“Not In The Flesh”

[netchaplain]

In the NT the word “flesh” means “old man” or sin nature nearly every time it’s used; the OT usage is always in reference to the physical body. Romans 8:9 gives the saint the most “exhorting” word! It speaks of the sin nature (“flesh”) being in the believer, but the believer is not in the sin nature (something only God can do), but “in the Spirit.” The crux of this stupendous spiritual-growth truth is that the “old man” can no longer cause the Christian to desire to sin. It’s what the desire is in the heart that God wants, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Mat 6:21). If our Father has our heart, He has the whole of us, because the treasure in a soul counts for all!

Paul owned up to the fact that the sin nature was his (Rom 7:14, 18). Thankfully he also owned up to the fact that it was no longer himself, after the new nature, that was sinning, but himself after the old man (vs 17, 20—which he was no longer a part of). He declared that he no longer desired to sin: “For that which I do I allow not” (v 15). This answers to his usage of the word “captive” (v23). A captive is held against his will and desire, thus his intention is to say that his sins are always against his desires; and this is where it all matters to God—in the desires of the heart.

Desire to please God instead of desire after the old man is exactly what God is always “working in us” (Phl 2:13). The saints desires after the new man (new nature) is all that the Father takes into account, thus His forgiveness and love are never broken, but are persistently and permanently exercised within us; as all He sees is that “treasure” (loving and pleasing God) which is eternally in the heart.

The gist of this entire issue is that Christians should never feel guilt concerning any issue, as God always brings us to repentance concerning our sins (unless we’re not really His yet). When we realize our sins we are still under God’s forgiveness because He knows we will always repent (1Jn 1:9); and it is the guilt that Christ’s Cross keeps us from (Mat 6:13), so that we can maintain an unbroken-peace as much as possible; so we can be used of Him, to draw the lost and strengthen the saved!!

NC

 

[for_his_glory]

We are all born with a sin nature/nature to sin and all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptation to sin.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of our sin. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[netchaplain]

We are all born with a sin nature/nature to sin and all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact.

Hi, and yes we "were sinners" and were without God's glory, but thankfully never again. Though we still sin it's never our desire now being reborn. God no longer sees us as sinners because, like Paul, "I do what I will not to do" NKJV.

This answers to his meaning of being a "captive" (Ro 7:23); like a captive being held against his will, his sins are against his desire and will. Then goes on to declare it's no longer himself in the new nature, but the old man doing it (Ro 7:17, 20). We are separated from our old man's (sin nature) guilt and dominion, but not his tempting (Ro 8:9).

Always appreciate your replies and encouragement Sis!

 

[Hopeful 2]

In the NT the word “flesh” means “old man” or sin nature nearly every time it’s used; the OT usage is always in reference to the physical body. Romans 8:9 gives the saint the most “exhorting” word! It speaks of the sin nature (“flesh”) being in the believer, but the believer is not in the sin nature (something only God can do), but “in the Spirit.” The crux of this stupendous spiritual-growth truth is that the “old man” can no longer cause the Christian to desire to sin. It’s what the desire is in the heart that God wants, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Mat 6:21). If our Father has our heart, He has the whole of us, because the treasure in a soul counts for all!

Paul owned up to the fact that the sin nature was his (Rom 7:14, 18). Thankfully he also owned up to the fact that it was no longer himself, after the new nature, that was sinning, but himself after the old man (vs 17, 20—which he was no longer a part of). He declared that he no longer desired to sin: “For that which I do I allow not” (v 15). This answers to his usage of the word “captive” (v23). A captive is held against his will and desire, thus his intention is to say that his sins are always against his desires; and this is where it all matters to God—in the desires of the heart.

Desire to please God instead of desire after the old man is exactly what God is always “working in us” (Phl 2:13). The saints desires after the new man (new nature) is all that the Father takes into account, thus His forgiveness and love are never broken, but are persistently and permanently exercised within us; as all He sees is that “treasure” (loving and pleasing God) which is eternally in the heart.

The gist of this entire issue is that Christians should never feel guilt concerning any issue, as God always brings us to repentance concerning our sins (unless we’re not really His yet). When we realize our sins we are still under God’s forgiveness because He knows we will always repent (1Jn 1:9); and it is the guilt that Christ’s Cross keeps us from (Mat 6:13), so that we can maintain an unbroken-peace as much as possible; so we can be used of Him, to draw the lost and strengthen the saved!!

NC

I think you should reread Rom 8:9..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You misinterpreted Rom 7 too.
Most of it is a narrative from Paul's preconversion life, while still in the flesh.

Those who have crucified the "flesh" with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), walking in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", (Rom 8:9), don't commit sin. (1 John 3:9, 5:18)
They have been reborn from God's seed !

 

[netchaplain]

I think you should reread Rom 8:9..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Hi, and thanks for the reply; though are understanding differs in these issues! It's my understanding that "not on the flesh" means not after the sin nature, since "flesh" here means "sin nature" or "the old man" (Ro 6:6). Believers are nullified for its "guilt" (Ro 8:1) and "dominion" (Ro 7:17, 20).

You misinterpreted Rom 7 too.
Most of it is a narrative from Paul's preconversion life, while still in the flesh.

The words used of Paul in Ro 7, esp. 14-25 cannot be those of one unregenerate. "I do what I will not to do" (v 20) is one of the phrases he often used to demonstrate his Dichotomy of duel natures, the old and new natures, which all who are reborn possess. Only Christians have two natures: The Lord Jesus had only one which was a divine nature of Deity; the unregenerate has only one.

Those who have crucified the "flesh" with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), walking in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh", (Rom 8:9), don't commit sin. (1 John 3:9, 5:18)
They have been reborn from God's seed !

To me, 1Jo 3:9 means one cannot sin "intentionally" or "willfully" (Heb 10:26). One would have to be devoid of the "old man" or sin nature to live sinless; and Ro 7:14-25 demonstrates the continued indwelling of the sin nature (Ro 7:17, 18,
20, 23).

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Tenchi]

In the NT the word “flesh” means “old man” or sin nature nearly every time it’s used; the OT usage is always in reference to the physical body. Romans 8:9 gives the saint the most “exhorting” word! It speaks of the sin nature (“flesh”) being in the believer, but the believer is not in the sin nature (something only God can do), but “in the Spirit.” The crux of this stupendous spiritual-growth truth is that the “old man” can no longer cause the Christian to desire to sin. It’s what the desire is in the heart that God wants, “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Mat 6:21). If our Father has our heart, He has the whole of us, because the treasure in a soul counts for all!

Hmmm... I think a better word than "flesh" is "carnal" which encompasses more than just the physical. There is nothing intrinsically evil about the body. It is the carnal mind that is the problem, for it is "not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). Such a mind responds to fleshly, physical impulses without the constraint, the control, of the Holy Spirit, making a "god" of the belly, or fleshly appetites (Philippians 3:18-19), and so, gratifying those appetites in sinful ways.

The "old man" (Romans 6:6) then refers to the carnal mind, a mind in rebellion toward God, self-serving and self-directed, bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil. (Romans 8:5-8; Ephesians 2;1-3; Titus 3:3, Colossians 1:21, etc.). All born-again believers have been separated from the sin-producing power of the "old man" by their co-crucifixion with Christ and never, therefore, have to sin.

Romans 6:1-12
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

This is entirely something God has done through Christ for us. No man can crucify himself. And so, we are crucified spiritually by God by His uniting us with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. This spiritual crucifixion has liberated us from Self and Sin and as we "reckon it so," by faith (Romans 6:11), we come to live, practically, more and more in it. The liberty from sin arising from our union with Christ isn't, then, a function of our desire but of our knowledge of, and our faith in, what God has done for us in Jesus Christ.

Paul owned up to the fact that the sin nature was his (Rom 7:14, 18).

Actually, Paul did not stay in the tension he described in Romans 7, but went on to point out the way to freedom from the struggle of chapter 7:

Romans 8:9-14
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

In his letter to the Galatian believers, Paul called what he described here as "walking in/by the Spirit" and declared that walking in/by the Spirit was the key to not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. See Galatians 5:16 and 25. Paul did not, then, think that the struggle of Romans 7 was in inevitable and unending one, but found full resolution to the struggle in what he described in both Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Desire to please God instead of desire after the old man is exactly what God is always “working in us” (Phl 2:13). The saints desires after the new man (new nature) is all that the Father takes into account, thus His forgiveness and love are never broken, but are persistently and permanently exercised within us; as all He sees is that “treasure” (loving and pleasing God) which is eternally in the heart.

Well, God would work in us His holy desires, but only when we are submitted to Him. He will not force His will and way upon us, wresting our desires, compelling us to want what He wants. And so, Paul urged his fellow believers repeatedly to yield themselves to God as "living sacrifices," daily submitting themselves to His will and way. As they did so, the Spirit would respond by filling them with his life, transforming them, and overflowing from them into the life of others. See Romans 6:13-22, Romans 8:14, Romans 12:1. See also James 4:7 and 1 Peter 5:6.

The gist of this entire issue is that Christians should never feel guilt concerning any issue, as God always brings us to repentance concerning our sins (unless we’re not really His yet).

???

1 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

1 Corinthians 6:1-6
1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

1 Corinthians 15:33-34
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 11:27-28
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

James 2:8-10
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

When we realize our sins we are still under God’s forgiveness because He knows we will always repent (1Jn 1:9); and it is the guilt that Christ’s Cross keeps us from (Mat 6:13), so that we can maintain an unbroken-peace as much as possible; so we can be used of Him, to draw the lost and strengthen the saved!!

As Paul's letters to the Early Church (and the letters of Peter, James and John, too) reveal, repentance is not a certain thing among genuine believers - especially if they are biblically-ignorant, or long in the habit of resisting the conviction of their conscience and the Holy Spirit. There was all sorts of carnality and sin going on among the members of the Early Church.

In any case, the blood of Christ cleanses us from the stain of sin, but it is his cross that frees us from power of sin. If we want guilt-free, unbroken fellowship with God, we must live by faith in the truth of Romans 6 and submit to God's will and way throughout every day. Only as we do, can we enjoy God unhindered and become a "vessel sanctified and meet for His use." (2 Timothy 2:21)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi, and thanks for the reply; though our understanding differs in these issues! It's my understanding that "not on the flesh" means not after the sin nature, since "flesh" here means "sin nature" or "the old man" (Ro 6:6).

As only the old body/man is subject to the unscriptural "sin nature", only the actual destruction of the old "human" will allow its rebirth as a new creature.

Believers are nullified for its "guilt" (Ro 8:1)

Perhaps you mean "delivered" from the now dead old man's guilt?
"Nullified for its guilt" doesn't make sense to me.

and "dominion" (Ro 7:17, 20).

For sure.
That which is dead has no more power in the new creature reborn from God's seed.

The words used of Paul in Ro 7, esp. 14-25 cannot be those of one unregenerate.

You are right, but it is a narrative from his pre-conversion time still in the "flesh".
He is recalling his failures while in the flesh and trying, unsuccessfully, to keep the Law.
7:8..."WERE in the flesh..." .
718..." For I know that in me (THAT IS, IN MY FLESH)"..., making sure the readers know he is referring to a past time.

"I do what I will not to do" (v 20) is one of the phrases he often used to demonstrate his Dichotomy of duel natures, the old and new natures, which all who are reborn possess. Only Christians have two natures: The Lord Jesus had only one which was a divine nature of Deity; the unregenerate has only one.

There is only one nature for those reborn of God's seed.
To infer otherwise makes God Himself the possessor of a second nature.
"Like Father, like son"...is an old expression that applies here.
Please be aware, too, that 7:23's "law of sin" has been done away with by Rom 8:2's..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
And, Rom 7:24's "body of this death" was already dealt with by Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Rom 7 is a before-and-after of Paul's religious life.

To me, 1Jo 3:9 means one cannot sin "intentionally" or "willfully" (Heb 10:26).

True, but there is no unintentional sin even for the unconverted...according to James 1:14-15

One would have to be devoid of the "old man" or sin nature to live sinless;

That was Jesus' mission.
Freedom from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

and Ro 7:14-25 demonstrates the continued indwelling of the sin nature (Ro 7:17, 18,
20, 23).

Only in those still walking after the flesh; only the unrepentant, unregenerated, still serve the "flesh", and commit sin.

God has freed us from all the "flesh's" past control.
We are new creatures; reborn of seed that cannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.
We are possessors of the gift of the Holy Ghost, and, having a new divine nature, capable of resisting the devil at every opportunity to do so.
Like Paul in Rom 7:25, the mind is now in control, and not the "flesh".
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hmmm... I think a better word than "flesh" is "carnal" which encompasses more than just the physical. There is nothing intrinsically evil about the body. It is the carnal mind that is the problem, for it is "not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be" (Romans 8:7). Such a mind responds to fleshly, physical impulses without the constraint, the control, of the Holy Spirit, making a "god" of the belly, or fleshly appetites (Philippians 3:18-19), and so, gratifying those appetites in sinful ways.

The "old man" (Romans 6:6) then refers to the carnal mind, a mind in rebellion toward God, self-serving and self-directed, bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil. (Romans 8:5-8; Ephesians 2;1-3; Titus 3:3, Colossians 1:21, etc.). All born-again believers have been separated from the sin-producing power of the "old man" by their co-crucifixion with Christ and never, therefore, have to sin.

Romans 6:1-12
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

This is entirely something God has done through Christ for us. No man can crucify himself. And so, we are crucified spiritually by God by His uniting us with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. This spiritual crucifixion has liberated us from Self and Sin and as we "reckon it so," by faith (Romans 6:11), we come to live, practically, more and more in it. The liberty from sin arising from our union with Christ isn't, then, a function of our desire but of our knowledge of, and our faith in, what God has done for us in Jesus Christ.



Actually, Paul did not stay in the tension he described in Romans 7, but went on to point out the way to freedom from the struggle of chapter 7:

Romans 8:9-14
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

In his letter to the Galatian believers, Paul called what he described here as "walking in/by the Spirit" and declared that walking in/by the Spirit was the key to not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. See Galatians 5:16 and 25. Paul did not, then, think that the struggle of Romans 7 was in inevitable and unending one, but found full resolution to the struggle in what he described in both Romans 6 and Romans 8.



Well, God would work in us His holy desires, but only when we are submitted to Him. He will not force His will and way upon us, wresting our desires, compelling us to want what He wants. And so, Paul urged his fellow believers repeatedly to yield themselves to God as "living sacrifices," daily submitting themselves to His will and way. As they did so, the Spirit would respond by filling them with his life, transforming them, and overflowing from them into the life of others. See Romans 6:13-22, Romans 8:14, Romans 12:1. See also James 4:7 and 1 Peter 5:6.



???

1 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

1 Corinthians 6:1-6
1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

1 Corinthians 15:33-34
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 11:27-28
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

James 2:8-10
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


As Paul's letters to the Early Church (and the letters of Peter, James and John, too) reveal, repentance is not a certain thing among genuine believers

Genuine believers, (the only kind of believer), are the only ones who HAVE turned from sin.

- especially if they are biblically-ignorant, or long in the habit of resisting the conviction of their conscience and the Holy Spirit. There was all sorts of carnality and sin going on among the members of the Early Church.

In any case, the blood of Christ cleanses us from the stain of sin, but it is his cross that frees us from power of sin. If we want guilt-free, unbroken fellowship with God, we must live by faith in the truth of Romans 6 and submit to God's will and way throughout every day. Only as we do, can we enjoy God unhindered and become a "vessel sanctified and meet for His use." (2 Timothy 2:21)

After all that, are you still going to say we can't live without sinning ?

 

[Tenchi]

After all that, are you still going to say we can't live without sinning ?

??? I've never said that a Christian "can't live without sinning."

 

[Hopeful 2]

??? I've never said that a Christian "can't live without sinning."

My apologies.
I thought you were a contributor on the "Perfect sinlessness is a heresy" thread. (para-phrased title)

 

[Tenchi]

My apologies.
I thought you were a contributor on the "Perfect sinlessness is a heresy" thread. (para-phrased title)

??? I am. Where in my remarks in the thread did I ever write that Christians can't live without sinning? Sure they can. Just not perfectly. Obviously.

 

[Hopeful 2]

??? I am. Where in my remarks in the thread did I ever write that Christians can't live without sinning? Sure they can. Just not perfectly. Obviously.

If we can, we can perfectly.
I don't adhere to any doctrines accommodating being in the "flesh" one day, and not in the "flesh" the next day.
We have either been reborn of God's perfect seed, or we have not.
We have either repented of sin, or we have not.
We either love God, or we love sin.
Our actions will determine which we have done, on the day of judgement.

 

[netchaplain]

I think you should reread Rom 8:9..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,

Hi, and appreciate your replies! It's my understanding that the word "flesh" here, and in most places in the NT means one's nature and not the physical body (the OT use of the flesh is nearly always the body). Scripture uses the word flesh to represent the "old man" or sin nature of man. Thus, "not in the flesh" means not in or after the old man. God has nullified the sin nature's guilt, "condemnation" (Rom 8:1) and its "dominion" over the believer (Ro 8:9). This doesn't mean no more sinning but no more desire to sin, for the desires for the saint is now forever to "please" God (Phl 2:13).

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi, and appreciate your replies! It's my understanding that the word "flesh" here, and in most places in the NT means one's nature and not the physical body (the OT use of the flesh is nearly always the body).

I agree.

Scripture uses the word flesh to represent the "old man" or sin nature of man. Thus, "not in the flesh" means not in or after the old man.

Agreed, juxtaposed to walking in the Spirit.

God has nullified the sin nature's guilt, "condemnation" (Rom 8:1) and its "dominion" over the believer (Ro 8:9).

A agree, with the stipulation that the old man was the one with the "sin nature", and is totally gone after rebirth from God's seed.
"Sin nature's guilt" sounds kinda fishy without knowing that old nature has been cast away.

This doesn't mean no more sinning but no more desire to sin, for the desires for the saint is now forever to "please" God (Phl 2:13).

Nobody sins without the desire to sin. (James 1:14-15)

Without the desire to sin, there will be no more sin.

 

[Tenchi]

If we can, we can perfectly.

Nope. I've already taken pains in other threads to show you from Scripture the errors in your thinking here. Please refer to them.

I don't adhere to any doctrines accommodating being in the "flesh" one day, and not in the "flesh" the next day.

That's nice. And so? What you do or don't adhere to makes no difference to what is clearly in evidence in God's word.

We have either been reborn of God's perfect seed, or we have not.

Repeating yourself doesn't make what you repeat true. As the record of God's word clearly demonstrates, genuine, born-again Christians can, and do, sin. I've pointed this out in detail in other exchanges with you in other threads.

1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11.
Galatians 3:1-3, 5
Ephesians 5:1-13
1 John 1:8-10
Revelation 2-3

And so on.

We either love God, or we love sin.

Loving sin is not necessarily mutually-exclusive of loving God. We can love our sin MORE than we love God; it is not necessary that in order to love sin we must cease to love God altogether. I get, though, that to hold your unbiblical views of sin, sweeping generalities are useful.

Our actions will determine which we have done, on the day of judgement.

Uh huh. This wasn't the case for those in the story of Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nope. I've already taken pains in other threads to show you from Scripture the errors in your thinking here. Please refer to them.

As you have just confirmed that we can obey God, there is no reason for the lovers of God to disobey Him.
Your attempted rebuttals to Jesus Command of Matt 5:48, were failures.
And to Paul's command in 1 Cor 15:34 too.

That's nice. And so?

So that is what you are trying to present.
A back-and-forth, double minded, relationship with God.
Light today, and darkness tomorrow.

What you do or don't adhere to makes no difference to what is clearly in evidence in God's word.

God never said we couldn't obey Him perfectly.
In fact, He commands we do so in Lev 11:44 and 1 Peter 1:16.
Why disobey God ?

Repeating yourself doesn't make what you repeat true. As the record of God's word clearly demonstrates, genuine, born-again Christians can, and do, sin. I've pointed this out in detail in other exchanges with you in other threads.
1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11.
Galatians 3:1-3, 5
Ephesians 5:1-13
1 John 1:8-10
Revelation 2-3

Back at you, but the fruit of your dogma only accommodates more sin.
Mine illustrates the power of God over the now dead "flesh".

Loving sin is not necessarily mutually-exclusive of loving God.

Yes, it is.
Jesus said no man can serve two masters, and that he will hate the one and love the other. (Matt 6:24)
Those that serve sin hate God.

We can love our sin MORE than we love God; it is not necessary that in order to love sin we must cease to love God altogether. I get, though, that to hold your unbiblical views of sin, sweeping generalities are useful.

More accommodation for the supposedly dead flesh won't provide redemption on the last day.
Only a real repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sin, and enduring faithfully until the end will do that.

Uh huh. This wasn't the case for those in the story of Matthew 7:21-23.

Are not those words enough to convince you that there is no good future ahead for the workers of iniquity ?

 

[netchaplain]

Nobody sins without the desire to sin. (James 1:14-15)

Without the desire to sin, there will be no more sin.

Paul said he had no desire to sin but did. "I do what I will not to do" (Ro 7:16); "the evil I will not to do, that I practice" (v 19). Regardless, it's not us in the new nature that sins; "no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me" (vs 17, 20). One would have to be void of the old man or sin nature to be sinless, and only Christ was the One.

 

[Tenchi]

As you have just confirmed that we can obey God, there is no reason for the lovers of God to disobey Him.

Right. But this doesn't mean they can't, or won't disobey Him - as the New Testament repeatedly indicates.

Your attempted rebuttals to Jesus Command of Matt 5:48, were failures. And to Paul's command in 1 Cor 15:34 too.

Well, you've not come anywhere close to demonstrating this. I get, though, that you have to tell yourself these sorts of things, being as invested in your views as you are.

So that is what you are trying to present.
A back-and-forth, double minded, relationship with God.
Light today, and darkness tomorrow.

Nope. Strawman.

God never said we couldn't obey Him perfectly.

Yes, He did. Over and over again, this is what is in evidence in His word. As I've already shown.

Back at you, but the fruit of your dogma only accommodates more sin.

Nope. Another Strawman.

Mine illustrates the power of God over the now dead "flesh".

Actually, what yours does is foster hypocrisy and lies and willfully contorts the truth of God's word.

Yes, it is.
Jesus said no man can serve two masters, and that he will hate the one and love the other. (Matt 6:24)

In context, this was in reference to serving God or Money (or materialism), not to obeying God or disobeying Him. But, as usual, you're content to misconstrue and take out of context God's word.

Those that serve sin hate God.

No, they just love sin more than they love God. I love chocolate more than I love honey, but I still do love honey. It's a matter of degree rather than of the presence or absence of love.

More accommodation for the supposedly dead flesh won't provide redemption on the last day.

Just more Strawman stuff. Got anything else?

Are not those words enough to convince you that there is no good future ahead for the workers of iniquity ?

Deflection. As usual.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul said he had no desire to sin but did. "I do what I will not to do" (Ro 7:16); "the evil I will not to do, that I practice" (v 19). Regardless, it's not us in the new nature that sins; "no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me" (vs 17, 20). One would have to be void of the old man or sin nature to be sinless, and only Christ was the One.

Paul was referring to the time he was still trying unsuccessfully to keep the Law of Moses.
When he was still walking in and after the "flesh".
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." (Rom 7:5)
he was walking in and after the Spirit after his conversion.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Right. But this doesn't mean they can't, or won't disobey Him - as the New Testament repeatedly indicates.

If they love God with all their heart, mind, and soul, they won't disobey Him.
If their love for God is false, they will commit sin.

Well, you've not come anywhere close to demonstrating this. I get, though, that you have to tell yourself these sorts of things, being as invested in your views as you are.

You demonstrated it yourself.
The views I express are the views of Jesus and His apostles, who all preached righteousness and love.

Nope. Strawman.

Choose your way of life.
In the light...which is God, or in the darkness...which is sin.

Yes, He did. Over and over again, this is what is in evidence in His word. As I've already shown.

Show one time where Jesus said we could never be righteous.
Quite to the contrary He said the truth could free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Nope. Another Strawman.

Isn't your goal a life which freedom to sin is a constant ?

Actually, what yours does is foster hypocrisy and lies and willfully contorts the truth of God's word.

God never preached sin and hate.
Neither did Jesus or His apostles.

In context, this was in reference to serving God or Money (or materialism), not to obeying God or disobeying Him. But, as usual, you're content to misconstrue and take out of context God's word.

In context, yes.
But if we use any other word but "mammon" the verse still holds the truth.
Serve sin, or serve God.
Nobody can serve both.

No, they just love sin more than they love God. I love chocolate more than I love honey, but I still do love honey. It's a matter of degree rather than of the presence or absence of love.

Do you realize you are calling Jesus a liar ?
Here is the verse again..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24a)
Is chocolate or honey a master whom you serve?

Just more Strawman stuff. Got anything else?

More accommodation for the supposedly dead flesh won't provide redemption on the last day.
Do you agree or disagree ?

Deflection. As usual.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
Are not those words enough to convince you that there is no good future ahead for the workers of iniquity/sinners ?