Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[JLB]

We know God's message is eternal life and that life is in the Son.
Those that are born of God can not be deceived away or over powered away. Jesus protects them from the evil one.
I am free will but I can't see someone born of God committing eternal suicide by willfully throwing them self down. After all they loved Jesus and the evil one can't harm them.
So our answer to Jesus if He asked us if we wanted to leave Him would be in line with Peters. Where would we go for only in you is eternal life. And Jesus would reply have I not chosen you.
Born of the Spirit is not based on any human decision or any genealogy.

So if there is any line to be drawn its those that have the Spirit and those who don't have the Spirit. Since we preach to all different people it should be as the Apostles with all the warnings given NOT as OSAS.

Your opinion is noted.


Please address my post and the scripture I quoted.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If a brother in Christ hates his brother he no longer has eternal life remaining in him.


If you have a cup of water and you drink it all, so there is no more water remaining in the cup, does that mean the cup never had any water in it to begin with?

Of course not. By saying “remaining” the Holy Spirit is indicating the loss of what once was.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Again you keep implying “never had” to what clearly means
“no longer”.


Christians who “hate” (disobey God) no longer have eternal life remaining in them.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who are those people - those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth.
They did trample on the covenant Jesus introduced by His blood.

If your position is that those who continue to sin have known Jesus then I don't share it.

No, I didn't say that.
The saved people whom God knows in Hebrews 10, but who continue in sin, don't know him. That is perfectly consistent with 1 John 3:6.
Their falling away is evidence they do not know God intimately, not that God does not know them in salvation (the passage says God knows them in salvation).

You're not being careful to make the distinction between God knowing a person in salvation but them not knowing God.
I've made it perfectly clear this is a Biblical truth.
Not all saved people are mature and know and see God.
I showed you that the Bible makes this distinction in believers.
And it is these immature believers that are prone to falling away, just as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:13). And the Galatians exemplify (Galatians 4:9).

 

[Randy]

No, I didn't say that.
The saved people whom God knows in Hebrews 10, but who continue in sin, don't know him. That is perfectly consistent with 1 John 3:6.
Their falling away is evidence they do not know God intimately, not that God does not know them in salvation (the passage says God knows them in salvation).

You're not being careful to make the distinction between God knowing a person in salvation but them not knowing God.
I've made it perfectly clear this is a Biblical truth.
Not all saved people are mature and know and see God.
I showed you that the Bible makes this distinction in believers.
And it is these immature believers that are prone to falling away, just as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:13). And the Galatians exemplify (Galatians 4:9).

Saved people but don't know Him???
How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and NOT know Jesus lives?

When the scripture states never known Him it means they were never in Christ.

 

[Randy]

Your opinion is noted.


Please address my post and the scripture I quoted.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If a brother in Christ hates his brother he no longer has eternal life remaining in him.


If you have a cup of water and you drink it all, so there is no more water remaining in the cup, does that mean the cup never had any water in it to begin with?

Of course not. By saying “remaining” the Holy Spirit is indicating the loss of what once was.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Again you keep implying “never had” to what clearly means
“no longer”.


Christians who “hate” (disobey God) no longer have eternal life remaining in them.



JLB

Your opinion is also noted. I would state those that hate are not in Christ.
Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.

For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

I know a murderer doesn't have eternal life residing in them. They remain in death.

 

[Randy]

No, I didn't say that.
The saved people whom God knows in Hebrews 10, but who continue in sin, don't know him. That is perfectly consistent with 1 John 3:6.
Their falling away is evidence they do not know God intimately, not that God does not know them in salvation (the passage says God knows them in salvation).

You're not being careful to make the distinction between God knowing a person in salvation but them not knowing God.
I've made it perfectly clear this is a Biblical truth.
Not all saved people are mature and know and see God.
I showed you that the Bible makes this distinction in believers.
And it is these immature believers that are prone to falling away, just as Jesus explains in the Parable of the Sower (Luke 8:13). And the Galatians exemplify (Galatians 4:9).

It would have to be one who believes, (even for a little while), but does not have the Spirit.
Its not just what people state that shows them to be Jesus's disciples but those who do the will of the Father in heaven.
Those who continue to sin are in a state of disobedience.
Those who love Jesus and obey His commands receive the promised Holy Spirit. That is what Jesus stated. If you love me then you will obey me. Then He sends the Spirit.

 

[Randy]

There is a time of testing noted.
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, a whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Even the testing of ourselves.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Do you have this witness? Did you receive the Spirit when you believed?
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. WE KNOW HIM

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saved people but don't know Him???
How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and NOT know Jesus lives?

Because 'knowing' isn't about just knowing he exists.
Demons 'know' that Christ is alive and well.....better than you and I!
'Knowing' him means having intimate revelation of, and contact with, God.

There are saved people who don't have this intimate knowledge and contact with God.
We can tell who they are by the fact they aren't characterized by their love for God/man.
God knows them, but they do not 'know' him intimately (Galatians 4:9, Job 42:5).
They are immature.

Then there are saved people who DO have this intimate knowledge and contact with God.
We can tell who they are by the fact that they are characterized by their love for God/man expressed in their obedience to God's commands.
They are mature/maturing in Christ and are those in whom the word perseveres and who bring it to fruition.
They are soil #4 in the Parable of the Sower.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When the scripture states never known Him it means they were never in Christ.

Scripture shows us this can also refer to the saved believer who has yet to know Christ intimately.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Because 'knowing' isn't about just knowing he exists.
Demons 'know' that Christ is alive and well.....better than you and I!
'Knowing' him means having intimate revelation of, and contact with, God.

There are saved people who don't have this intimate knowledge and contact with God.
We can tell who they are by the fact they aren't characterized by their love for God/man.
God knows them, but they do not 'know' him intimately (Galatians 4:9, Job 42:5).
They are immature.

Then there are saved people who DO have this intimate knowledge and contact with God.
We can tell who they are by the fact that they are characterized by their love for God/man expressed in their obedience to God's commands.
They are mature/maturing in Christ and are those in whom the word perseveres and who bring it to fruition.
They are soil #4 in the Parable of the Sower.

Jethro, I agree that people who really know God and "Love" him do his will.

I don't want people to brush past the "know" Jesus part of scripture because this is the plan of salvation for humans.

Yes, demons know who Jesus is..........they know because they come from the spiritual world. But, we as humans living in the physical world.......don't understand Jesus really.

He is the Son of Man/Son of God. Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and drunkard a friend of tax collectors and "sinners"' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Matthew 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

The church world has been infiltrated by mushy nonsensical baloney that means nothing if you don't understand the true plan of redemption. God, revealing his Son and the Son of Man to humans. Believe it or Not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

we as humans living in the physical world.......don't understand Jesus really.

"16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer." - 2 Corinthians 5:16

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The church world has been infiltrated by mushy nonsensical baloney that means nothing...

You can thank the reformers for that.

 

[Randy]

Scripture shows us this can also refer to the saved believer who has yet to know Christ intimately.

That's not what I see. I don't share your view.

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

This is 100% true.
You have to depart from the Lord in unbelief to be a 'sinner' again.
Those who do that are immature Christians who have never 'seen' or 'known' God, yet were saved nonetheless. Like the Galatians:

"9But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?" - Galatians 4:9

God knows them, but they do not 'know' him. That's why they are able to fall away. They are 2nd type of soil believers (Luke 8:13). Believers who do 'know' him are 4th type of soil believers. They are the one's in whom the word perseveres and who do not fall away (Luke 8:15).

Start distinguishing between God knowing us, and us knowing God. The people in Matthew 7:23 are people who God never knew, not people who God knew but who did not know him.

 

[JLB]

I would state those that hate are not in Christ.

Yes. Exactly.

No longer in Christ.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

We have mentioned here two brothers in Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It would have to be one who believes, (even for a little while), but does not have the Spirit.

What is the condition for salvation?

If a person is not saved when they believe, then what more are you saying they need to do, in order to be saved?

Here’s what Jesus says is needed to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Now we see what Jesus says the condition for being saved is, what is the condition you are saying is required for salvation.


JLB

 

[Randy]

What is the condition for salvation?

If a person is not saved when they believe, then what more are you saying they need to do, in order to be saved?

Here’s what Jesus says is needed to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Now we see what Jesus says the condition for being saved is, what is the condition you are saying is required for salvation.


JLB

I think He stated those who don't put His words into practice build their house on sand. When the storms come that house falls with a great crash.

What I need to be saved is to believe in Him and do the will of the Father in Heaven.
Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and keep His commands.

Those that continue to sin remain in a state of disobedience. And such people were noted as rejecting the covenant that Jesus introduced by His blood that sanctified them. "Rejected" They clearly are still a slave to sin.

 

[Randy]

This is 100% true.
You have to depart from the Lord in unbelief to be a 'sinner' again.
Those who do that are immature Christians who have never 'seen' or 'known' God, yet were saved nonetheless. Like the Galatians:

"9But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?" - Galatians 4:9

God knows them, but they do not 'know' him. That's why they are able to fall away. They are 2nd type of soil believers (Luke 8:13). Believers who do 'know' him are 4th type of soil believers. They are the one's in whom the word perseveres and who do not fall away (Luke 8:15).

Start distinguishing between God knowing us, and us knowing God. The people in Matthew 7:23 are people who God never knew, not people who God knew but who did not know him.

Its all true they have neither seen Him or known Him.

 

[JLB]

I think He stated those who don't put His words into practice build their house on sand. When the storms come that house falls with a great crash.

What I need to be saved is to believe in Him and do the will of the Father in Heaven.
Those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and keep His commands.

Those that continue to sin remain in a state of disobedience. And such people were noted as rejecting the covenant that Jesus introduced by His blood that sanctified them. "Rejected" They clearly are still a slave to sin.

Could you state specifically what the requirement you believe is for salvation; ie regeneration, to become born again ?

• Note: I’m not asking what is required of born again Christians such as doing the will of the Father.

If a person is not saved when they believe, then what more are you saying they need to do, in order to be saved?

Here’s what Jesus says is needed to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Now we see what Jesus says the condition for being saved is, what is the condition you are saying is required for salvation.


Here is what I believe is required to be saved: Believe.


What do you believe is required to be saved?

1. Believe?
2. Believe and be baptized in water?
3. Believe and be baptized with the Holy Spirit?
4. Believe and do good works. (Please list how many)?
5. Believe and be baptized and do good works?
6. Other. Please explain.

JLB

 

[Randy]

This is a sign of true salvation and its not one continuing to sin but one believing in Jesus and pledging a good conscience towards God. A change of heart, a spirit of repentance. By mouth and deeds.

And Zaccheaus was a chief tax collector.

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

And Jesus must have seen Zacchaeus was sincere in his faith.

For Jesus stated.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

 

[Randy]

Could you state specifically what the requirement you believe is for salvation; ie regeneration, to become born again ?

• Note: I’m not asking what is required of born again Christians such as doing the will of the Father.

If a person is not saved when they believe, then what more are you saying they need to do, in order to be saved?

Here’s what Jesus says is needed to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Now we see what Jesus says the condition for being saved is, what is the condition you are saying is required for salvation.


JLB

In order to know Him and belong to Him. The test that states you are in the faith.
According to Jesus.
"“If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you."

Those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth don't love Him.

God can work with those who love Him. Those that don't love Him and care about His ways not so much.

This demonstrates to me a love and reverence for God and God can work with such a person.
When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus' knees and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!"

God knows those that "love" Him and I think those are the ones the Father "seeks" to worship Him in Spirit and truth. Those are the ones that listen to Him and learn from Him and go to Jesus for life.

So I think you need to love Jesus to be saved. The rest follows. I think those that don't love Jesus will remain in darkness. And the accountability follows for with light comes accountability.