Understanding Mary- Immaculate Conception

[Mungo]

1. In Lk 1:28 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. Even that is a simplification. The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of grace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century).

2. Much is sometimes made of Mary’s statement in Lk 1:47 “my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour”. Yes Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of original sin. We believe we inherit the effects of original sin from our parents so without Jesus’ saving grace she would have been affected by it. Moreover if she had not been preserved from the effects of original sine then Jesus would have needed a saviour to preserve him.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

3. Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed” Her seed is Jesus and the “her” is Mary. God promises enmity between Mary and Satan. Now enmity is being an enemy. When we sin we are not being an enemy of Satan but doing his will rather than God’s So here in the garden God is promising a woman who will totally oppose Satan – who will not sin.

4. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was considered so holy that it was made of the finest materials and plated with gold. Yet God sheinkah glory only rested on the Ark. With Mary God became incarnate in her womb.

It is fitting that she should be conceived immaculate as a worthy vessel for God.

5. Mary is the new Eve. Like bookends in time Jesus and Mary recapitulate Adam and Eve.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1Tim 2:13-14).

Just as Adam and Eve were created immaculate so it is fitting that the new Adam (Jesus) and the new Eve (Mary) should be immaculate.

6. Scripture says: “holiness befits thy house, O Lord” (Ps 93:5). Mary was Jesus’ “house” for 9 months so if holiness befits God’s house would not Mary be holy also? Just like the Ark and the Tabernacle she was set apart and consecrated to the Lord., the holy dwelling of God.

To demonstrate the perennial belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, here are some quotes from the early Church fathers from the first five centuries of the Catholic Church:

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) .

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388) .

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415) .

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446) .

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446) .

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449) .

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521) .

 

[God Is My Judge]

1. In Lk 1:28 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. Even that is a simplification. The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of grace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century).

2. Much is sometimes made of Mary’s statement in Lk 1:47 “my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour”. Yes Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of original sin. We believe we inherit the effects of original sin from our parents so without Jesus’ saving grace she would have been affected by it. Moreover if she had not been preserved from the effects of original sine then Jesus would have needed a saviour to preserve him.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

3. Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed” Her seed is Jesus and the “her” is Mary. God promises enmity between Mary and Satan. Now enmity is being an enemy. When we sin we are not being an enemy of Satan but doing his will rather than God’s So here in the garden God is promising a woman who will totally oppose Satan – who will not sin.

4. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was considered so holy that it was made of the finest materials and plated with gold. Yet God sheinkah glory only rested on the Ark. With Mary God became incarnate in her womb.

It is fitting that she should be conceived immaculate as a worthy vessel for God.

5. Mary is the new Eve. Like bookends in time Jesus and Mary recapitulate Adam and Eve.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1Tim 2:13-14).

Just as Adam and Eve were created immaculate so it is fitting that the new Adam (Jesus) and the new Eve (Mary) should be immaculate.

6. Scripture says: “holiness befits thy house, O Lord” (Ps 93:5). Mary was Jesus’ “house” for 9 months so if holiness befits God’s house would not Mary be holy also? Just like the Ark and the Tabernacle she was set apart and consecrated to the Lord., the holy dwelling of God.

To demonstrate the perennial belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, here are some quotes from the early Church fathers from the first five centuries of the Catholic Church:

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) .

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388) .

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415) .

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446) .

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446) .

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449) .

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521) .

Ok. So, when are you saying this happened? I believe she is the Immaculate Conception but when did it actually happen? The Catholic belief is it was at her conception in her mother's womb. You give a lot of men's praises and opinions, but you don't post the actual definition called a Dogma as taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[Mungo]

Ok. So, when are you saying this happened? I believe she is the Immaculate Conception but when did it actually happen? The Catholic belief is it was at her conception in her mother's womb. You give a lot of men's praises and opinions, but you don't post the actual definition called a Dogma as taught by the Catholic Church.

The definition is:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Ineffabilis Deus​

 

[God Is My Judge]

The definition is:
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Ineffabilis Deus​

She had her sin removed when the enmity Genesis 3:15 - the Power of the Most High overshadowed her. As with the Ark and tents in the OT , dew was left upon her. She was baptized by the Power of the Most High in preparation for the Holy Spirit Conception of Christ.

Immaculate Conception and Incarnation are one in time in space not at two separate times. She had HER Immaculately Conception by way of the Imperishable Seed- The word of God.

From the moment of her yes, she abides and can no longer practice sin, for she is a new creation. A Conception means the beginning, in her was the beginning of Christianity.

So, technically and actually she is the Immaculate Conception 1. Because she is the first to be born of the imperishable seed for us by Christ who is God her Savior 2. The Church's Immaculate Conception -because all who are to be saved are numbered in Christ. Therefore, She is who conceived and birthed all -a nation in one day . " Under the Apple tree ( covenant of Israel) your mother travailed, it was there she gave birth to you" Song of Songs. For a nation is a kingdom. She being full of grace- God , means from her cup to all.

The convergence of the New Covenant- The Sun and the Old Covenant- The Moon, which she stood upon at the Annunciation, came together in her. This happened at her yes . She is first of the Jews to have this happen -FIRST. Not even Elizabeth was first to be born of the imperishable seed nor John the Baptist. It wasn't until Elizabeth's 6 month of pregnancy that she and John would recieve the Holy Spirit and that was at Mary's arrival as Ark of the New Covenant . The New Covenant sheds light on the Old Covenant prophecies and teachings the moon cannot be understood without that light of the sun . So, she was exalted by God from upon the moon - OC when clothed in the Sun ( Overshadowed) by the Most High to recieve God the Son- Sun (New Covenant) in her womb. She is blessed for hearing the Word of God and obeying.
No people, no nation or Church of God can be without this First seed- Conception in Christ. Period!

 

[Mungo]

She had her sin removed when the enmity Genesis 3:15 - the Power of the Most High overshadowed her. As with the Ark and tents in the OT , dew was left upon her. She was baptized by the Power of the Most High in preparation for the Holy Spirit Conception of Christ.

Immaculate Conception and Incarnation are one in time in space not at two separate times. She had HER Immaculately Conception by way of the Imperishable Seed- The word of God.

From the moment of her yes, she abides and can no longer practice sin, for she is a new creation. A Conception means the beginning, in her was the beginning of Christianity.

So, technically and actually she is the Immaculate Conception 1. Because she is the first to be born of the imperishable seed for us by Christ who is God her Savior 2. The Church's Immaculate Conception -because all who are to be saved are numbered in Christ. Therefore, She is who conceived and birthed all -a nation in one day . " Under the Apple tree ( covenant of Israel) your mother travailed, it was there she gave birth to you" Song of Songs. For a nation is a kingdom. She being full of grace- God , means from her cup to all.

The convergence of the New Covenant- The Sun and the Old Covenant- The Moon, which she stood upon at the Annunciation, came together in her. This happened at her yes . She is first of the Jews to have this happen -FIRST. Not even Elizabeth was first to be born of the imperishable seed nor John the Baptist. It wasn't until Elizabeth's 6 month of pregnancy that she and John would recieve the Holy Spirit and that was at Mary's arrival as Ark of the New Covenant . The New Covenant sheds light on the Old Covenant prophecies and teachings the moon cannot be understood without that light of the sun . So, she was exalted by God from upon the moon - OC when clothed in the Sun ( Overshadowed) by the Most High to recieve God the Son- Sun (New Covenant) in her womb. She is blessed for hearing the Word of God and obeying.
No people, no nation or Church of God can be without this First seed- Conception in Christ. Period!

I'll go with the Church's definition. It's more understandable.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I'll go with the Church's definition. It's more understandable.

No, pretty clear what I shared.

• 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
  
• Romans 8:7
  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
  
• Philippians 4:8
  Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
  
• 1 John 4:1
  Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

[God Is My Judge]

I'll go with the Church's definition. It's more understandable.

She had her sin removed when the enmity Genesis 3:15 - the Power of the Most High overshadowed her. As with the Ark and tents in the OT , dew was left upon her. She was baptized by the Power of the Most High in preparation for the Holy Spirit Conception of Christ.

Immaculate Conception and Incarnation are one in time in space not at two separate times. She had HER Immaculately Conception by way of the Imperishable Seed- The word of God.

From the moment of her yes, she abides and can no longer practice sin, for she is a new creation. A Conception means the beginning, in her was the beginning of Christianity.

So, technically and actually she is the Immaculate Conception 1. Because she is the first to be born of the imperishable seed for us by Christ who is God her Savior 2. The Church's Immaculate Conception -because all who are to be saved are numbered in Christ. Therefore, She is who conceived and birthed all -a nation in one day . " Under the Apple tree ( covenant of Israel) your mother travailed, it was there she gave birth to you" Song of Songs. For a nation is a kingdom. She being full of grace- God , means from her cup to all.

The convergence of the New Covenant- The Sun and the Old Covenant- The Moon, which she stood upon at the Annunciation, came together in her. This happened at her yes . She is first of the Jews to have this happen -FIRST. Not even Elizabeth was first to be born of the imperishable seed nor John the Baptist. It wasn't until Elizabeth's 6 month of pregnancy that she and John would receive the Holy Spirit and that was at Mary's arrival as Ark of the New Covenant . The New Covenant sheds light on the Old Covenant prophecies and teachings the moon cannot be understood without that light of the sun . So, she was exalted by God from upon the moon - OC when clothed in the Sun ( Overshadowed) by the Most High to receive God the Son- Sun (New Covenant) in her womb. She is blessed for hearing the Word of God and obeying.
No people, no nation or Church of God can be without this First seed- Conception in Christ. Period!

Obviously a typo in the emboldened "She had HER Immaculately Conception"
Immaculate Conception was obviously what I meant, doing this off the fly. My fingers can't always keep up with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mungo]

No, pretty clear what I shared.

• 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
• Romans 8:7
  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
• Philippians 4:8
  Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
• 1 John 4:1
  Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Do you ever apply those things to yourself - or are you infallible?

 

[God Is My Judge]

Do you ever apply those things to yourself - or are you infallible?

Always, the more humble you get the more God is going to bless you. I hear the Word of God and obey, like my mommy.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Do you ever apply those things to yourself - or are you infallible?

Page 1.
Song of Solomon 4:2
Solomon Admires His Bride
1How beautiful you are, my darling—how very beautiful! Your eyes are like doves behind your veil. Your hair is like a flock of goats streaming down Mount Gilead. 2Your teeth are like a flock of newly shorn sheep coming up from the washing; each has its twin, and not one of them is lost. 3Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon, and your mouth is lovely. Your brow behind your veil is like a slice of pomegranate.…

Rev.14 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

women in this verse : These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins.

It is not literally women but concerns Denominations- (Queens and Concubines, those with Rites and those without)- understanding the Queens and Concubines of the Song of Songs helps. There is a group of people who have not been defiled with their false doctrines, means- have not been indoctrinated. There is a certain group who is GIVEN a new song, hence, why they understand the Song of Songs that their song is linked to. It is to be understood now in this end of the age. They are virgins: 2 Corinthians 11:2 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

This has to do with being born again- made a new creation and abiding. They have fidelity to Christ alone not to any man, no matter that man's position. If you contradict the Word of God left us in writing, with some so-called revelation then you are shown to be a liar. For a house divided cannot stand. God is not the author of confusion. The written word left to us and personal revelation from GOD will never contradict.
Song of Songs 8:
Longing for Her Beloved
5Who is this coming up from the wilderness, leaning on her beloved? I roused you under the apple tree; ( The covenant made with the House of David- Israel) there your mother conceived you; there she travailed and brought you forth. ( Mary brought me forth). She says," Do whatever He tells you". Hence, I and others like me, follow the Lamb wherever He goes. We are coming up out of the wilderness of Denominations. It can be an inhospitable place as you know. People are more mean there than most places. Always fighting for power and position -as better than another. they even kill, slander, and persecute all true believers. The Elect OUT of Gentile nations are called the Beloved in the Song of Songs as is Christ. We are each other's Beloved.

Romans 9:
The Calling of the Gentiles
…25As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.…
Proof of it is of the Gentil nations who are called this is in Revelation too.
Revelation 14:
6Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.

This indicates just what it says. Rev.7 solely deals with the 12 Tribes of Israel. But other nations have tribes- like aboriginals ( native Americans, Africans etc.... it is speaking about those tribes in Rev.14)other tongues and people.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Page 2.
Rev.7
The Sealed of Israel
7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

They will be sealed when they accept Mary as their mother. As it stands, they do not have God's seal upon their heads as those out of Gentile nations do because most Jews who claim to be followers of Christ, have been brought in through Concubine denominations who have no Rites which honor Mary. Very few Jews have come back into their original tree through Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Once they receive the last Rite established by Christ at the cross-
John 19:
26When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.” 27Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” So from that hour, this disciple took her into his home.…

This was the last Rite and seal over the heart of the Church and its arm must carry her in doctrines. As it is they are dismissive and even spurn her.
Song of Songs 8:
I roused you under the apple tree; there your mother ( Mary) conceived you; there she (Mary) travailed and brought you forth. ( YOUR MOTHER SAYS)- 6Set me as a seal over your heart, as a seal upon your arm. For love is as strong as death, its jealousy as unrelenting as Sheol. Its sparks are fiery flames, the fiercest blaze of all. 7Mighty waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot sweep it away. If a man were to give all the wealth of his house for love, his offer would be utterly scorned.…

Those who are devoted to Mary are utterly scorned by Protestants and Jews- Messianic and even Christ rejecting Jews, who with their Talmud call Mary a whore and her son a sorcerer. And rejected by Catholics and Orthodox who are defiled-indoctrinated by false doctrine from their denominations.
Once the 144,000 Jews take her into their home-heart and upon their arm-to be beside them in their doctrines, SEALED! Then begins the cosmic judgements from heaven.

 

[God Is My Judge]

If you know all I say is true, carry it with you and you will be blessed and delivered from what is and what is coming. Amen!

 

[Mungo]

If you know all I say is true, carry it with you and you will be blessed and delivered from what is and what is coming. Amen!

Bye again!

 

[journeyman]

1. In Lk 1:28 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. Even that is a simplification. The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of grace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century).

2. Much is sometimes made of Mary’s statement in Lk 1:47 “my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour”. Yes Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of original sin. We believe we inherit the effects of original sin from our parents so without Jesus’ saving grace she would have been affected by it. Moreover if she had not been preserved from the effects of original sine then Jesus would have needed a saviour to preserve him.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

3. Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed” Her seed is Jesus and the “her” is Mary. God promises enmity between Mary and Satan. Now enmity is being an enemy. When we sin we are not being an enemy of Satan but doing his will rather than God’s So here in the garden God is promising a woman who will totally oppose Satan – who will not sin.

4. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was considered so holy that it was made of the finest materials and plated with gold. Yet God sheinkah glory only rested on the Ark. With Mary God became incarnate in her womb.

It is fitting that she should be conceived immaculate as a worthy vessel for God.

5. Mary is the new Eve. Like bookends in time Jesus and Mary recapitulate Adam and Eve.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1Tim 2:13-14).

Just as Adam and Eve were created immaculate so it is fitting that the new Adam (Jesus) and the new Eve (Mary) should be immaculate.

6. Scripture says: “holiness befits thy house, O Lord” (Ps 93:5). Mary was Jesus’ “house” for 9 months so if holiness befits God’s house would not Mary be holy also? Just like the Ark and the Tabernacle she was set apart and consecrated to the Lord., the holy dwelling of God.

To demonstrate the perennial belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, here are some quotes from the early Church fathers from the first five centuries of the Catholic Church:

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) .

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388) .

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415) .

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446) .

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446) .

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449) .

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521) .

Hey Mungo.
I have to disagree with your belief in the sinlessness of Mary, because I don't believe "people are born sinners" and that sin is passed from one person to another. I believe we pass the knowledge of.sin to our children, but I don't believe sinless children who die need to go to limbo or purgatory.
As I understand scripture, to be full of grace is to be filled with the love and kindness of God, which all persevering believers grow into. From what little scripture says about her, Mary strikes me as a girl who exemplified the fruits of the Spirit, but not sinless because the Bible tells us,

there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecc.7:20

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

 

[Mungo]

Hey Mungo.
I have to disagree with your belief in the sinlessness of Mary, because I don't believe "people are born sinners" and that sin is passed from one person to another. I believe we pass the knowledge of.sin to our children, but I don't believe sinless children who die need to go to limbo or purgatory.
As I understand scripture, to be full of grace is to be filled with the love and kindness of God, which all persevering believers grow into. From what little scripture says about her, Mary strikes me as a girl who exemplified the fruits of the Spirit, but not sinless because the Bible tells us,

We believe that from conception we are affected by the sin of Adam (the original sin) not that babies actually sin.
Mary was preserved from that by the graciousness of God and the merits of Jesus sacrifice.

there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecc.7:20

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2

There are 3 answers to that:

1, At that time there was no man that was sinless

2. Do you apply those to Jesus? Was he not sinless?

3. That refers to men. Mary was a woman.

 

[journeyman]

We believe that from conception we are affected by the sin of Adam (the original sin) not that babies actually sin.
Mary was preserved from that by the graciousness of God and the merits of Jesus sacrifice.

Jesus' sacrifice is the graciousness of God. I hope you consider the gravity of that statement, because it's also the condemnation of all who refuse to repent of their sins. I hope when you see the cross, you see the injustice done to the One who loves us most.
Please read Pro.6:16-19. Those 7 sins were committed against Christ. I've shared this with Calvanists who have never commented on it, but want you to see that all of those sins were committed against the Lamb of God, because the lamb sacrifice was for repentance of wrongdoing done to Him.

There are 3 answers to that:

1, At that time there was no man that was sinless

Except for Jesus, that has never changed.

2. Do you apply those to Jesus? Was he not sinless?

No, I don't apply it to our Father entering judgement with his Son, because the point is, "no man living will be justified" and Jesus was justified.
Our Lord didn't need to be forgiven, but he conducted himself (without sin) likeany other man as an example to all men.
I believe Jehovahs witnesses also formed heresy, comparing what the Bible says about Jesus and us in relation to our Father. For instance, "I and my Father are one." They believe Jesus is a created spirit being because we can become one with the Father too.

3. That refers to men. Mary was a woman.

I would say Marys' parents taught he well.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus' sacrifice is the graciousness of God. I hope you consider the gravity of that statement, because it's also the condemnation of all who refuse to repent of their sins. I hope when you see the cross, you see the injustice done to the One who loves us most.

I didn't mean my words to be read that Jesus' sacrifice is the graciousness of God

I meant Mary was preserved from the effects of Adam's sin:
1. by the graciousness of God
and
2. by the merits of Jesus' sacrifice

Please read Pro.6:16-19. Those 7 sins were committed against Christ. I've shared this with Calvanists who have never commented on it, but want you to see that all of those sins were committed against the Lamb of God, because the lamb sacrifice was for repentance of wrongdoing done to Him.

Except for Jesus, that has never changed.

No, I don't apply it to our Father entering judgement with his Son, because the point is, "no man living will be justified" and Jesus was justified.
Our Lord didn't need to be forgiven, but he conducted himself (without sin) likeany other man as an example to all men.
I believe Jehovahs witnesses also formed heresy, comparing what the Bible says about Jesus and us in relation to our Father. For instance, "I and my Father are one." They believe Jesus is a created spirit being because we can become one with the Father too.

If you apply it to all men, and Jesus was fully (100%) man, then you must apply it to Jesus, unless you accept there may be an exception; that all does not necessarily mean all without any exception.
If there is one exception then there can be another.

 

[Iconoclast]

1. In Lk 1:28 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. Even that is a simplification. The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of grace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century).

2. Much is sometimes made of Mary’s statement in Lk 1:47 “my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour”. Yes Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of original sin. We believe we inherit the effects of original sin from our parents so without Jesus’ saving grace she would have been affected by it. Moreover if she had not been preserved from the effects of original sine then Jesus would have needed a saviour to preserve him.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

3. Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed” Her seed is Jesus and the “her” is Mary. God promises enmity between Mary and Satan. Now enmity is being an enemy. When we sin we are not being an enemy of Satan but doing his will rather than God’s So here in the garden God is promising a woman who will totally oppose Satan – who will not sin.

4. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was considered so holy that it was made of the finest materials and plated with gold. Yet God sheinkah glory only rested on the Ark. With Mary God became incarnate in her womb.

It is fitting that she should be conceived immaculate as a worthy vessel for God.

5. Mary is the new Eve. Like bookends in time Jesus and Mary recapitulate Adam and Eve.
“For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1Tim 2:13-14).

Just as Adam and Eve were created immaculate so it is fitting that the new Adam (Jesus) and the new Eve (Mary) should be immaculate.

6. Scripture says: “holiness befits thy house, O Lord” (Ps 93:5). Mary was Jesus’ “house” for 9 months so if holiness befits God’s house would not Mary be holy also? Just like the Ark and the Tabernacle she was set apart and consecrated to the Lord., the holy dwelling of God.

To demonstrate the perennial belief in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, here are some quotes from the early Church fathers from the first five centuries of the Catholic Church:

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) .

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388) .

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415) .

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446) .

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446) .

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449) .

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521) .

This is sad idolatry with no basis in scripture.Mary does not equal the mercy seat. It is not a remake of Adam and Eve, no scripture hints at any such thing. RC storytime tries to invent this like everything else it teaches

 

[Mungo]

This is sad idolatry with no basis in scripture.Mary does not equal the mercy seat. It is not a remake of Adam and Eve, no scripture hints at any such thing. RC storytime tries to invent this like everything else it teaches

So, 6 scripture based arguments and you cannot refute any of them.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, 6 scripture based arguments and you cannot refute any of them.

Highly favored does not mean sinless, mary is not the new eve, that is a perversion of the text...becuase you tell stories and put a verse next to it, does not make it a scripturally based argument, it lust makes it nonscriptural speculation.Roman teaching if full of that.You offer nothing to refute.