain Scriptures from others, in order to teach to the exclusion of other Scripture.

Their favorite one is quoting salvation by grace through faith alone, not by any works..

The Scripture for being justified by works, is excluded from Eph 2. Thus, they isolate the Scripture to the exclusion of others, in order to preach their own gospel of being saved by faith alone, not by works.

Matthew
{28:18} And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. {28:19} Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {28:20} Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

By the Scripture isolation manner of teaching, we see here that grace and faith is excluded from the great commission to teach and keep the Lord's commandments.

Being a saved disciple of Jesus Christ is by keeping His commandments alone, not by grace through faith.

We see the lies of Scripture isolationism, where it is just as false to preach salvation by grace through faith alone, not by works, as to preach keeping commandments alone, not by grace through faith.

 

[gordon777]

Faith aloners will isolate certain Scriptures from others, in order to teach to the exclusion of other Scripture.

Their favorite one is quoting salvation by grace through faith alone, not by any works..

The Scripture for being justified by works, is excluded from Eph 2. Thus, they isolate the Scripture to the exclusion of others, in order to preach their own gospel of being saved by faith alone, not by works.

Matthew
{28:18} And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. {28:19} Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {28:20} Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

By the Scripture isolation manner of teaching, we see here that grace and faith is excluded from the great commission to teach and keep the Lord's commandments.

Being a saved disciple of Jesus Christ is by keeping His commandments alone, not by grace through faith.

We see the lies of Scripture isolationism, where it is just as false to preach salvation by grace through faith alone, not by works, as to preach keeping commandments alone, not by grace through faith.

If words can save us, would Jesus Christ need to come in the flesh, to do more than words, but to show the way that the word was made flesh, dwelled among us, ( He that dwells n love dwells in God) and went about doing good to all afflicted by the devil, ( God with Him) and the work of God is belief, because Jesus does not save/keep HIs life, but lays it down, and can show who is a liar, can be hard with the Pharisees as He is the creator of all, but told to all others, we are no better than anyone else, and our words will not save anyone, our complaints wont save, our exaltation, but just as Jesus Christ is more than words, so we believe in Him, we have to be more then words too, or we cannot confess Jesus Christ ( give testimony of Him) in sincerity that way.

Knowledge puffs up/charity edifies, we can have all knowledge but not have charity/charity is KIND not PUFFED UP.



Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.