Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 3 - analogy

[DJT_47]

If I said to you I will give you a gift but you must do something first before you can get it. You immediately start thinking, wow, wonder what I'm going to get? Will it be a car, or a TV, or boat, or ??? And what will I have to do?

Then I tell you what the deal is and what the gift is.

The gift is not a car, or TV, or boat, but simply money. With that money, you can then get other gifts, like the car, or TV, or boat.

This is the meaning of Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

The money is the primary gift and once you have the money you can then obtain secondary gifts with or by it.

The money, the gift in this analogy is the Holy Ghost, the primary gift.

The car, TV, and boat are the secondary gifts, the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

And what you have to do to obtain the primary gift (the Holy Ghost), before you can get the secondary gifts (the spiritual gifts or manifestations of the sprit), is repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, per Acts 2:38.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



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[Dorothy Mae]

What is supposed to be confusing that you are clarifying?

 

[DJT_47]

What is supposed to be confusing that you are clarifying?

The so-called gifts of the Spirit or manifestations of the Spirit don't exist today as many commonly believe and I've laid out by scripture why they don't and can't.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The so-called gifts of the Spirit or manifestations of the Spirit don't exist today as many commonly believe and I've laid out by scripture why they don't and can't.

That’s what people say who have never known the gifts of the Holy Spirit in them and through them. But you’re the first to say that those who walk in those gifts are “confused.”

 

[DJT_47]

That’s what people say who have never known the gifts of the Holy Spirit in them and through them. But you’re the first to say that those who walk in those gifts are “confused.”

Tell me what gifts you possess? Are you performing miracles? Are you healing the sick and mamed, going from hospital to hospital to heal people? Are you raising the dead? What new wisdom or knowledge have you made known that's not been told to us by scripture? Or, do you just babble incoherent gibberish and call them "tongues"?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Tell me what gifts you possess? Are you performing miracles? Are you healing the sick and mamed, going from hospital to hospital to heal people? Are you raising the dead? What new wisdom or knowledge have you made known that's not been told to us by scripture? Or, do you just babble incoherent gibberish and call them "tongues"?

Well, one does like the term "performing" miracles but yes, I have prayed for the lame and she got up and walked. I have prayed for others and they were healed. Never asked to raise the dead. Those who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given them BECAUSE they obey and so they do not go around looking for subjects anymore than Jesus entered town and went to find who was sick. They came to Him.

Anyone who is filled with the Holy Spirit knows the do not get or give "new knowledge" not in scripture. That is what the fakers do and say. Try not to get angry at not being so gifted. If we who are evil know how to give good gifts, how much more with the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. So ask, that you may receive.

 

[DJT_47]

Well, one does like the term "performing" miracles but yes, I have prayed for the lame and she got up and walked. I have prayed for others and they were healed. Never asked to raise the dead. Those who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given them BECAUSE they obey and so they do not go around looking for subjects anymore than Jesus entered town and went to find who was sick. They came to Him.

Anyone who is filled with the Holy Spirit knows the do not get or give "new knowledge" not in scripture. That is what the fakers do and say. Try not to get angry at not being so gifted. If we who are evil know how to give good gifts, how much more with the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. So ask, that you may receive.

So the lame was immediately healed in front of eyes and got up and walked, is that correct?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So the lame was immediately healed in front of eyes and got up and walked, is that correct?

Yea, she was pretty excited and ran around praising God. We didn’t know it couldn’t be done anymore but went ahead and did it.

Now you can argue against this or attack me personally OR you can ask God to give you the Holy Spirit. Those are the options I think you have. The first response is an example of the biblical “resisting the Holy Spirit.” …not recommended… The second is what the enemies of God do and done down through the centuries….slay the messenger….also not recommended. Or you can humble yourself (ouch that HURTS) and ask your Father in Heaven to give you His Spirit. If you have some, ask for more until the “confusion regarding the gifts” becomes clear.

 

[DJT_47]

Yea, she was pretty excited and ran around praising God. We didn’t know it couldn’t be done anymore but went ahead and did it.

Now you can argue against this or attack me personally OR you can ask God to give you the Holy Spirit. Those are the options I think you have. The first response is an example of the biblical “resisting the Holy Spirit.” …not recommended… The second is what the enemies of God do and done down through the centuries….slay the messenger….also not recommended. Or you can humble yourself (ouch that HURTS) and ask your Father in Heaven to give you His Spirit. If you have some, ask for more until the “confusion regarding the gifts” becomes clear.

I would like to believe you but I can't as the scriptures don't agree. And I do have have the Holy Spirit because that's what the scriptures teach; upon baptism into Christ one receives the Holy Spirit as promised, but i don't have miraculous gifts manifested by the Spirit, which were so manifested by the laying on of the apostle's hands. That's what the scriptures absolutely say in black and white. And I've said this before as well, don't confuse prayer for one of the miraculous spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Prayer is not a gift of the Spirit.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would like to believe you but I can't as the scriptures don't agree.

Too bad. She was very glad we didn’t have your view, that God has ceased healing people.

And I do have have the Holy Spirit because that's what the scriptures teach; upon baptism into Christ one receives the Holy Spirit as promised, but i don't have miraculous gifts manifested by the Spirit, which were so manifested by the laying on of the apostle's hands. That's what the scriptures absolutely say in black and white. And I've said this before as well, don't confuse prayer for one of the miraculous spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10. Prayer is not a gift of the Spirit.

Healing is a gift according to scripture..working of miracles it’s called. They shall follow those who believe according to scripture. But God doesn’t force His gifts on anyone. You needn’t have any of them if you prefer. But with that kind of theology, it’s doubtful you’ll have the privilege of seeing the lame walk. Theology has clearly birthed unbelief in that case. You would like to believe me, that God healed a lame sister, but you cannot. Your theology has robbed you of the faith to believe.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

There it is, working of miracles.

 

[Hopeful]

If I said to you I will give you a gift but you must do something first before you can get it. You immediately start thinking, wow, wonder what I'm going to get? Will it be a car, or a TV, or boat, or ??? And what will I have to do?

Then I tell you what the deal is and what the gift is.

The gift is not a car, or TV, or boat, but simply money. With that money, you can then get other gifts, like the car, or TV, or boat.

This is the meaning of Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

The money is the primary gift and once you have the money you can then obtain secondary gifts with or by it.

The money, the gift in this analogy is the Holy Ghost, the primary gift.

The car, TV, and boat are the secondary gifts, the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

And what you have to do to obtain the primary gift (the Holy Ghost), before you can get the secondary gifts (the spiritual gifts or manifestations of the sprit), is repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, per Acts 2:38.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Agreed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

DJT_47, I will be charitable and admit this astounding healing took place in the undeveloped world. There believers aren’t taught that God no longer gives the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They aren’t confused about that matter but simply believe. And so, because they believe, it’s easier for their faith to be rewarded with healings, etc.

It’s a little like I was too young to have heard the theology that says God no longer speaks to people because we have the Bible. So when God spoke to me as a child, I simply responded. By the time I learned that theology, it was too late. I’d already been accustomed to hearing and distinguishing His voice for a decade or so.

 

[DJT_47]

Too bad. She was very glad we didn’t have your view, that God has ceased healing people.

Healing is a gift according to scripture..working of miracles it’s called. They shall follow those who believe according to scripture. But God doesn’t force His gifts on anyone. You needn’t have any of them if you prefer. But with that kind of theology, it’s doubtful you’ll have the privilege of seeing the lame walk. Theology has clearly birthed unbelief in that case. You would like to believe me, that God healed a lame sister, but you cannot. Your theology has robbed you of the faith to believe.

There it is, working of miracles.

Believe what you like and deny what the scriptures say. Goodbye

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Believe what you like and deny what the scriptures say. Goodbye

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. But if you don’t even want any spiritual gifts, then He won’t force them upon you.

All the best!

It needs to be said, I’m not the one who is confused about spiritual gifts.

 

[Mungo]

There is a lot of confusion about the gifts of the Spirit because there are two different operations of the Holy Spirit corresponding to two different ways of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Very briefly:
The first operation is the "internal" operation of the Spirit when the Spirit comes within us. The gifts here are the sanctifying gifts, given for salvation and spiritual growth. This is when we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism (Acts 2:38).
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?(1Cor 6:19)

The second operation is the "external" operation of the Spirit when the Spirit comes upon us (e.g. at Pentecost). The gifts here are the gifts for the work of ministry and building up of the Church, such as healing, speaking in tongues, (1Cor 8:1-10 & 1Cor 12:4-11)
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God (1Cor 2:12)

These external gifts do exist today.

 

[DJT_47]

There is a lot of confusion about the gifts of the Spirit because there are two different operations of the Holy Spirit corresponding to two different ways of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Very briefly:
The first operation is the "internal" operation of the Spirit when the Spirit comes within us. The gifts here are the sanctifying gifts, given for salvation and spiritual growth. This is when we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism (Acts 2:38).
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?(1Cor 6:19)

The second operation is the "external" operation of the Spirit when the Spirit comes upon us (e.g. at Pentecost). The gifts here are the gifts for the work of ministry and building up of the Church, such as healing, speaking in tongues, (1Cor 8:1-10 & 1Cor 12:4-11)
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God (1Cor 2:12)

These external gifts do exist today.

How do they or can they exist today when they were made manifest by the laying on of the hands of the apostles?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is a lot of confusion about the gifts of the Spirit because there are two different operations of the Holy Spirit corresponding to two different ways of receiving the Holy Spirit.

Very briefly:
The first operation is the "internal" operation of the Spirit when the Spirit comes within us. The gifts here are the sanctifying gifts, given for salvation and spiritual growth. This is when we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism (Acts 2:38).
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?(1Cor 6:19)

The second operation is the "external" operation of the Spirit when the Spirit comes upon us (e.g. at Pentecost). The gifts here are the gifts for the work of ministry and building up of the Church, such as healing, speaking in tongues, (1Cor 8:1-10 & 1Cor 12:4-11)
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God (1Cor 2:12)

These external gifts do exist today.

There isn’t confusion about the gifts of the Holy Spirit except by those who haven’t any and need to find a good reason.

 

[Mungo]

How do they or can they exist today when they were made manifest by the laying on of the hands of the apostles?

1. The laying on of hands was only one way that the external gifts of the Spirit was given.
The incident with Cornelius shows that God gave him and his household external gifts without the apostles laying on of hands:
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. (Acts 10:44-46).

2. The apostles passed on their authority to successors. That is probably another issue but consider this. Paul writes to Timothy instructing him on appointing bishops in 1Tim 3:1-2.

Then later he writes
Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. (1Tim 4:14)

Then Paul writes in the same letter:
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands.., (1Tim 5:22)

So Timothy has the authority to appoint bishops and lay on hands.

3. Paul writes to the Romans
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching (Rom 12:5-7)
Paul is assuming that the Roman Christians have external gifts of the Spirit.

Paul is also clear that various (external) are given variously to many individuals ( 1Cor 12:4-11, Eph 4:11).
He says in 1Cor 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Why should those gifts for the common good be only needed for the apostolic era?

Jesus told the apostles "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20)

Clearly that could not be done (and was not done) by the apostles alone. It is an ongoing work. So the gifts for the common good must be ongoing also

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1. The laying on of hands was only one way that the external gifts of the Spirit was given.
The incident with Cornelius shows that God gave him and his household external gifts without the apostles laying on of hands:
While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. (Acts 10:44-46).

So that ends the doctrine that only the apostles’ laying on of hands does it. God isn’t so restricted.

2. The apostles passed on their authority to successors. That is probably another issue but consider this. Paul writes to Timothy instructing him on appointing bishops in 1Tim 3:1-2.

Where does scripture say this? That scripture doesn’t mention any such procedure.

Then later he writes
Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. (1Tim 4:14)

Elders, not apostles, ELDERS

Then Paul writes in the same letter:
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands.., (1Tim 5:22)

Wise advise

So Timothy has the authority to appoint bishops and lay on hands.

Where did Paul say THAT?

3. Paul writes to the Romans
so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching (Rom 12:5-7)
Paul is assuming that the Roman Christians have external gifts of the Spirit.

Some Christians still do.

Paul is also clear that various (external) are given variously to many individuals ( 1Cor 12:4-11, Eph 4:11).
He says in 1Cor 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Continues to this day.

Why should those gifts for the common good be only needed for the apostolic era?

No reason.

Jesus told the apostles "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20)

Clearly that could not be done (and was not done) by the apostles alone. It is an ongoing work. So the gifts for the common good must be ongoing also

Absolutely!!

 

[Mungo]

Where does scripture say this? That scripture doesn’t mention any such procedure.

In Acts 1 the apostles decided to choose someone to take the place of Judas, quoting psalm 109:8 ‘His office let another take.’
The chosen was "was enrolled with the eleven apostles" (vs 29)

Elders, not apostles, ELDERS

Apostles were elders.

Where did Paul say THAT?

When he tells Timothy about the qualifications to be a bishop.

Similarly in Titus 1:7-9-8 and in a previous verse (vs 5) he tells Titus to appoint elders in every town as I directed you.
It is clear from the context that elder = bishop.