Trinity or just Father and Son?

[Follower Of Christ]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God? From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God." Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

I believe in Father and Son personally. We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity. From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

[hawkman]

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

Not real sure what you are trying to get through to us about the Holy Spirit . Adding to the word of God is a serious accusation, kind of hard for the Nicean Council to defend themselves from what you accuse them of .

Did you know we find the Holy Spirit in the first chapter of the first book of the New Testament !
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

John had something to say about the Holy Spirit .
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

We are given a warning about the Holy Spirit .
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Even King David was empowered by the Holy Spirit .
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Did you know the Holy Spirit can speak for you ? I have seen this happen for myself .
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Then we have the Holy Spirit in the shape of a dove at a very important event .
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Question for you Follower Of Christ , have you received the gift of the Holy Spirit ?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Not real sure what you are trying to get through to us about the Holy Spirit . Adding to the word of God is a serious accusation, kind of hard for the Nicean Council to defend themselves from what you accuse them of .

Did you know we find the Holy Spirit in the first chapter of the first book of the New Testament !
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

John had something to say about the Holy Spirit .
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

We are given a warning about the Holy Spirit .
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Even King David was empowered by the Holy Spirit .
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Did you know the Holy Spirit can speak for you ? I have seen this happen for myself .
Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Then we have the Holy Spirit in the shape of a dove at a very important event .
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Question for you Follower Of Christ , have you received the gift of the Holy Spirit ?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I was originally baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost as an Orthodox Christian when young and went living a life of sin regardless. Much later I have repented truthfully, and yes I have the Holy Ghost and I have it when I repented towards God and believed that Christ died on the sins for me and through his shed blood I have access to the throne of God with Christ as an intercessor for me. I am not blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

The way I see it the trinity has been accepted by a majority of Christendom for two millennia and I know how the harlot church operates. Read Proverbs 7 for an analogy. Anyone who gets between me and Christ, whether pope, or self-appointed apostle I totally ignore. And just because the Nicean council got together and decided on that means nothing to me. I am told by Paul to prove all things and that is what I shall do.

Many are called, but few are chosen. God calls us at his own time and we obey the baptism of the Holy Ghost which is poured upon us for he washes us by the Holy Ghost. It is possible to grieve the Holy Ghost by continuing to sin and removing righteousness from our life. Let me finish with Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

What I am serving you right now is spiritual meat. If someone’s stomach can’t handle it then so be it.

 

[Free]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God?

The image of God would be his communicable attributes: love, goodness, kindness, being creative, the ability to reason, compassion, justice, etc. Although, we do these things imperfectly and to a lesser degree than God.

From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

First, this is post-incarnation, post-resurrection with the Son in his glorified body. The Son will likely remain the God-man for eternity. Second, we know that the Son “was in the form of God” but then entered time, coming to earth and being “born in the likeness of men . . . in human form" (Phil 2:6-8).

So, we have the two forms being contrasted, where Jesus’s body is clearly human form. We know that God is spirit (John 4:24), which means the Son would have been only spirit prior to the Incarnation. While there are theophanies in Scripture, there is nothing to suggest that the Father and preincarnate Son actually existed in a form resembling humans.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God."

But, why should the Holy Spirit have to be seen as having "the image of the son of man"? Spirit is spirit, not man.

Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Not quite true:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (ESV)

Apart from that, the Holy Spirit is certainly found. However, the focus is always on the Father and the Son, as one of the Spirit's main roles is to bring glory to Jesus, who then brings glory to the Father.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council.

So, at worst, we can neither count it nor discount it. However, as it is, it is consistent with the full revelation of who God is and so is likely original.

And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

But should that matter? The Holy Spirit is spirit and not human. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that the Father is in human form or shape. The Holy Spirit also descended on Jesus like a dove, but that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit is a dove.

The question for you is: who or what is the Holy Spirit?

In John 14:16 Jesus mentions "another Helper," which would mean one similar to him (“Helper"), yet distinct ("another"). It is important that "Helper" or "Comforter" is the Greek parakeltos, or Paraclete, which is best translated as "advocate" (see 1 John 2:1). Only persons advocate. Similarly, Rom 8:26 speaks of the Spirit as interceding for us, which, again, is the domain of persons.

Here is a bit of a summary on why the Holy Spirit is a “person”:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are all actions of personal agency.

I believe in Father and Son personally.

Who is the Son?

We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity.

The Trinity is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean it requires a PhD. No one can fully comprehend it—it’s a mystery—but we can understand certain things. The Bible clearly teaches:

1. There was, is, and ever will be only one true God.
2. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit and neither is the Son the Holy Spirit—three divine persons.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—coequal, coeternal, consubstantial.

Those are what the doctrine of the Trinity takes into account.

From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

We should keep that in context:

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (ESV)

We can see that it doesn't have anything to do with any revelation about the nature of God. It's about finding our rest in Christ. So, we cannot use it to mean that all things in Scripture are easy to understand and anything complex and ultimately incomprehensible cannot be of God, particularly that the infinite God should be able to be fully comprehended by the finite mind. If a person can fully comprehend God, then their god is one of their own making.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

The image of God would be his communicable attributes: love, goodness, kindness, being creative, the ability to reason, compassion, justice, etc. Although, we do these things imperfectly and to a lesser degree than God.


First, this is post-incarnation, post-resurrection with the Son in his glorified body. The Son will likely remain the God-man for eternity. Second, we know that the Son “was in the form of God” but then entered time, coming to earth and being “born in the likeness of men . . . in human form" (Phil 2:6-8).

So, we have the two forms being contrasted, where Jesus’s body is clearly human form. We know that God is spirit (John 4:24), which means the Son would have been only spirit prior to the Incarnation. While there are theophanies in Scripture, there is nothing to suggest that the Father and preincarnate Son actually existed in a form resembling humans.


But, why should the Holy Spirit have to be seen as having "the image of the son of man"? Spirit is spirit, not man.


Not quite true:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (ESV)

Apart from that, the Holy Spirit is certainly found. However, the focus is always on the Father and the Son, as one of the Spirit's main roles is to bring glory to Jesus, who then brings glory to the Father.


So, at worst, we can neither count it nor discount it. However, as it is, it is consistent with the full revelation of who God is and so is likely original.


But should that matter? The Holy Spirit is spirit and not human. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that the Father is in human form or shape. The Holy Spirit also descended on Jesus like a dove, but that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit is a dove.

The question for you is: who or what is the Holy Spirit?

In John 14:16 Jesus mentions "another Helper," which would mean one similar to him (“Helper"), yet distinct ("another"). It is important that "Helper" or "Comforter" is the Greek parakeltos, or Paraclete, which is best translated as "advocate" (see 1 John 2:1). Only persons advocate. Similarly, Rom 8:26 speaks of the Spirit as interceding for us, which, again, is the domain of persons.

Here is a bit of a summary on why the Holy Spirit is a “person”:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7,
Speaks: Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: Rom 8:26-27, 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29

And on it goes. These are all actions of personal agency.


Who is the Son?


The Trinity is a mystery, but that doesn’t mean it requires a PhD. No one can fully comprehend it—it’s a mystery—but we can understand certain things. The Bible clearly teaches:

1. There was, is, and ever will be only one true God.
2. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit and neither is the Son the Holy Spirit—three divine persons.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—coequal, coeternal, consubstantial.

Those are what the doctrine of the Trinity takes into account.


We should keep that in context:

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (ESV)

We can see that it doesn't have anything to do with any revelation about the nature of God. It's about finding our rest in Christ. So, we cannot use it to mean that all things in Scripture are easy to understand and anything complex and ultimately incomprehensible cannot be of God, particularly that the infinite God should be able to be fully comprehended by the finite mind. If a person can fully comprehend God, then their god is one of their own making.

Thank you for your reply, it has given me a lot of food for thought. I must dwell in this for a bit then get back to you.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I only have time for this reply right now but shall reply at more length later. Anyway:

From John 1:1-3 we are told that all things were made through the Word later to become the Son. From, 1 John 1:3 we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. Now the Son sits on the right hand side of the Father in third heaven outside of time and space while the Holy Spirit roams the Earth and physical universe. Related to this, the Spirit in my understanding is the most important ingredient/operation of God in time and space and if you grieve the Spirit you grieve God, hence the blasphemy warning by Christ. But what I am trying to say is that the Spirit is subjugated to God the Father and God the Son.

Let me clarify – the issue of trinity gets clarified when we understand the process of salvation for humans. The Father calls us by John 6:44 and if we believe in Christ’s message by accepting him he shall be an intercessor for us by drawing us near to God from Hebrews 7:25. The Holy Spirit is therefore the ambassador/guide of God and Christ on Earth bearing witness to our acts. We are saved if the Holy Spirit testifies that our faith and works are aligned with Christ. From Galatians 2:20 “It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.” Hence, if we are imbued with the Holy Spirit, it represents Father and Son for us here on Earth so Christ through the Holy Spirit lives in us even though Christ is now in third heaven.

So from 1 Peter 1:2 we are elect exiles according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (John 6:44) for obedience to Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:25) in the sanctification of the Spirit (the ambassador in the present universe lives in us, and so does Christ through the Holy Spirit from Romans 8:9).

To conclude let me quote Romans 8:9 “You however are not of the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” Hence, Spirit belongs to God and Christ, and I still reject the trinity concept.

 

[hawkman]

I was originally baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost as an Orthodox Christian when young and went living a life of sin regardless. Much later I have repented truthfully, and yes I have the Holy Ghost and I have it when I repented towards God and believed that Christ died on the sins for me and through his shed blood I have access to the throne of God with Christ as an intercessor for me.

Praise God , as it should be for a Christian .

I am not blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

No , I did not think you were at all , although we do have members that try to walk a fine line in that respect .

The way I see it the trinity has been accepted by a majority of Christendom for two millennia and I know how the harlot church operates. Read Proverbs 7 for an analogy. Anyone who gets between me and Christ, whether pope, or self-appointed apostle I totally ignore. And just because the Nicean council got together and decided on that means nothing to me. I am told by Paul to prove all things and that is what I shall do.

Explain to me where the Nicean Council gets it wrong in respect to the Holy Spirit and what harm that does to Christianity as a whole . If you don't mind that is . I am trying to grasp your position .

If you don't eat your meat you can't have any pudding .

 

[eddif]

2 Kings 3:11 kjv
11. For thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.

I can not see the electricity in my body, but I chose to believe it exists.

Out of the belly shall flow rivers of living water. (Spirit)

Jesus became a life giving spirit. Christ in us.

The Word became Flesh
The flesh of Jesus became a quickening spirit.

The tree planted on either side of a river clear as crystal, is the cerebellum.

The 24 ribs cast their crowns with cartlidge ribbons to the Brest bone before the heart.

Seeing the spirit is metaphysical. Your nerve angels carry messages.

Made in the image is an interesting thought, but seeing the ultimate reality takes revelation.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I have the Holy Ghost and I have it when I repented towards God and believed that Christ died on the sins for me and through his shed blood I have access to the throne of God with Christ as an intercessor for me. I am not blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

We will get to examine this more deeply when you return.

Repentance is John the Baptists baptism.

John said that Jesus would Baptize in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Follower Of Christ]

We will get to examine this more deeply when you return.

Repentance is John the Baptists baptism.

John said that Jesus would Baptize in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Sounds good, I am going to be very busy this week with work but shall get back in detail next weekend. I am glad I bumped into this forum this weekend though.

Still as a prelude let me state a couple of things:

In Matthew 21:25 Christ says “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” My question to you is: What is the kingdom of God? How can we be part of it? For sure in the Book of Revelation it is stated that there shall be two resurrections, one prior to millennium when Christ shall come to Earth and one after the millennium when the Father shall come to Earth. And if ye repent and believe the gospel is the only requirement, then why two resurrections for different people to enter the kingdom of God?

Next question that follows: if you are baptized, does that necessarily mean you receive the Holy Ghost? Vice versa do you receive the Holy Ghost even though you are not baptized? We know from Luke 1 that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb so no where there was a need for him to be baptized. That is why he was qualified to baptize Christ.

Next question: What kind of baptism formula and what process? In Acts 2:38 we have “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” So Peter says it’s done in the name of Jesus Christ. From the baptism of the eunuch by Philip we know it is done by immersion.

See where I am leading? Many holy people did not need baptism to be filled with the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, many who are baptized don’t necessarily get the Holy Ghost for it has to be administered by someone who has it in the first place. Even if we are lucky to get someone administering having the Holy Ghost they have to use the right formula and immersion process.

I agree that baptism of John was about repentance and baptism of Christ is about being immersed in the Holy Ghost so it’s superior. But everyone gets caught up in the physical act of water immersion and forget the spiritual counterpart from Ephesians 5:26 “That he might sanctify and cleanse it (church) with the washing of water by the word”. All this talk about need for physical baptism kind of misses the point and I would like to compare it to the Old Covenant rituals especially the way I have witnessed it in Orthodox churches.

I talked more than I planned but to conclude my prelude, I want to state that it’s crucial to believe only in Father and Son for baptism to work. And by baptism, I mean the spiritual kind where the Holy Ghost washes us clean. And the Holy Ghost washes us clean after we repent (reject our carnal nature and agree it is contrary to God) and believe the gospel (that Christ lives in us through the Holy Spirit and when resurrected we shall be with Father and Son reigning here on earth forever, not somewhere else in heaven). And let's not forget that the Holy Ghost can abandon us if we think we have a free license to go on sinning.

2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Personally, my Orthodox Christian baptism did not do me any good except that it made my family happy and gave people a good excuse to have a feast. Hehe, I remember carrying this poor lamb on my shoulders after the baptism and he was shivering and crying so much. I did not touch the meat of that lamb that feast. And where I am from we don't do puddings. So basically, I fasted that day.

For more let's talk next weekend. Unless I am banned from here for so called heretical views.

 

[Who Me]

So what is the image of God?

God thr Father is Spirit, as Jesus said, No one has seen the Father but the Son.
The Spirit also does not have a physical body, so the image of God cannot mean that we physically look like God, but rather that we have chariteristics like those God has.
We are moral, rational, emotional, spiritual beings.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God? From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God." Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

I believe in Father and Son personally. We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity. From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

The Holy Spirit is God's presence on earth, He was hovering above the water at the beginning before Adam was created, Gen. 1:2. The real question is how to perceive Him as a the third person of the Godhead, not just a power or force of God.

 

[eddif]

Sounds good, I am going to be very busy this week with work but shall get back in detail next weekend. I am glad I bumped into this forum this weekend though.

Still as a prelude let me state a couple of things:

In Matthew 21:25 Christ says “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” My question to you is: What is the kingdom of God? How can we be part of it? For sure in the Book of Revelation it is stated that there shall be two resurrections, one prior to millennium when Christ shall come to Earth and one after the millennium when the Father shall come to Earth. And if ye repent and believe the gospel is the only requirement, then why two resurrections for different people to enter the kingdom of God?

Next question that follows: if you are baptized, does that necessarily mean you receive the Holy Ghost? Vice versa do you receive the Holy Ghost even though you are not baptized? We know from Luke 1 that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb so no where there was a need for him to be baptized. That is why he was qualified to baptize Christ.

Next question: What kind of baptism formula and what process? In Acts 2:38 we have “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” So Peter says it’s done in the name of Jesus Christ. From the baptism of the eunuch by Philip we know it is done by immersion.

See where I am leading? Many holy people did not need baptism to be filled with the Holy Ghost. On the other hand, many who are baptized don’t necessarily get the Holy Ghost for it has to be administered by someone who has it in the first place. Even if we are lucky to get someone administering having the Holy Ghost they have to use the right formula and immersion process.

I agree that baptism of John was about repentance and baptism of Christ is about being immersed in the Holy Ghost so it’s superior. But everyone gets caught up in the physical act of water immersion and forget the spiritual counterpart from Ephesians 5:26 “That he might sanctify and cleanse it (church) with the washing of water by the word”. All this talk about need for physical baptism kind of misses the point and I would like to compare it to the Old Covenant rituals especially the way I have witnessed it in Orthodox churches.

I talked more than I planned but to conclude my prelude, I want to state that it’s crucial to believe only in Father and Son for baptism to work. And by baptism, I mean the spiritual kind where the Holy Ghost washes us clean. And the Holy Ghost washes us clean after we repent (reject our carnal nature and agree it is contrary to God) and believe the gospel (that Christ lives in us through the Holy Spirit and when resurrected we shall be with Father and Son reigning here on earth forever, not somewhere else in heaven). And let's not forget that the Holy Ghost can abandon us if we think we have a free license to go on sinning.

2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

Personally, my Orthodox Christian baptism did not do me any good except that it made my family happy and gave people a good excuse to have a feast. Hehe, I remember carrying this poor lamb on my shoulders after the baptism and he was shivering and crying so much. I did not touch the meat of that lamb that feast. And where I am from we don't do puddings. So basically, I fasted that day.

For more let's talk next weekend. Unless I am banned from here for so called heretical views.

I can offer answers on you return. If I answer now it will interfere with your work.

The group here so far is sort of unique. Pick a denomination and one of the group could address that group. We do not however battle each other. We recognize the differences in the 7 churches in Asia and somehow accept the need to teach the gospel to diverse populations. We are not perfect at this, but accept the different needs of others. We are however passionate about our different callings.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Free]

I only have time for this reply right now but shall reply at more length later. Anyway:

From John 1:1-3 we are told that all things were made through the Word later to become the Son. From, 1 John 1:3 we have fellowship with the Father and the Son. Now the Son sits on the right hand side of the Father in third heaven outside of time and space while the Holy Spirit roams the Earth and physical universe. Related to this, the Spirit in my understanding is the most important ingredient/operation of God in time and space and if you grieve the Spirit you grieve God, hence the blasphemy warning by Christ. But what I am trying to say is that the Spirit is subjugated to God the Father and God the Son.

Let me clarify – the issue of trinity gets clarified when we understand the process of salvation for humans. The Father calls us by John 6:44 and if we believe in Christ’s message by accepting him he shall be an intercessor for us by drawing us near to God from Hebrews 7:25. The Holy Spirit is therefore the ambassador/guide of God and Christ on Earth bearing witness to our acts. We are saved if the Holy Spirit testifies that our faith and works are aligned with Christ. From Galatians 2:20 “It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.” Hence, if we are imbued with the Holy Spirit, it represents Father and Son for us here on Earth so Christ through the Holy Spirit lives in us even though Christ is now in third heaven.

So from 1 Peter 1:2 we are elect exiles according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (John 6:44) for obedience to Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:25) in the sanctification of the Spirit (the ambassador in the present universe lives in us, and so does Christ through the Holy Spirit from Romans 8:9).

To conclude let me quote Romans 8:9 “You however are not of the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” Hence, Spirit belongs to God and Christ, and I still reject the trinity concept.

Let’s go back a step or two. Who is the Son? What is his nature?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I have some time right now so I thought I might as well state my position:

Proof that only Father and Son are God can be discerned solely by reading carefully the Book of Revelation.

From Revelation 4:5 we have “…and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire which are the seven spirits of God.” From Revelation 5:6 we have “…I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth”. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is an operation and ingredient of The Father and Son.

Further proof is needed? Look to whom the twenty-four elders bow down to. They only bow down before God and the Lamb. From Revelation 4:10 regarding the Father “The twenty four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever”. From Revelation 5:8 regarding the Son “…the twenty four elders fell down before the lamb, each holding a harp…”. Also from Revelation 5:13 “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea saying “To him who sits on the Throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever.” Again only Father and Son are praised, I do not see the Holy Spirit being praised individually”.

More proof is needed? Let’s continue. In Revelation 6:16-17 we have “Fall on us and hide from the face of him who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

From Revelation 12:17 “…went of to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” Repentance is towards God the Father for having a carnal nature contrary to God’s spiritual nature and faith is on the intercession of Jesus Christ for us when after the resurrection we shall become sons of God for from Revelation 21:7 “The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.”

Shall I continue? From Revelation 14:12 “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” From Revelation 22:1 “Then the angel showed me the river of water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Again only Father and Son have thrones. I see the Holy Spirit flowing from the throne, that is as an operation of God the Father and God the Son. From Revelation 22:3 “No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.”

Recall Paul’s letter to the Colossians. Colossae would supply cold water to Laodicea, but by the time it reached Laodicea it would be lukewarm. Lukewarm water is good for nothing except to be spit out. From Colossians 1:15-18 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Forn by him all things were created, in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities – all things were created through him and for him. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.”

Lastly, from Colossians 2:1-4 “For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face. That their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding, and the knowledge of God’s mystery which is Christ. In whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.”

 

[Runningman]

From Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them." So what is the image of God? From Revelation 1:13 "and in the midst of lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." So Christ looks like human beings albeit infinitely more in splendor. Christ is the Son and the Father also bears his resemblance.

Now what about the Holy Spirit. There is nowhere in the scripture where the Holy Spirit has the image of the son of man. We have instead from Revelation 4:5 "...and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God." Also, in all of the epistles from Paul to Jude introductory greetings are done in the name of the Father and the Son. No where is the Holy Spirit found.

Now some of you shall say, well what about Matthew 28:19? This is where it gets tricky for there is a lot of discussion on whether "the Holy Spirit" was added later by the first Nicean Council. And note from Acts 2:1-4 that the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit after Christ died, where the Holy Spirit appeared like tongues of fire. Again, it did not appear in some human shape laying on hands.

I believe in Father and Son personally. We have to be clear on what we worship. I take the warning in Revelation 22:18-19 seriously and Paul said we must prove all things. No one has been able to convince me so far about the trinity except to point to the deep mystery of it all requiring some PhD in divinity. From Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

The not-so-secret secret about who or what the Holy Spirit is is simply that God the Father is Spirit and holy, thus He is the Holy Spirit. There aren't two or three Holy Spirits. There is the definitive Holy Spirit God, the Father, and there is the gift of the holy spirit, which is an anointing and empowerment, but not the gifting of God giving Himself to be someone's property. I know this is highly nuanced and English translations conflate and confuse this a lot. Trinitarian-based sponsors also will, without fail, translate Bibles that don't quite clarify these subtleties.

Side question, are you a Binitarian?

Acts 1
4And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Side question, are you a Binitarian?

Ah you know this question goes to the core of it all. Christ is the head of the church, and is the only one who makes intercession for me in front of the Father for remission of my sins. I do not belong to any denomination church, though I have investigated some of them in the past. I just read the bible and worship the Father and Son on my own, and I know that the Holy Spirit dwelling in me is the guide in this dark world. For through the Holy Spirit, Christ also dwells in me for the Holy Spirit bears witness of my acts and thoughts and transmits those to third heaven where Christ and Father are.

I try to fellowship with other Christians when I can. I am glad to have found this forum though. And I wish I could read the bible in Ancient Hebrew and Greek but have to make do with an English translation meanwhile.

 

[Runningman]

Ah you know this question goes to the core of it all. Christ is the head of the church, and is the only one who makes intercession for me in front of the Father for remission of my sins. I do not belong to any denomination church, though I have investigated some of them in the past. I just read the bible and worship the Father and Son on my own, and I know that the Holy Spirit dwelling in me is the guide in this dark world. For through the Holy Spirit, Christ also dwells in me for the Holy Spirit bears witness of my acts and thoughts and transmits those to third heaven where Christ and Father are.

I try to fellowship with other Christians when I can. I am glad to have found this forum though. And I wish I could read the bible in Ancient Hebrew and Greek but have to make do with an English translation meanwhile.

Yes, I understand what you mean. The holy spirit does empower us to resist sin when the flesh it weak, but it seems only when we reach that point where we have died, so to speak, is when we can be born again. There is no being born "again" without a dying of sorts. Everyone wants to skip to the being born again in glory part, but few seem to mention that at the beginning there is a loss of life before finding it again. On the other hand, Jesus was simply born from above rather than born again from above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah you know this question goes to the core of it all. Christ is the head of the church, and is the only one who makes intercession for me in front of the Father for remission of my sins. I do not belong to any denomination church, though I have investigated some of them in the past. I just read the bible and worship the Father and Son on my own, and I know that the Holy Spirit dwelling in me is the guide in this dark world. For through the Holy Spirit, Christ also dwells in me for the Holy Spirit bears witness of my acts and thoughts and transmits those to third heaven where Christ and Father are.

I try to fellowship with other Christians when I can. I am glad to have found this forum though. And I wish I could read the bible in Ancient Hebrew and Greek but have to make do with an English translation meanwhile.

Welcome to the forum Follower of Christ.
I've moved your thread to Trinitarianism. No action is required from you.
Just keep on posting.

My question to you would be this:
If Jesus told the Apostles to baptize in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit cannot be God Father. Does that make sense to you?

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Yes, I understand what you mean. The holy spirit does empower us to resist sin when the flesh it weak, but it seems only when we reach that point where we have died, so to speak, is when we can be born again. There is no being born "again" without a dying of sorts. Everyone wants to skip to the being born again in glory part, but few seem to mention that at the beginning there is a loss of life before finding it again. On the other hand, Jesus was simply born from above rather than born again from above.

Spot on! From Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Also, from Luke 9:23 "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." It is an agonizing experience spiritually to take up your cross and know you are dead to the world. And in Roman times, once you take up the cross you are considered a transgressor and subject to deathly punishment. We can't have both ways, of the world and God.

Let me conclude with James 1:7-8 "For that person must not suppose, that he will receive anything from the Lord, he is a double minded man, unstable in all his ways."