Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Perhaps Jacob Arminius and John Calvin are wrong

[electedbyhim]

Calvinists believe in total depravity, and claim free will is too diminished to choose to live with God.

I find that absurd. Everywhere God commands we use our free will to choose life. He wouldn't do that if Calvinists were right.

When I think of free will, I think of being able to choose God for salvation.

It is not Biblical.

That is mans pride saying he can choose to be saved. The Bible does not teach this.

But that is a whole different subject.

Your o.p. was about election.

Iconoclast is spot on what the Scriptures teach. Why is it so hard to just accept the Lord is sovereign and does not think or do things as fallible humans?

 

[Alfred Persson]

When I think of free will, I think of being able to choose God for salvation.

It is not Biblical.

That is mans pride saying he can choose to be saved. The Bible does not teach this.

But that is a whole different subject.

Your o.p. was about election.

Iconoclast is spot on what the Scriptures teach. Why is it so hard to just accept the Lord is sovereign and does not think or do things as fallible humans?

That we can choose good and reject evil, is implicit in God's command to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. The premise is implied again in Genesis 4:7:

"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen. 4:7 NKJ)

Christ our LORD teaches the premise here, people choose to close their eyes lest they see:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

John 3:16 is a fraud if free will to believe is not available to everyone in the world---whoever believes:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 NKJ)

In Greek, "world" is KOSMOS. Everyone in the entire KOSMOS has Christ available to them. The opportunity is unlimited by time or space, its universally available.

To say its universally available does not mean everyone will be saved. Those who choose to remain in a burning house after they are warned to flee, will be consumed by fire.

 

[electedbyhim]

That we can choose good and reject evil, is implicit in God's command to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. The premise is implied again in Genesis 4:7:

"If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen. 4:7 NKJ)

Christ our LORD teaches the premise here, people choose to close their eyes lest they see:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

John 3:16 is a fraud if free will to believe is not true of to everyone in the world:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 NKJ)

In Greek, "world" is KOSMOS. Everyone in the entire KOSMOS has Christ available to them. The opportunity is unlimited by time or space, its universally available.

To say its universally available does not mean everyone will be saved. Those who choose to remain in a burning house after they are warned to flee, will be consumed by fire.

That we can choose good and reject evil, is implicit in God's command to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree. The premise is implied again in Genesis 4:7:

What did they choose?

 

[Alfred Persson]

What did they choose?

Adam chose to sin, following Eve. Cain chose to sin, killing Abel. Many closed their eyes to the glory of Christ, and so His stripes will not heal them. The World isn't done choosing yet. We will get the final numbers soon.

 

[electedbyhim]

Adam chose to sin, following Eve. Cain chose to sin, killing Abel. Many closed their eyes to the glory of Christ, and so His stripes will not heal them. The World isn't done choosing yet. We will get the final numbers soon.

Again, Scripture does not teach what you believe.

Your going off topic.

Iconoclast has shown you Scriptural proof of Unconditional Election.

Believe as you will.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why is it so hard to just accept the Lord is sovereign and does not think or do things as fallible humans?

God is hated without cause, people respond to false doctrine about God with hate.

The most effective "haters" were inspired by unscriptural doctrines about hell and reprobation, to fight God to the death.

Darwin wrote in autobiography: "I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine" (quoted by Heiligman, p. 231).

Had he knew what scripture actually taught, perhaps Evolutionary Theory wouldn't exist today.

Will there be a second chance for salvation after death? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Google "Will there be a second chance for salvation after death?" and dozens of respected sites will appear emphatically proclaiming "No". What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

Again, Scripture does not teach what you believe.

Your going off topic.

Iconoclast has shown you Scriptural proof of Unconditional Election.

Believe as you will.

Grace and peace to you.

Both of you evade my simple argument. Calvin was wrong, God did not foreknow sinners. He foreknew the version of us that wasn't born, that didn't do good or bad in this realm.

Correct that error and Calvinism vanishes, TULIP is revealed for the weed it is.

 

[electedbyhim]

God is hated without cause, people respond to false doctrine about God with hate.

The most effective "haters" were inspired by unscriptural doctrines about hell and reprobation, to fight God to the death.

Darwin wrote in autobiography: "I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine" (quoted by Heiligman, p. 231).

Had he knew what scripture actually taught, perhaps Evolutionary Theory wouldn't exist today.

Will there be a second chance for salvation after death? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Google "Will there be a second chance for salvation after death?" and dozens of respected sites will appear emphatically proclaiming "No". What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their...

endtimenews.net

God is hated without cause, people respond to false doctrine about God with hate.

The most effective "haters" were inspired by unscriptural doctrines about hell and reprobation, to fight God to the death.

I do not understand this.

Also, are you suggesting hell and people born into sin are not Biblical?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I do not understand this.

Also, are you suggesting hell and people born into sin are not Biblical?

I would love to impart understanding, but I'm not God. I explained my position well enough, rereading the material might lead to "understanding."

I suggest nothing unbiblical. I referred to Adam's sin and our fallen nature often enough, to prove I don't deny the doctrine.

Please don't go the usual route of ad hominem, and deflection.

Every Calvinist who wants to be intellectually challenged, should prove from the scriptures God's foreknowledge concerned what and who the fallen versions of us are in this fallen realm, and not the "unfallen version" that existed only in God's foreknowledge, before we were born, before any of us did good or bad.

 

[electedbyhim]

I would love to impart understanding, but I'm not God. I explained my position well enough, rereading the material might lead to "understanding."

I suggest nothing unbiblical. I referred to Adam's sin and our fallen nature often enough, to prove I don't deny the doctrine.

Please don't go the usual route of ad hominem, and deflection.

Every Calvinist who wants to be intellectually challenged, should prove from the scriptures God's foreknowledge concerned what and who the fallen versions of us are in this fallen realm, and not the "unfallen version" that existed only in God's foreknowledge, before we were born, before any of us did good or bad.

Iconoclast has defeated what you believe with scripture.

I am witness to this.

No hard feelings, you are free to "choose" what you want to believe.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Iconoclast has defeated what you believe with scripture.

I am witness to this.

No hard feelings, you are free to "choose" what you want to believe.

Grace and peace to you.

Nope, he did not.

But we are both iconoclasts. So that we share.

Its too bad the Orthodox forum never got off the ground floor. I have a lot of old posts from OrthodoxChristianity.net on this and John of Damascus.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I do not respond to fairytales. That is all you offer. You still ignore the truth that was presented. You are unable to understand it. Sorry for that. Get well soon.My posts stand as written.

Incorrect, Calvinist arguments crash and burn as you haven't proved God's foreknowledge concerned fallen humanity in Adam's sin.

If God foreknew people before they were born, before doing anything good or evil, a version of humanity that never came into existence, but exists only in the foreknowledge of God, then TULIP is a weed deserving to be plucked out of the ground.

Total depravity, reprobation and a host of other Calvinist distinctives, crash and burn if God didn't foreknow fallen humanity, but a version of humanity that is UNFALLEN. Peter listed some of their names:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

Their "unfallen version" is destined to be restored in Christ, whenever a person is "born again", passes over from death into life beginning the process of restoration (Acts 3:18-21):

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Once it is admitted God foreknew those who are His children, those who responded to God's love with love, not for what they could get from Him, but because He is impeccably good Holy Righteous Light, then one understands why God ordained all things will work for their good:

God predestines them to be conformed to the image of His Son (so He can dwell in them) and be justified and glorified unto salvation in Christ Jesus our LORD:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ

Its implies God created, knowing He would suffer long with vessels of wrath, so His beloved children come into existence:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,`You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." (Rom. 9:22-26 NKJ)

But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9 NKJ)

This glorious gospel was too bright for Calvin, he couldn't see it. Rather he looked for depravity, reprobation....all sorts of darkness, and claimed it scriptural. TULIP is a weed, it looks like wheat, but its fruit is horrible.

And it all sprang from a flawed presupposition, that infinite God focused on the fallen realm, rather than on restoring all things to His plan.
19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
20 "and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,
21 "whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:19-21 NKJ)

 

[electedbyhim]

Incorrect, Calvinist arguments crash and burn as you haven't proved God's foreknowledge concerned fallen humanity in Adam's sin.

If God foreknew people before they were born, before doing anything good or evil, a version of humanity that never came into existence, but exists only in the foreknowledge of God, then TULIP is a weed deserving to be plucked out of the ground.

Total depravity, reprobation and a host of other Calvinist distinctives, crash and burn if God didn't foreknow fallen humanity, but a version of humanity that is UNFALLEN. Peter listed some of their names:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:1-2 NKJ)

Their "unfallen version" becomes actual whenever a person is "born again", passes over from death into life:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Once it is admitted God foreknew those who are His children, those who responded to God's love with love, not for what they could get from Him, but because He is impeccably good Holy Righteous Light, then one understands why God ordained all things will work for their good:

God predestines them to be conformed to the image of His Son (so He can dwell in them) and be justified and glorified unto salvation in Christ Jesus our LORD:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ

Its implies God created, knowing He would suffer long with vessels of wrath, so His beloved children come into existence:

But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9 NKJ)

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,`You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." (Rom. 9:22-26 NKJ)

This glorious gospel was to bright for Calvin, he couldn't see it. Rather he looked for depravity, reprobation....all sorts of darkness, and claimed it scriptural. TULIP is a weed, it looks like wheat, but its fruit is horrible.

Iconoclast was banned on this thread.

He started a new thread if you want to participate.

https://christianforums.net/threads/biblical-foreknowledge.102616/

 

[Alfred Persson]

Iconoclast was banned on this thread.

He started a new thread if you want to participate.

https://christianforums.net/threads/biblical-foreknowledge.102616/

I will, thanks for letting me know.

 

[Anaphora]

Does the OT actually state that the angels are children of God??

Genesis 6:2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair:
Sons of God are Angel's.
HA ELOHIM in Hebrew means = God, creator.

Man and angels are created by God, in His image.

Yes, they're children of God.
Both good angels and the fallen angels.

Matthew chapter 22:29. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Genesis 6:2. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair:
Sons of God are Angel's.
HA ELOHIM in Hebrew means = God, creator.

Man and angels are created by God, in His image.

Yes, they're children of God.
Both good angels and the fallen angels.

Matthew chapter 22:29. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

Man is created in God's image and likeness, not angels. They are "sons of God" (Gen. 6:2), but only humans have the image and likeness of God.

Part of this image was our dominion over the earth, God put Adam and Eve over the earth like God is over all. The animals came to Adam to be named.

Because God gave man dominion over the earth, Satan and demons cannot do anything on the earth unless they do it through humans. Otherwise Satan wouldn't need an "Antichrist" seed, he would do it himself.

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." (Gen. 1:26-28 NKJ)

 

[Anaphora]

Too many unfamiliar concepts and words (Kadabal? The election?) for my simple brain to understand. Perhaps you can focus on one pertinent point relevant to the OP?

Hello friend. It's not difficult to understand.
2 Peter chapter 3:5 . For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water:
3:6. Where by the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
KATAKLUZO means = over flowed.
LANTHANO in Greek means = this is hid from.
EKPALAI in Greek means = of old.
KAT AB OL AY in Hebrew/Greek definition means = deposition, conception, Foundation.
Noun feminine.

Matthew 13:35. I will utter things which been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
The Kadabal happened in first earth age. Its world wide flood. It killed off the dinosaurs.
Why did the Kadabal happen???.

Answer: satan led a rebellion against God in first earth age. Satan wanted the Mercy seat, to be messiah.

God choose to destroy the first earth age, instead of destroying the one third who followed satan in first earth age.

The foundation of the world is when the Kadabal happened. Again. It was world wide flood.

Were in second earth age, the flesh age.

Jeremiah chapter 4:23. I beheld the earth, and , lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens , and they had no light.
TOHU in Hebrew means = void, without form.
Isaiah chapter 34:11. But the cormorant and the BITTERN shall possess it: the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it; and He shall stretch out it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
Confusion is of satan. The first earth age became void because of satan's rebellion.

The connection is foundation, void and Kadabal. This is the first earth age. God destroyed the first earth age. Now were in second earth age.

Satan started the whole mess in first earth age.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Anaphora]

Man is created in God's image and likeness, not angels. They are "sons of God" (Gen. 6:2), but only humans have the image and likeness of God.

Part of this image was our dominion over the earth, God put Adam and Eve over the earth like God is over all. The animals came to Adam to be named.

Because God gave man dominion over the earth, Satan and demons cannot do anything on the earth unless they do it through humans. Otherwise Satan wouldn't need an "Antichrist" seed, he would do it himself.

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." (Gen. 1:26-28 NKJ)

There the same. When our flesh body dies. We will recognize our loved ones who are in their angelic bodys.
Man is flesh.
Angels is spirit.
When we die. We are like angels in heaven. We look the same.

The apostles in gospel of John, asked Jesus, show us the Father. Jesus said, if you seen the son, you saw the Father.

Ezekiel chapter 44. We will recognize our families.
Take care.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hello friend. It's not difficult to understand.
2 Peter chapter 3:5 . For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water:
3:6. Where by the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
KATAKLUZO means = over flowed.
LANTHANO in Greek means = this is hid from.
EKPALAI in Greek means = of old.
KAT AB OL AY in Hebrew/Greek definition means = deposition, conception, Foundation.
Noun feminine.

Matthew 13:35. I will utter things which been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
The Kadabal happened in first earth age. Its world wide flood. It killed off the dinosaurs.
Why did the Kadabal happen???.

Answer: satan led a rebellion against God in first earth age. Satan wanted the Mercy seat, to be messiah.

God choose to destroy the first earth age, instead of destroying the one third who followed satan in first earth age.

The foundation of the world is when the Kadabal happened. Again. It was world wide flood.

Were in second earth age, the flesh age.

Jeremiah chapter 4:23. I beheld the earth, and , lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens , and they had no light.
TOHU in Hebrew means = void, without form.
Isaiah chapter 34:11. But the cormorant and the BITTERN shall possess it: the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it; and He shall stretch out it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
Confusion is of satan. The first earth age became void because of satan's rebellion.

The connection is foundation, void and Kadabal. This is the first earth age. God destroyed the first earth age. Now were in second earth age.

Satan started the whole mess in first earth age.

I hope this helps you.

Thanks for the explanation. It was entertaining, but I'll stick with facts I can see in scripture.

For example, it wasn't just a third of the earth that was in rebellion:

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. (Gen. 6:11-12 NKJ)

 

[Anaphora]

Thanks for the explanation. It was entertaining, but I'll stick with facts I can see in scripture.

For example, it wasn't just a third of the earth that was in rebellion:

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. (Gen. 6:11-12 NKJ)

Sir. Your confusing Noah's flood and the Kadabal.
If you wont take God's word seriously. I won't help you in the future. As servant of God, I don't need to be mocked.

I documented it and went through the Hebrew and Greek language.

I won't reply back
Peace.