Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

[Mungo]

Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin

Although the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has never been formally proclaimed as a Marian Dogma of the Catholic Church, because of its universal acceptance and continued reference to it in Papal documents throughout the history of the Catholic Church (and at the 5th Ecumenical council), it has come to be accepted as a Marian Dogma. Consequently, it can be said that the perpetual virginity of Mary is a Catholic Dogma by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

It was also accepted by the Orthodox and by the early "reformers".

Martin Luther:
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

John Calvin:
"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

Ulrich Zwingli:
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

The next post will start the arguments for Mary's perpetual virginity. There are 6 of them.

 

[Corn Pop]

It's just getting things in the correct context. You are my brother in Christ but not my biological brother born from the same Mother's womb, but you are still my brother. My Brother from my Mother is my Brother but you are also my Brother.

Two brothers yet there is also a difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not true.


Where does it mention John the Baptist as Jesus’s brother?


Elizabeth the relative of Mary, would make Jesus and John the Baptist cousins.




JLB

Does it say that John was His cousin?

 

[JLB]

Does it say that John was His cousin?

Yes.

It says Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, which makes Jesus and John cousins.

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. Luke 1:36



Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:19-21


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56


By using His mother and His brothers and His sisters it’s clear that Mary didnt have sexual relations with Joseph UNTIL after Jesus was born.


Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Matthew 1:24-25



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes.

It says Mary and Elizabeth were cousins, which makes Jesus and John cousins.

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. Luke 1:36

Thanks. I couldn't remember.
Hate using this phone..

Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:19-21


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56


By using His mother and His brothers and His sisters it’s clear that Mary didnt have sexual relations with Joseph UNTIL after Jesus was born.


Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Matthew 1:24-25



JLB

You seem to be 100% sure.
I'm not sure.
I like Luke better for historical facts.
(Instead of Matthew).
That word TILL does seem important.
I was reading something interesting in regards to this but will have to find it again.

I read up on this precovid and I remember thinking it wasn't as easy as it seemed.

If they were half brothers, they still would have been referred to as brothers.

 

[JLB]

Thanks. I couldn't remember.
Hate using this phone..


You seem to be 100% sure.
I'm not sure.
I like Luke better for historical facts.
(Instead of Matthew).
That word TILL does seem important.
I was reading something interesting in regards to this but will have to find it again.

I read up on this precovid and I remember thinking it wasn't as easy as it seemed.

If they were half brothers, they still would have been referred to as brothers.

Yes, as Joseph, Mary’s husband was not Jesus’s father.

Siblings in the house with Jesus.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, as Joseph, Mary’s husband was not Jesus’s father.

Siblings in the house with Jesus.




JLB

Could you read the following and tell me what you think?
It's a Catholic source but sounds reasonable.
It states that James and Joseph (2 brothers mentioned in Matthew) had a different mother named Mary.

Did Jesus Have Brothers? A Fresh Look at the Evidence

Who are the so-called brothers of Jesus that you find mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark? Did Mary really have other children, or are the Gospel writers telling us something different? Watch this video by Dr. Brant Pitre and gain a deeper understanding about the "brothers of Jesus."

catholicproductions.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, as Joseph, Mary’s husband was not Jesus’s father.

Siblings in the house with Jesus.




JLB

I'm more interested in whether or not Jesus had real brothers than the perpetual virginity of Mary.
I mean, how could we know for certain?
Some early church fathers believed she was and some didn't.
So that leaves a person nowhere except what the bible states and that word TILL is important.

If they WERE His real brothers, that would kind of settle the question!
But it would just be interesting to know.

 

[Corn Pop]

I'm more interested in whether or not Jesus had real brothers than the perpetual virginity of Mary.
I mean, how could we know for certain?
Some early church fathers believed she was and some didn't.
So that leaves a person nowhere except what the bible states and that word TILL is important.

If they WERE His real brothers, that would kind of settle the question!
But it would just be interesting to know.

The scriptures are focused on Christ and the gospel of Christ, but in my opinion there is scripture that leads to show Mary and Joseph as husband and wife shared a bed and did pop a few children out of there own after Christ was born, even it's not about there personal life.

Someone reported in scripture that Joseph apparently did not know his own wife until her child was born. So they are obviously saying once Christ was born he knew his wife.

Someone reported at the cross there was a specific woman named Mary who had sons called James and joses.

Someone else reported at the cross there was Mary the Mother of Jesus.

Someone else claimed someone said "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers, James, and Joses".

Hey Jesus your Morher and brothers are here. Obviously there was seperation between his Mother Mary and his brothers and everyone else, because he said other people were also his mother and brothers. So its obvious hes saying not only are these direct family members who he loves are his mother and brothers , but everyone who believes in him and follows him are also his mother and brothers.

 

[GodsGrace]

The scriptures are focused on Christ and the gospel of Christ, but in my opinion there is scripture that leads to show Mary and Joseph as husband and wife shared a bed and did pop a few children out of there own after Christ was born, even it's not about there personal life.

Someone reported in scripture that Joseph apparently did not know his own wife until her child was born. So they are obviously saying once Christ was born he knew his wife.

Someone reported at the cross there was a specific woman named Mary who had sons called James and joses.

Someone else reported at the cross there was Mary the Mother of Jesus.

Someone else claimed someone said "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brothers, James, and Joses".

Hey Jesus your Morher and brothers are here. Apparently there was difference between his holy mother queen of heaven hail Mary, and some people called his brothers, because he said other people were also his mother and brothers. So its obvious hes saying not only are these direct family members who he loves are his mother and brothers , but everyone who believes in him and follows him are also his mother and brothers.

Well, actually I agree with everything you've said.
I've read enough conflicting information that this is not a hill I'm willing to die for.

What I firmly believe is this:
Catholics have made too much of Mary.
One incorrect doctrine has led to another and here we are.

Protestants do not give to Mary enough honor, respect and love.
She is, after all, the mother of our Lord.

If I have to choose between the two, I like the Catholic Mary more because
I think they more properly represent how she was seen in the early church.

I think Protestants (of which I'm one) should stop belittling her and making her a pawn
for debate -

 

[Mungo]

The scriptures are focused on Christ and the gospel of Christ, but in my opinion there is scripture that leads to show Mary and Joseph as husband and wife shared a bed and did pop a few children out of there own after Christ was born, even it's not about there personal life.

There is no such scripture.

Someone reported in scripture that Joseph apparently did not know his own wife until her child was born. So they are obviously saying once Christ was born he knew his wife.

It's not obvious at all.
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age?

Here are some more

but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come. (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO

Supposing I said:
He ran until he reached the large oak tree in the middle of the park.
Does that mean he stopped running when he got to the oak tree?
It could continue: He ran round the oak tree and ran back to me.
He didn’t stop running. The until point was significant, not because he stopped running but because it was when he started running back to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no such scripture.

It's not obvious at all.
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age?

Here are some more

but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come. (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO

Supposing I said:
He ran until he reached the large oak tree in the middle of the park.
Does that mean he stopped running when he got to the oak tree?
It could continue: He ran round the oak tree and ran back to me.
He didn’t stop running. The until point was significant, not because he stopped running but because it was when he started running back to me.

This is how the CC explains the word UNTILL or TILL in Matthew.
However, they are a bit prejudiced !
I must confirm that we just cannot know for sure.
Comment?

 

[Corn Pop]

Some people will do anything to make sure the scriptures fit what they want the scriptures to say because they are so close minded and so indoctrinated they wont allow the Spirit to speak. The gospel and the scriptures are just what they want it to say and believe.

 

[Mungo]

Some people will do anything to make sure the scriptures fit what they want the scriptures to say because they are so close minded and so indoctrinated they wont allow the Spirit to speak. The gospel and the scriptures are just what they want it to say and believe.

Talking to yourself ?

 

[Corn Pop]

What was the point in Joseph and Mary getting married.

 

[Mungo]

What was the point in Joseph and Mary getting married.

An unmarried woman getting pregnant would be a scandal at least and she could possibly be stoned to death.
Also she would need someone to support her in bringing up the child.

 

[JLB]

Could you read the following and tell me what you think?
It's a Catholic source but sounds reasonable.
It states that James and Joseph (2 brothers mentioned in Matthew) had a different mother named Mary.

Did Jesus Have Brothers? A Fresh Look at the Evidence

Who are the so-called brothers of Jesus that you find mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark? Did Mary really have other children, or are the Gospel writers telling us something different? Watch this video by Dr. Brant Pitre and gain a deeper understanding about the "brothers of Jesus."

catholicproductions.com

Carpenter’s son refers to Joseph, Mary’s husband.

Carpenter’s son tells us that Mary refers to Jesus’s mother.


Not some “other” Mary.


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56






JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm more interested in whether or not Jesus had real brothers than the perpetual virginity of Mary.
I mean, how could we know for certain?

Read and simply believe what the scriptures so plainly teach us.


Carpenter’s son refers to Joseph, Mary’s husband.

Carpenter’s son tells us that Mary refers to Jesus’s mother.


Not some “other” Mary.


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56



again



Who does mother refer to in the context of this passage?

It refers to Mary His mother.


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56


Good sound exegesis requires we remain with the contextual flow of mother, meaning natural birth mother of Jesus, Mary into the rest of verse where we see brothers and sisters.

We can only conclude if mother refers to natural birth mother which is Mary, that brothers and sisters refer to Mary’s natural offspring.

To lift the foundational meaning out of it’s context and try to twist the natural meaning of brothers and sisters to mean distant relatives is a gross distortion of the plain and clear meaning of the context and text.


Then when we add the following verse, it strengthens the position.


Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her tillshe had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Matthew 1:24-25





JLB

 

[Mungo]

Read and simply believe what the scriptures so plainly teach us.


Carpenter’s son refers to Joseph, Mary’s husband.

Carpenter’s son tells us that Mary refers to Jesus’s mother.


Not some “other” Mary.


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56



again



Who does mother refer to in the context of this passage?

It refers to Mary His mother.


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56


Good sound exegesis requires we remain with the contextual flow of mother, meaning natural birth mother of Jesus, Mary into the rest of verse where we see brothers and sisters.

There is no reason to assume that.

We can only conclude if mother refers to natural birth mother which is Mary, that brothers and sisters refer to Mary’s natural offspring.

There is no reason to assume that given the wide possibilities in the culture. You would wish it to be so but your wishes are not reality.

To lift the foundational meaning out of it’s context and try to twist the natural meaning of brothers and sisters to mean distant relatives is a gross distortion of the plain and clear meaning of the context and text.

No it isn't
Even in today's culture there is a range of possibilities.
That there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” (& sisters) to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

There is some positive indication in scripture that at least some of these brothers were not Mary's children.

Mark says that at the foot of the cross was “Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses (Joseph), and Salome” This was obviously not Mary the mother of Jesus, so there is another Mary with sons called James and Joseph.

Matthew similarly says of the women at the foot of the cross “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph” (Mt 26:56)

Luke says that at the tomb were “Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James” (Lk 24:10)

So there was another Mary whose children were named James, Joses (Joseph) and Salome.
Therefore it is likely that the James, Joseph and Salome described as brothers/sister of Jesus were the sons/daughter of a different Mary.
John writes “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.” (Jn 19:25). Now this could mean that Jesus’ mother’s sister was there (whatever is meant by “sister”) and Mary the wife of Clopas or they were the same person, but either way there were at least three Mary’s at the cross – Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary of Magdalene. Now Mary the mother of James and Joseph could have been a fourth or she could have been Mary wife of Clopas. Either way Mary the mother of Jesus was not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned as Jesus’ brothers. And since they were listed first, neither was Simon and Judas, since if the were they would hardly have been listed after non-brothers.

Then when we add the following verse, it strengthens the position.


Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her tillshe had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS. Matthew 1:24-25





JLB

The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.


Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.


Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?


“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?


Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age?

Here are some more

"but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial" (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

"For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

"Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching."(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

"We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now;" (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

"except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come." (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

"To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations."(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

"keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO

 

[JLB]

There is no reason to assume that.

We have no need to assume anything, we only need to read what is written.

Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56


The carpenter's son refers to Jesus. His mother refes to Mary.

Therefore His brothers and His sisters refer contextually to Mary and Joseph.



JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no reason to assume that.



There is no reason to assume that given the wide possibilities in the culture. You would wish it to be so but your wishes are not reality.


No it isn't
Even in today's culture there is a range of possibilities.
That there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” (& sisters) to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

There is some positive indication in scripture that at least some of these brothers were not Mary's children.

Mark says that at the foot of the cross was “Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses (Joseph), and Salome” This was obviously not Mary the mother of Jesus, so there is another Mary with sons called James and Joseph.

Matthew similarly says of the women at the foot of the cross “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph” (Mt 26:56)

Luke says that at the tomb were “Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James” (Lk 24:10)

So there was another Mary whose children were named James, Joses (Joseph) and Salome.
Therefore it is likely that the James, Joseph and Salome described as brothers/sister of Jesus were the sons/daughter of a different Mary.
John writes “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.” (Jn 19:25). Now this could mean that Jesus’ mother’s sister was there (whatever is meant by “sister”) and Mary the wife of Clopas or they were the same person, but either way there were at least three Mary’s at the cross – Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary of Magdalene. Now Mary the mother of James and Joseph could have been a fourth or she could have been Mary wife of Clopas. Either way Mary the mother of Jesus was not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned as Jesus’ brothers. And since they were listed first, neither was Simon and Judas, since if the were they would hardly have been listed after non-brothers.




The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.


Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.


Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death?


“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84?


Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age?

Here are some more

"but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial" (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

"For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

"Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching."(1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

"We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now;" (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

"except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come." (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

"To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations."(Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

"keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO

Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56

There is the capenter's son.

There is the carpenter.

There is His mother.

There is His brothers.

There is His sisters.


Why would anyone with a pure motive for the truth, try to twist the plain contextual structure of this verse to mean, His sisters and His brothers are not the natural offspring of the capenter Joseph and Mary, the only ones mentioned in the verse as being the parents of His brothers and sisters.



JLB