Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[JLB]

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Please use scripture. Actual scripture with context.


Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 1 John 3:4-11

• Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

This scripture is not saying what you are implying.

• Here is what you are implying this scripture says —

Whoever does not practice righteousness “was never of God“...

• What this scripture is teaching us is —

Whoever does not practice righteousness is “no longer of God“...


This is where the OSAS doctrine is opposed to scripture.

This is where the OSAS doctrine must make the prodigal son as never being a son of the father: His lost sheep and never being one of His sheep.

I can prove this from other scriptures from John and Jesus.

Here is the most obvious one.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


This scripture encapsulates the entire New Testament thought on the subject we are discussing and completely and utterly destroys the OSAS narrative, when you actually read and understand what is so plainly written here.

The whole Bible is about loving God and loving His people.

Once a person makes the cognitive recognition that
disobedience = hate and obedience to God = loves, then everything in the New Testament is plain to understand.






JLB

 

[Randy]

Please use scripture. Actual scripture with context.



JLB

That is scripture from 1 John. It speaks to the subject matter in question.

But how about the head of the body of Christ. Jesus didn't even consider that they once belonged to Him did He?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Now Hebrews 10
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

Those who keep sinning are not born of God nor have seen Jesus nor known Him.

Yes, the sinner in Hebrews 10 is an ex-believer, not a born again person--sinning because of a conscious decision they have made to go back to unbelief. That's why they are sinning and why their sinning does not contradict 1 John 3:6,9. They are an ex-believer.

And, yes, they were an immature believer, having been known by God, but them not knowing God intimately, as in the case of the saved, but now unbelieving Galatians (Galatians 4:9) who fell away from faith in Christ and went back to the law for justification.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one falls away from Christ they didn't know Him. As is written they left us because they didn't belong to us.

Then why does John tell the true believers who didn't leave to let the word remain in them, if it is as you say that it can't help but to remain in them since they are true believers?

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father." - 1 John 2:24

What value is there in encouraging believers to remain in Christ by letting the word remain in them who can't ever not have the word of God remaining in them?
In your theology if you encourage them to hold fast the word, or you don't encourage them to hold fast the word, the word remains in them no matter what and they remain saved. So why does John tell them to let the word remain/abide in them if it can't help but to remain in them and they can never leave?

Obviously, 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what you insist it means. Verse 19 is talking about a specific group of people in a specific set of circumstances. He was not writing hard and fast doctrine about everyone who leaves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is scripture from 1 John. It speaks to the subject matter in question.

But how about the head of the body of Christ. Jesus didn't even consider that they once belonged to Him did He?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Yes, there will be many of these kinds of people.
Then there will be the kinds of people whom God did know but who did not know him and who fell away as a result (i.e., the Galatians - Galatians 4:9).
Why do you think Jesus had to be broad stroking ALL unsaved people in Matthew 7:23? The whole counsel of scripture shows us there are also ex-believers who practice lawlessness and will be condemned as a result.

 

[Randy]

Yes, there will be many of these kinds of people.
Then there will be the kinds of people whom God did know but who did not know him and who fell away as a result (i.e., the Galatians - Galatians 4:9).
Why do you think Jesus had to be broad stroking ALL unsaved people in Matthew 7:23? The whole counsel of scripture shows us there are also ex-believers who practice lawlessness and will be condemned as a result.

Those ex-believers as you state never belonged to Jesus. Those born of God are called the children of God. Jesus stated HE never knew them. So they couldn't have been at one time a child of God.

The same language as John.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

What does Hebrews 10 state
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

1 Those born of God don't continue to sin
2 Those that continue to sin have never known Jesus
3 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those ex-believers as you state never belonged to Jesus. Those born of God are called the children of God. Jesus stated HE never knew them. So they couldn't have been at one time a child of God.

I didn't say they did
Matthew 7:23 is plainly talking about those whom Jesus never knew.
It's obviously not talking about those who Jesus did know, but who fell away. Like the Galatians.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The same language as John.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

What does Hebrews 10 state
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Whether or not a person 'sees' him or 'knows' him is not what constitutes salvation.
You can be saved and not 'know' him.
It's whether or not Christ knows you that constitutes salvation.

We know this from the example of the Galatians.
They were very much saved (Galatians 3:1,2,3,4,5). This is not in dispute.
God knew them, but the problem was they did not know him (Galatians 4:9).
That weakness, that immaturity is what led to their falling away from faith in Christ.
And that's what the Bible says--it is the weak believer who is apt to not let the word abide in them and fall away (Luke 8:13,2 Peter 2:18), and as a result do not continue in the Son and the Father, and in eternal life (1 John 2:23,24,25).

Hebrews 10 is speaking of just such a kind of believer--the ex-believer.
Because they have gone back to sinning in unbelief they show they have not 'seen' or 'known' Christ. But Christ knows them (the chapter explains these are believers sanctified in Christ being talked about). Their sinning in unbelief does not show that they never believed (the text says they did). It shows they have not 'seen' or 'known' him! The problem is they are immature. Which the letter plainly says! (Hebrews 5:11,12,13,14, Hebrews 6:1) and the reason it was written.

 

[Randy]

Whether or not a person 'sees' him or 'knows' him is not what constitutes salvation.
You can be saved and not 'know' him.
It's whether or not Christ knows you that constitutes salvation.

We know this from the example of the Galatians.
They were very much saved (Galatians 3:1,2,3,4,5). This is not in dispute.
God knew them, but the problem was they did not know him (Galatians 4:9).
That weakness, that immaturity is what led to their falling away from faith in Christ.
And that's what the Bible says--it is the weak believer who is apt to not let the word abide in them and fall away (Luke 8:13,2 Peter 2:18), and as a result do not continue in the Son and the Father, and in eternal life (1 John 2:23,24,25).

Hebrews 10 is speaking of just such a kind of believer--the ex-believer.
Because they have gone back to sinning in unbelief they show they have not 'seen' or 'known' Christ. But Christ knows them (the chapter explains these are believers sanctified in Christ being talked about). Their sinning in unbelief does not show that they never believed (the text says they did). It shows they have not 'seen' or 'known' him! The problem is they are immature. Which the letter plainly says! (Hebrews 5:11,12,13,14, Hebrews 6:1) and the reason it was written.

I think when Jesus states I never knew you that means they never belonged to Him.
I already addressed Hebrews 10.

 

[Randy]

Whether or not a person 'sees' him or 'knows' him is not what constitutes salvation.
You can be saved and not 'know' him.
It's whether or not Christ knows you that constitutes salvation.

We know this from the example of the Galatians.
They were very much saved (Galatians 3:1,2,3,4,5). This is not in dispute.
God knew them, but the problem was they did not know him (Galatians 4:9).
That weakness, that immaturity is what led to their falling away from faith in Christ.
And that's what the Bible says--it is the weak believer who is apt to not let the word abide in them and fall away (Luke 8:13,2 Peter 2:18), and as a result do not continue in the Son and the Father, and in eternal life (1 John 2:23,24,25).

Hebrews 10 is speaking of just such a kind of believer--the ex-believer.
Because they have gone back to sinning in unbelief they show they have not 'seen' or 'known' Christ. But Christ knows them (the chapter explains these are believers sanctified in Christ being talked about). Their sinning in unbelief does not show that they never believed (the text says they did). It shows they have not 'seen' or 'known' him! The problem is they are immature. Which the letter plainly says! (Hebrews 5:11,12,13,14, Hebrews 6:1) and the reason it was written.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Those born of the Spirit know Him. Those not born of the Spirit don't know Him

 

[JLB]

That is scripture from 1 John. It speaks to the subject matter in question.

But how about the head of the body of Christ. Jesus didn't even consider that they once belonged to Him did He?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Yes, we have already acknowledged that there will be people who He never knew?

Now let’s get back to the subject we are discussing, which is a person who is “in Christ”, a “Christian”, a “brother in Christ“, who is no longer in Christ and therefore no longer has eternal life remaining in him.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


If eternal life does not remain in this brother, how can he still be saved?




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think when Jesus states I never knew you that means they never belonged to Him.

Who said it didn't mean that?
Matthew 7:23 is talking about people who Jesus never knew, because that's what Jesus plainly says he is talking about.
The mistake OSAS makes is it ignores the whole context of scripture and says this means every single person, without exception who Jesus does not know never knew him.

I already addressed Hebrews 10.

Yes, you did address it.
And you expressed the OSAS view of the chapter where "sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all", "made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified", and "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" (Hebrews 10:10,14,29) don't really mean a genuinely saved person. Quite ridiculous.
Of course, this is done in order to preserve a doctrine of OSAS.
Non-OSAS doesn't have to make passages of scripture not really mean what they say.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

All saved people are known by God.
But some saved people are immature and have yet to know God and are prone to falling away:

"9 ...now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces" - Galatians 4:9

It may take time, but if you are immature, eventually, if you keep believing and do not fall away under trial, Christ will bring you who are saved to know and see him just as he knows and sees you:

"5My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you." - Job 42:5

The promise of knowing God stands.
All of God's people will eventually come to know and see him.....if they don't bail out in unbelief and stop the sure work of God in them.

 

[Randy]

Yes, we have already acknowledged that there will be people who He never knew?

Now let’s get back to the subject we are discussing, which is a person who is “in Christ”, a “Christian”, a “brother in Christ“, who is no longer in Christ and therefore no longer has eternal life remaining in him.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


If eternal life does not remain in this brother, how can he still be saved?




JLB

As John wrote those that continue to sin have NOT known Jesus. And those that state they know Him but do not do what He commands are liars.

So those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth have rejected the covenant Jesus introduced by His blood. They will fall away because they are on their own. And if those that rejected the covenant Moses introduced perished how much more do those that rejected the covenant Jesus introduced deserve to perish. So the letter is written to those that didn't shrink back to remain firm and confident in their faith.

But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those born of the Spirit know Him. Those not born of the Spirit don't know Him

As I showed you, the Spirit-filled Galatians did not know him.
God knew them, but they did not know him. They were immature.
That's probably why these saved people fell away from faith in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth have rejected the covenant Jesus introduced by His blood.

The passage says those who trample on the blood of the covenant and go to hell as a result had been made perfect forever. That's a saved person.
How do you explain this in the light of your assertion that the passage is talking about unsaved people?

 

[Randy]

The passage says those who trample on the blood of the covenant and go to hell as a result had been made perfect forever. That's a saved person.
How do you explain this in the light of your assertion that the passage is talking about unsaved people?

Who are those people - those that continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth.
They did trample on the covenant Jesus introduced by His blood.

If your position is that those who continue to sin have known Jesus then I don't share it.

Do we need to keep going in circles?

 

[JLB]

But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39

The word draw back here denotes a turning away from battle, a shrinking back in cowardice because you want to live a little longer.

It infers apostasy.

1. the timidity of one stealthily retreating

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ὑποστολή hypostolḗ, hoop-os-tol-ay'; from G5288; shrinkage (timidity), i.e. (by implication) apostasy:—draw back.


If a soldier in the army deserts his fellow soldiers during battle because he doesn’t want to die, does this mean he was never in the army?


No, of course not.




JLB

 

[JLB]

If your position is that those who continue to sin have known Jesus then I don't share it.

This sums up the context of 1 John 3, as well as the whole New Testament.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If a brother in Christ hates his brother he no longer has eternal life remaining in him.


If you have a cup of water and you drink it all, so there is no more water remaining in the cup, does that mean the cup never had any water in it to begin with?

Of course not. By saying “remaining” the Holy Spirit is indicating the loss of what once was.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Again you keep implying “never had” to what clearly means
“no longer”.


Christians who “hate” (disobey God) no longer have eternal life remaining in them.



JLB

 

[Randy]

This sums up the context of 1 John 3, as well as the whole New Testament.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If a brother in Christ hates his brother he no longer has eternal life remaining in him.


If you have a cup of water and you drink it all, so there is no more water remaining in the cup, does that mean the cup never had any water in it to begin with?

Of course not. By saying “remaining” the Holy Spirit is indicating the loss of what once was.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Again you keep implying “never had” to what clearly means
“no longer”.


Christians who “hate” (disobey God) no longer have eternal life remaining in them.



JLB

We know God's message is eternal life and that life is in the Son.
Those that are born of God can not be deceived away or over powered away. Jesus protects them from the evil one.
I am free will but I can't see someone born of God committing eternal suicide by willfully throwing them self down. After all they loved Jesus and the evil one can't harm them.
So our answer to Jesus if He asked us if we wanted to leave Him would be in line with Peters. Where would we go for only in you is eternal life. And Jesus would reply have I not chosen you.
Born of the Spirit is not based on any human decision or any genealogy.

So if there is any line to be drawn its those that have the Spirit and those who don't have the Spirit. Since we preach to all different people it should be as the Apostles with all the warnings given NOT as OSAS.