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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The fate of the unsaved
- Thread starter TimothyW
- Start date
If as you have illustrated in many other posts I have had the pleasure of reading that the wages of sin is in fact death with it being the cessation of life and consciousness and salvation involves being SAVED from the death sentence; it is possible that the answer can be universal salvation since the Bible tells us that both the just and the unjust will be raised from the dead by Jesus.
TimothyW
Member
I'm sorry, I didn't realize. So let's not have a discussion about universal salvation.
We can just discuss the other two.
TimothyW
Member
Tim said:
Eternal conscious separation From God.
“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world.... But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...” (Ephesians 2:1-2,4-5)
Dead. however, still in existence and conscious.
“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:13).
Dead.However,still in existence. Why were they considered dead?
“without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”
“no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God” (Ephesians 4:17-18).
These unbelievers were alive, walking and conscious while they were considered dead, Alienated from the life of God.
The wages of Sin is death. And the verses above clearly show that these dead are in fact conscious and alienated from God.
“But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.”
Isaiah 59:2~~But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world.... But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...” (Ephesians 2:1-2,4-5)
Dead. however, still in existence and conscious.
“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:13).
Dead.However,still in existence. Why were they considered dead?
“without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”
“no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God” (Ephesians 4:17-18).
These unbelievers were alive, walking and conscious while they were considered dead, Alienated from the life of God.
The wages of Sin is death. And the verses above clearly show that these dead are in fact conscious and alienated from God.
“But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.”
Isaiah 59:2~~But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
TimothyW
Member
I found this statement of faith on "rethinkinghell.com", http://www.rethinkinghell.com/about/beliefs
and since it accurately reflects MY "statement of faith" I want to share it here: (I changed the "we" statements to "I" statements, because this is what I believe)
and since it accurately reflects MY "statement of faith" I want to share it here: (I changed the "we" statements to "I" statements, because this is what I believe)
I believe in one God, eternally existent in three persons, revealed to humanity as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the almighty Father, maker of heaven and earth, who sent forth his Son and Spirit into the world to accomplish the divine purpose.
I believe in the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh. We affirm his virgin birth, his sinless human life, his perfect example and teachings, his divine miracles, his substitutionary and atoning death, his bodily resurrection, his ascension, his mediatorial work, and his future, personal return to the earth in power and glory as the rightful king and judge of all people.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, whose indwelling work enables believers to live holy and effective lives in service to the Lord. We affirm his inspiration of the biblical writings, which are the infallible source and authoritative standard for Christian faith and practice.
I affirm the unity of all true believers through the Holy Spirit, the community of the Church, under the headship of Christ.
I believe in the salvation of lost and sinful humankind through the atoning death and subsequent resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, by faith and not by works; and regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
I affirm the future, bodily resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved; those who are saved, to the resurrection of eternal life in the presence of God; those who are unsaved, to face final punishment, consisting ultimately in the destruction of body and soul, a permanent end to life and conscious existence.
I wanted to post this, because sometimes people will say things to me such as "You don't believe in the final punishment of the unsaved because you don't believe they are eternally tormented!" I certainly do believe the unsaved face final and permanent punishment, (Eternal Punishment, Matt 25:46), and this Final, Permanent, and Eternal Punishment is Death, just as the Bible says.
Two main problems with such a position are:
1. It undermines most of what Jesus says about hell, and
2. Non-existence is not punishment, it's simply non-existence.
TimothyW
Member
I disagree. Being destroyed is a punishment. Ask anyone who has been destroyed! Or if the death penalty is not a punishment, why are mass murderers put to death as punishment?
Actually, it agrees with what Jesus said about hell. Read Matthew 10:28. Does it say we should fear the one who will torment both body and soul in Gehenna or does it say "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna".
I like this statement of faith specifically because it doesn't disagree with any scripture at all.
Physical death is not the destruction we're talking about though, is it? We're talking about the final punishment of the wicked. The only way your argument can make sense is if you don't believe in a non-material soul that exists after physical death, in which case you then have other problems.
Jesus said far more about hell than just that. You must take all into account, everything Jesus says, everything the rest of Scripture says. You cannot build a proper understanding of something based on one verse.
It doesn't disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. Whether or not it doesn't actually disagree with Scripture remains to be seen.
chessman
Member
Now you’re talking…
On the other hand, here’s Jesus talking about Hell:
Luke 12:5 (ESV) 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Neither TimothyW or myself have said Hell is not real nor is Hell something not to fear. Frankly, that’s a clearly unbiblical position to take. And Jesus’ parallel message recorded by Matthew:
Matthew 10:28 (ESV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
He [Jesus] doesn’t say “Non-existence [in Hell] is not punishment”, you did. He doesn’t say Hell=torment lost people (humans), either. He says plain and simply Hell is the second death for the lost peole. Which is all I or TimothyW have said about Hell here?
And Jesus talking to John in his vision says about Hell:
And he who was seated on the throne said, …. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur[i.e. Hell] , which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:5-8 ESV)
Again, none of this “non-existence” or torment talk about Hell. 2nd Death is Jesus’ words about Hell, not ours.(Revelation 21:5-8 ESV)
chessman
Member
Why not pick your top two (or more) Scriptures that are Jesus teaching about lost people's final punishment (after their resurrection and judgment) that teach anything different than Matt 10:28 or Rev 21:8 does. Then we'll discuss (here in the A&T section) what Scriptures you speak of that are so counter to these.
Pick one talking about the pre-resurrection treatment of the un-saved and you're missing the point and off-topic ("Fate of the un-saved")
Pick one talking about fallen angels and I'll say the same.
What do you think Jesus meant by "destroy both soul and body in Hell"?
And herein lies one of the main problems in discussions of biblical interpretation. People want to just pick a verse or two, or more, and pit them against other verses. But that simply is not how proper biblical interpretation is done. A proper understanding on any biblical subject must take into account all that Scripture states on that matter, and then provide a coherent understanding. Having said that, I believe there are problems with every position on hell that I know of.
I am not going to post anything on the matter as people need to do proper study. I am not going to do it for them.
chessman
Member
Not me, not this "people". I was just lighting the request a little for you to back up your statement about Jesus' words concerning Hell and the "fate of the unsaved" with one or two Scriptures that have Jesus speaking about the fate of the un-saved in Hell in anyway other than He does in Matt 10:28 and Rev 21:8 (death of both the body and soul) concerning the "Fate of the un-saved".
I've pretty much read and studied all of what Jesus says about Hell. I was just wondering if I've missed one or two, because you sure sounded like you knew of some ("most", in fact) that would give an alternate or more "proper understanding of any biblical subject" and/or "coherent understanding" other than a "2nd death" awaits the un-saved in Hell.
No problem.
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TimothyW
Member
As you say, that remains to be seen. Does Romans 6:23 say "Physical" Death, "Spiritual" Death, or just "Death"? It says "the wages of sin is death" so I believe that the wages of sin is death. If it meant eternal torment, it would have said eternal torment.
Absolutely!
Actually, "my" argument is that the Bible means what it says. If the soul survives death, then a contradiction arises within Scripture, because Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul who sins shall die. If a soul can't die, then the scriptures are false. If the soul can die, then there is no problem with what I believe. Also if the soul is not destroyed in Gehenna, if it can't be, then Jesus wasn't telling us the truth when he said that we should fear the one who CAN destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.
This is not based on just one verse. I do take everything Jesus says into account. If Jesus ever said that the lost will be sent to Hell where they will be tormented alive forever, please let me know the chapter and verse. I don't believe He ever said that.
I know. It doesn't disagree with Scripture either. But if you wish to share your interpretation of scripture that you think disagrees with my SOF, let me know, we can talk.
Well, I've studied this thoroughly and it doesn't disagree with scripture. Whether or not you are able to come up with scripture that disagrees remains to be seen.
TimothyW
Member
I can post a lot more proof of my position than I have. For brevity's sake, I haven't posted all the research I have done. I have found that people don't read it anyway.
Please do not ASSUME that I've gotten this from only one or two verses. The doctrine that there is only eternal life in Christ and nowhere else (not even in Hell being tortured) is written throughout scripture.
There is not even one verse in the Bible that says the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever. Please post the verse that says that if I'm wrong about that.
TimothyW
Member
Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:
Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.
4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).
5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.
7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.
8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.
15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.
16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.
17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?
19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).
24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.
25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.
1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.
2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.
3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.
4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."
Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).
5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.
7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.
8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.
9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.
10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.
11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.
12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.
15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.
16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.
17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.
18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?
19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).
24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.
25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.
The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.