The Rosary and apparitions....

[God Is My Judge]

This thread is to discuss the request of the Blessed Mother to pray the Rosary and what her purported apparitions mean. Isay purported because according to Catholic doctrine no believer is required to believe them. However, if they are true, is it required that all followers of Christ believe and uphold the truth? Do her apparitions mean the Catholic Church is special and above all others or are her apparitions admonishments? How can we know if they are true and not lying spirits out to deceive believers? I think this should turn out to be a heated debate, wallflowers need not engage.

Let's start with the first purported apparition.

THE FIRST MARIAN APPARITION: OUR LADY OF THE PILLAR​

The first Marian apparition in history appeared to Saint James the Apostle, the brother of Saint John the Evangelist, on the bank of the river Ebro in Saragossa, Spain. Unlike every other recorded apparition, this one supposedly took place during the earthly life of the Mother of God. However, that would conflict with her Assumption at the Ascension of Christ, IMHO. I think the issue is, does the tradition of this apparition conflict with the truth scripture reveals and can it be proven? Afterall, we are told in scripture to test all spirits, that would include apparitions for God has not left His children without the proper tools as to not be deceived.
1 John 4:1-2
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,…
It is more than fair to say then, there must be hallmarks in true apparitions that a child of God may know of their legitimacy.
The Lady of the Pillars
According to tradition, she had promised Saint James that when he needed it most in his difficult mission to the pagans in today’s Spain, she would appear to him to encourage him.

In the year 40 A.D., while praying one night on the Ebro bank, the Virgin appeared with the Child Jesus standing on a pillar and asked Saint James and his eight disciples to build a church on the site, promising that “it will stand from that moment until the end of time in order that God may work miracles and wonders through my intercession for all those who place themselves under my patronage.”

The church of Our Lady of the Pillar in Zaragoza, is the first church dedicated to Mary in history and it remains standing to this day, having survived invasions and wars – in the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939 three bombs were dropped on the church and none of them exploded.

Our Lady is also said to have given the small wooden statue of the apparition to Saint James which now stands on a pillar in the church.
Concerning the statue, is it ok to make an image of something shown to you by heaven like the Ark of the OC?
According to the tradition:
Nuestra Señora del Pilar is the patron of Spain and all Hispanic peoples. October 12, 1492, the feast of the Virgin of the Pillar, is the day Christopher Columbus first sighted American land, and when the first Mass in the Americas was celebrated.

What say you?

 

[Mungo]

This thread is to discuss the request of the Blessed Mother to pray the Rosary and what her purported apparitions mean. Isay purported because according to Catholic doctrine no believer is required to believe them. However, if they are true, is it required that all followers of Christ believe and uphold the truth? Do her apparitions mean the Catholic Church is special and above all others or are her apparitions admonishments? How can we know if they are true and not lying spirits out to deceive believers? I think this should turn out to be a heated debate, wallflowers need not engage.

Let's start with the first purported apparition.

THE FIRST MARIAN APPARITION: OUR LADY OF THE PILLAR​

The first Marian apparition in history appeared to Saint James the Apostle, the brother of Saint John the Evangelist, on the bank of the river Ebro in Saragossa, Spain. Unlike every other recorded apparition, this one supposedly took place during the earthly life of the Mother of God. However, that would conflict with her Assumption at the Ascension of Christ, IMHO. I think the issue is, does the tradition of this apparition conflict with the truth scripture reveals and can it be proven? Afterall, we are told in scripture to test all spirits, that would include apparitions for God has not left His children without the proper tools as to not be deceived.
1 John 4:1-2
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,…
It is more than fair to say then, there must be hallmarks in true apparitions that a child of God may know of their legitimacy.
The Lady of the Pillars
According to tradition, she had promised Saint James that when he needed it most in his difficult mission to the pagans in today’s Spain, she would appear to him to encourage him.

In the year 40 A.D., while praying one night on the Ebro bank, the Virgin appeared with the Child Jesus standing on a pillar and asked Saint James and his eight disciples to build a church on the site, promising that “it will stand from that moment until the end of time in order that God may work miracles and wonders through my intercession for all those who place themselves under my patronage.”

The church of Our Lady of the Pillar in Zaragoza, is the first church dedicated to Mary in history and it remains standing to this day, having survived invasions and wars – in the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939 three bombs were dropped on the church and none of them exploded.

Our Lady is also said to have given the small wooden statue of the apparition to Saint James which now stands on a pillar in the church.
Concerning the statue, is it ok to make an image of something shown to you by heaven like the Ark of the OC?
According to the tradition:
Nuestra Señora del Pilar is the patron of Spain and all Hispanic peoples. October 12, 1492, the feast of the Virgin of the Pillar, is the day Christopher Columbus first sighted American land, and when the first Mass in the Americas was celebrated.

What say you?

I have never heard of "Our Lady of The Pillar".

If you want to discuss Marian apparitions I suggest you keep to those that have been investigated and approved as authentic by the Catholic Church.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I have never heard of "Our Lady of The Pillar".

If you want to discuss Marian apparitions I suggest you keep to those that have been investigated and approved as authentic by the Catholic

What are you talking about (Brooklyn accent) LOL! The apparition of Our Lady of the Pillar was accepted as canonical by Pope Innocent XIII in 1723. It's up for discussion. Just because you haven't heard of it "Catholic Overseer" doesn't mean anything. I guess we can't all know all things Catholic. Pope Clement XII "allowed" celebration of the feast of Our Lady of the Pillar all over the Spanish empire in 1730. I mean unless you are bigoted against Spain and all, it is a well-known apparition. In the Americas the feast day of Oct.12 coincides with the discovery of the Americas, Mary was later named as Patroness of the Hispanic world under this title.

 

[Mungo]

What are you talking about (Brooklyn accent) LOL! The apparition of Our Lady of the Pillar was accepted as canonical by Pope Innocent XIII in 1723. It's up for discussion. Just because you haven't heard of it "Catholic Overseer" doesn't mean anything. I guess we can't all know all things Catholic. Pope Clement XII "allowed" celebration of the feast of Our Lady of the Pillar all over the Spanish empire in 1730. I mean unless you are bigoted against Spain and all, it is a well-known apparition. In the Americas the feast day of Oct.12 coincides with the discovery of the Americas, Mary was later named as Patroness of the Hispanic world under this title.

OK.

 

[Scripture Says]

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;

If you want to discuss Marian apparitions I suggest you keep to those that have been investigated and approved as authentic by the Catholic church

The apparition of Our Lady of the Pillar was accepted as canonical by Pope Innocent XIII in 1723


Ofcourse this isnt what is meant by test the sprirts

 

[GodsGrace]

I have something to ask that I've always wondered about.

Why have only Catholics had visions of Mary?

I believe a saint was told Mary was assumed into heaven. This probably made the Pope decide to create another dogma.

If there are other reasons for believing in the Immac Conc, why wait till then?

Scripture Says
Mungo

 

[Mungo]

I have something to ask that I've always wondered about.

Why have only Catholics had visions of Mary?

Perhaps because only Catholics belong to the Church that her son founded.

I believe a saint was told Mary was assumed into heaven. This probably made the Pope decide to create another dogma.

If there are other reasons for believing in the Immac Conc, why wait till then?

Scripture Says
Mungo

I'll need to do some research, so I'll come back to those later.
I'm out most of tomorrow so it might be a couple of days.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps because only Catholics belong to the Church that her son founded.



I'll need to do some research, so I'll come back to those later.
I'm out most of tomorrow so it might be a couple of days.

No problem.
I can't remember the saint's name. Not important.
IOW
Why wasn't this new dogma based on what was previously known, for instance The Protevangelium Of James.

 

[Mungo]

No problem.
I can't remember the saint's name. Not important.
IOW
Why wasn't this new dogma based on what was previously known, for instance The Protevangelium Of James.

I apologies in advance for the length of this.

I remember seeing Richard Dawkins on television saying something like "One day the Pope makes up a new dogma when eating breakfast and all the Catholic in the world have to believe it." A completely stupid comment. The development and formal proclamation of dogma takes time (often a long time) while the Church, not just the Pope, contemplates it.

I don't know whether a Saint did tell the Pope that Mary was assumed into heaven. But if one did it would only be a tiny factor in the decision regarding the promulgation of the dogma.

I will quote from the actual Apostolic Constitutions to make my points. They are very wordy but contain 4 points, though not necessarily in a nice tidy order.
1. The history of the belief & scripture.
2. The petitions of bishops and laity for the dogma to be promulgated
3. Preparation and consultation of the Pope with all the bishops of the Church
4. The formal promulgation & definition

Let's start with the Immaculate Conception as that came first. I will quote from the actual Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (in red) to make my points.

1. The belief that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin is an ancient and scriptural belief.
And indeed, illustrious documents of venerable antiquity, of both the Eastern and the Western Church, very forcibly testify that this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin, which was daily more and more splendidly explained, stated and confirmed by the highest authority, teaching, zeal, knowledge, and wisdom of the Church, and which was disseminated among all peoples and nations of the Catholic world in a marvelous manner — this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine.

The Fathers and writers of the Church, well versed in the heavenly Scriptures, had nothing more at heart than to vie with one another in preaching and teaching in many wonderful ways the Virgin’s supreme sanctity, dignity, and immunity from all stain of sin, and her renowned victory over the most foul enemy of the human race. This they did in the books they wrote to explain the Scriptures, to vindicate the dogmas, and to instruct the faithful.

Besides, we must note a fact of the greatest importance indeed. Even the Council of Trent itself, when it promulgated the dogmatic decree concerning original sin, following the testimonies of the Sacred Scriptures, of the Holy Fathers and of the renowned Council, decreed and defined that all men are born infected by original sin; nevertheless, it solemnly declared that it had no intention of including the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, in this decree and in the general extension of its definition. Indeed, considering the times and circumstances, the Fathers of Trent sufficiently intimated by this declaration that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from the original stain; and thus they clearly signified that nothing could be reasonably cited from the Sacred Scriptures, from Tradition, or from the authority of the Fathers, which would in any way be opposed to so great a prerogative of the Blessed Virgin.

Scripture
…..these the Fathers beheld in that ark of Noah, which was built by divine command and escaped entirely safe and sound from the common shipwreck of the whole world;[ Gn. 6:9] in the ladder which Jacob saw reaching from the earth to heaven, by whose rungs the angels of God ascended and descended, and on whose top the Lord himself leaned’[Gn 28:12] in that bush which Moses saw in the holy place burning on all sides, which was not consumed or injured in any way but grew green and blossomed beautifully;[ Ex 3:2] in that impregnable tower before the enemy, from which hung a thousand bucklers and all the armor of the strong;[ Sg 4:4 in that garden enclosed on all sides, which cannot be violated or corrupted by any deceitful plots;[ Sg 4:12] as in that resplendent city of God, which has its foundations on the holy mountains;[ Ps 87:1]
That is just a sample

2. The petitions
Accordingly, from ancient times the bishops of the Church, ecclesiastics, religious orders, and even emperors and kings, have earnestly petitioned this Apostolic See to define a dogma of the Catholic Faith the Immaculate Conception of the most holy Mother of God. These petitions were renewed in these our own times; they were especially brought to the attention of Gregory XVI, our predecessor of happy memory, and to ourselves, not only by bishops, but by the secular clergy and religious orders, by sovereign rulers and by the faithful.

3. Preparation and consultation
That we might proceed with great prudence, we established a special congregation of our venerable brethren, the cardinals of the holy Roman Church, illustrious for their piety, wisdom, and knowledge of the sacred scriptures. We also selected priests, both secular and regular, well trained in the theological sciences, that they should most carefully consider all matters pertaining to the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin and make known to us their opinion.

Although we knew the mind of the bishops from the petitions which we had received from them, namely, that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin be finally defined, nevertheless, on February 2, 1849, we sent an Encyclical Letter from Gaeta to all our venerable brethren, the bishops of the Catholic world, that they should offer prayers to God and then tell us in writing what the piety an devotion of their faithful was in regard to the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God. We likewise inquired what the bishops themselves thought about defining this doctrine and what their wishes were in regard to making known with all possible solemnity our supreme judgment.

4. The formal promulgation & definition
……..by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: “We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

The dogma of the Asssumption - Munificentissimus Deus went through the same process but I won't go thought it all except for this part that shows that this dogma follows on from the Immaculate Conception.

4.That privilege [the bodily Assumption into heaven of Mary] has shone forth in new radiance since our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the loving Mother of God's Immaculate Conception. These two privileges are most closely bound to one another. Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through Baptism has been born again in a supernatural way has conquered sin and death through the same Christ. Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul.

5. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body.

6. Thus, when it was solemnly proclaimed that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was from the very beginning free from the taint of original sin, the minds of the faithful were filled with a stronger hope that the day might soon come when the dogma of the Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven would also be defined by the Church's supreme teaching authority.

 

[GodsGrace]

I apologies in advance for the length of this.

I remember seeing Richard Dawkins on television saying something like "One day the Pope makes up a new dogma when eating breakfast and all the Catholic in the world have to believe it." A completely stupid comment. The development and formal proclamation of dogma takes time (often a long time) while the Church, not just the Pope, contemplates it.

I don't know whether a Saint did tell the Pope that Mary was assumed into heaven. But if one did it would only be a tiny factor in the decision regarding the promulgation of the dogma.

I will quote from the actual Apostolic Constitutions to make my points. They are very wordy but contain 4 points, though not necessarily in a nice tidy order.
1. The history of the belief & scripture.
2. The petitions of bishops and laity for the dogma to be promulgated
3. Preparation and consultation of the Pope with all the bishops of the Church
4. The formal promulgation & definition

Let's start with the Immaculate Conception as that came first. I will quote from the actual Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus (in red) to make my points.

1. The belief that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin is an ancient and scriptural belief.
And indeed, illustrious documents of venerable antiquity, of both the Eastern and the Western Church, very forcibly testify that this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin, which was daily more and more splendidly explained, stated and confirmed by the highest authority, teaching, zeal, knowledge, and wisdom of the Church, and which was disseminated among all peoples and nations of the Catholic world in a marvelous manner — this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine.

The Fathers and writers of the Church, well versed in the heavenly Scriptures, had nothing more at heart than to vie with one another in preaching and teaching in many wonderful ways the Virgin’s supreme sanctity, dignity, and immunity from all stain of sin, and her renowned victory over the most foul enemy of the human race. This they did in the books they wrote to explain the Scriptures, to vindicate the dogmas, and to instruct the faithful.

Besides, we must note a fact of the greatest importance indeed. Even the Council of Trent itself, when it promulgated the dogmatic decree concerning original sin, following the testimonies of the Sacred Scriptures, of the Holy Fathers and of the renowned Council, decreed and defined that all men are born infected by original sin; nevertheless, it solemnly declared that it had no intention of including the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, in this decree and in the general extension of its definition. Indeed, considering the times and circumstances, the Fathers of Trent sufficiently intimated by this declaration that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from the original stain; and thus they clearly signified that nothing could be reasonably cited from the Sacred Scriptures, from Tradition, or from the authority of the Fathers, which would in any way be opposed to so great a prerogative of the Blessed Virgin.

Scripture
…..these the Fathers beheld in that ark of Noah, which was built by divine command and escaped entirely safe and sound from the common shipwreck of the whole world;[ Gn. 6:9] in the ladder which Jacob saw reaching from the earth to heaven, by whose rungs the angels of God ascended and descended, and on whose top the Lord himself leaned’[Gn 28:12] in that bush which Moses saw in the holy place burning on all sides, which was not consumed or injured in any way but grew green and blossomed beautifully;[ Ex 3:2] in that impregnable tower before the enemy, from which hung a thousand bucklers and all the armor of the strong;[ Sg 4:4 in that garden enclosed on all sides, which cannot be violated or corrupted by any deceitful plots;[ Sg 4:12] as in that resplendent city of God, which has its foundations on the holy mountains;[ Ps 87:1]
That is just a sample

2. The petitions
Accordingly, from ancient times the bishops of the Church, ecclesiastics, religious orders, and even emperors and kings, have earnestly petitioned this Apostolic See to define a dogma of the Catholic Faith the Immaculate Conception of the most holy Mother of God. These petitions were renewed in these our own times; they were especially brought to the attention of Gregory XVI, our predecessor of happy memory, and to ourselves, not only by bishops, but by the secular clergy and religious orders, by sovereign rulers and by the faithful.

3. Preparation and consultation
That we might proceed with great prudence, we established a special congregation of our venerable brethren, the cardinals of the holy Roman Church, illustrious for their piety, wisdom, and knowledge of the sacred scriptures. We also selected priests, both secular and regular, well trained in the theological sciences, that they should most carefully consider all matters pertaining to the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin and make known to us their opinion.

Although we knew the mind of the bishops from the petitions which we had received from them, namely, that the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin be finally defined, nevertheless, on February 2, 1849, we sent an Encyclical Letter from Gaeta to all our venerable brethren, the bishops of the Catholic world, that they should offer prayers to God and then tell us in writing what the piety an devotion of their faithful was in regard to the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God. We likewise inquired what the bishops themselves thought about defining this doctrine and what their wishes were in regard to making known with all possible solemnity our supreme judgment.

4. The formal promulgation & definition
……..by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: “We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

The dogma of the Asssumption - Munificentissimus Deus went through the same process but I won't go thought it all except for this part that shows that this dogma follows on from the Immaculate Conception.

4.That privilege [the bodily Assumption into heaven of Mary] has shone forth in new radiance since our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the loving Mother of God's Immaculate Conception. These two privileges are most closely bound to one another. Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through Baptism has been born again in a supernatural way has conquered sin and death through the same Christ. Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul.

5. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body.

6. Thus, when it was solemnly proclaimed that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was from the very beginning free from the taint of original sin, the minds of the faithful were filled with a stronger hope that the day might soon come when the dogma of the Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven would also be defined by the Church's supreme teaching authority.

Thanks Mungo.
I don't really have any problem with the IC.
It even makes logical sense.
My problem is with the Assumption...it seems to me to be an ending in keeping with all of what came before:
The IC
Painless childbirth for Jesus
Sanctified life
Mother of God

Jesus died and got His glorified body.
From my understanding, Mary never died.
So how does heaven accomadate a flesh and blood body?
Seems impossible to me.

I don't expect you to answer this, just a thought.
BTW, a priest, (met him on a trip - not known to me before that) last summer, told me it's not necessary for me to believe every dogma and I could still call myself a Catholic. This doesn't seem right to me and neither would it seem right to the monk I used to study with (till covid) and also one conservative priest I know. (I wish the monk would start up the lessons again. There were about 15 of us).

 

[JLB]

Perhaps because only Catholics belong to the Church that her son founded.

Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about praying to Mary, or praying to dead people or “Rosary Bead” and “praying the rosary” as a vain repetition, or making statues in the likeness of Mary or “saints” and bowing down to them?






JLB

 

[Mungo]

Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about praying to Mary, or praying to dead people or “Rosary Bead” and “praying the rosary” as a vain repetition, or making statues in the likeness of Mary or “saints” and bowing down to them?



JLB

Those issues are off topic.
If you want to discuss the Papacy - see HERE particularly the thread The Primacy of Peter
And for Mary -Praying to the Saints in Heaven
If they don't fit your questions then please start a new thread.

 

[Mungo]

Thanks Mungo.
I don't really have any problem with the IC.
It even makes logical sense.
My problem is with the Assumption...it seems to me to be an ending in keeping with all of what came before:
The IC
Painless childbirth for Jesus
Sanctified life
Mother of God

Jesus died and got His glorified body.
From my understanding, Mary never died.
So how does heaven accomadate a flesh and blood body?
Seems impossible to me.

As far as I know the Church has never defined whether Mary died or was assumed into heaven before her earthly death. The definition just says that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

As to how someone with a flesh and blood body could exist in heaven, surely Jesus has a flesh and blood body in heaven.
Yes it's glorified but Jesus after the Resurrection showed the apostles he had a real body (Luke 24: 39-43, John 20:20 & 27)

I don't expect you to answer this, just a thought.
BTW, a priest, (met him on a trip - not known to me before that) last summer, told me it's not necessary for me to believe every dogma and I could still call myself a Catholic. This doesn't seem right to me and neither would it seem right to the monk I used to study with (till covid) and also one conservative priest I know. (I wish the monk would start up the lessons again. There were about 15 of us).

Doesn't sound right to me either.
Catholic Answers says this: Dogmas, in contrast to matters of prudential judgment in implementing Church doctrine, are not optional.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about praying to Mary, or praying to dead people or “Rosary Bead” and “praying the rosary” as a vain repetition, or making statues in the likeness of Mary or “saints” and bowing down to them?

JLB

Hey JLB,
Nobody ever said the pope is mentioned in scripture.
However it does mention a hierarchy, which all churches practice to some extent or other.

Another member here gave me grief about this.
I'll tell you what I told him:
Did the world stop turning after Revelation?
Did history just stop?
No. History continued.
The Pope is a historical figure . . . I've explained it so many times I should type something out and just copy and paste.
Something I don't really like to do.

I will, explain it again just for you.
After Acts and the time when the Apostles were travelling to spread Christianity as Jesus had told them to do in Matthew 28:19, churches began to be established all over "the world"....in that region.

They new churches did as Paul had instructed in Timothy...heirarchies were being established to create order and some kind of organization so that the church could flourish.

The highest office was that of Bishop.
There were 5 Bishops that had particularly high power because of the region they represented:
Rome
Jerusalem
Antioch
Constantinople
Alexandria

These 5 Bishops were endearingly called Papa...Pope.
The Pope most respected and to whom the others went for advice was the Pope of Rome...
Peter.

I forget in what year it was decided that there would be only ONE Pope that would be the head of the CC.
That became the Pope of Rome. I believe this was in the 400's. (not sure).

So, basically, once the title Pope became as we know it today...the title Pope does go back to Peter in Rome in the beginning.

That's it. It's history,,,nothing to debate.

The rosary beads and also have a story, but it's of no importance.
Catholics are not supposed to worship saints,,,although some do.
The Catholic Monk I studied with for years said that once a person is dead, that's it - nothing more to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those issues are off topic.
If you want to discuss the Papacy - see HERE particularly the thread The Primacy of Peter
And for Mary -Praying to the Saints in Heaven
If they don't fit your questions then please start a new thread.

oops. Too late.

 

[GodsGrace]

As far as I know the Church has never defined whether Mary died or was assumed into heaven before her earthly death. The definition just says that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

As to how someone with a flesh and blood body could exist in heaven, surely Jesus has a flesh and blood body in heaven.
Yes it's glorified but Jesus after the Resurrection showed the apostles he had a real body (Luke 24: 39-43, John 20:20 & 27)




Doesn't sound right to me either.
Catholic Answers says this: Dogmas, in contrast to matters of prudential judgment in implementing Church doctrine, are not optional.

I agree re the dogmas.
It would be pretty dishonest of me when I see how committed "true" Catholics are - you know, the one's that know their faith. (although the others are Catholics too).

Re the body discussion.
Jesus appeared and disappeared.
He might have walked through doors, can't remember right now.
He ate and had scars too however.
So, I don't know if we can really understand what a resurrected or glorified body is.

I seem to remember that Mary did not experience death.
But it's not a hill I have time to climb...
I'm sure it's in the Advent Encycl. but those articles take forever to get through and I've been sick and have lots of catching up to do---home and here.

blessings.

 

[JLB]

Those issues are off topic.

You made the statements and therefore the topic so I asking you ...


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about praying to Mary, or praying to dead people or “Rosary Bead” and “praying the rosary” as a vain repetition, or making statues in the likeness of Mary or “saints” and bowing down to them?




JLB

 

[Mungo]

You made the statements and therefore the topic so I asking you ...


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about a “Pope” ruling over the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ from Rome?


Can you show us in scripture where Jesus Christ or Paul or Peter or any Apostles ever taught anything about praying to Mary, or praying to dead people or “Rosary Bead” and “praying the rosary” as a vain repetition, or making statues in the likeness of Mary or “saints” and bowing down to them?




JLB

I told you those issues are off topic.
If you want to discuss the Papacy - see HERE particularly the thread The Primacy of Peter
And for Mary -Praying to the Saints in Heaven
If they don't fit your questions then please start a new thread.

If you repeat this I will delete your post.

 

[JLB]

Perhaps because only Catholics belong to the Church that her son founded.

Please show us from the scripture where Jesus said Catholics belong to the Church He founded,



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Please show us from the scripture where Jesus said Catholics belong to the Church He founded,



JLB

Hi JLB,
Don't give me grief!
Did you read my post about the title POPE?
If you check out church history, you'll find that it's correct.

I know you want an answer from Mungo ...
but here's my two cents.

Catholics DO belong to the church Jesus founded...
At least, the way it was back then.

The Apostles passed on their teachings to the next generation, and so forth.
When the term Catholic (universal) began to be used, it was at that time.

It was coined by Ignatius of Antioch - probably my favorite church father.
He knew John and was taught by Peter, and most probably John too.

Let me find a link, please read it.

The first known use of "Catholic" was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD). In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catho... known use of,rich history and several usages.

It's history J, no use fighting it.
It's the ORIGINAL church,
I don't know which one is the TRUE church anymore.

I'm just worried there won't be ANY church pretty soon.