Are There Two Torahs?

[JohnD]

First of all, about the word Torah:

8451 תֹּורָה [towrah, torah /to·raw/] n f. From 3384; TWOT 910d; GK 9368; 219 occurrences; AV translates as “law” 219 times. 1 law, direction, instruction. 1A instruction, direction (human or divine). 1A1 body of prophetic teaching. 1A2 instruction in Messianic age. 1A3 body of priestly direction or instruction. 1A4 body of legal directives. 1B law. 1B1 law of the burnt offering. 1B2 of special law, codes of law. 1C custom, manner. 1D the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law.
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2001).

Just to make you aware of the argument that the word Torah is sometimes taken to mean "teaching" or "instruction" and is does not only mean the Law of Moses. Rest assured, I am referring to the Law of Moses as Torah. But also a second Law that of Christ, rather than it simply being another name for the Law of Moses. For the Apostle Paul (an Hebrew of Hebrews, champion of the Law of Moses to the point of persecuting the Church until he found out it was not in violation of the Law of Moses but in fulfillment of it) draws very precise distinctions between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ in at least three places in his epistles. Romans 7, Galatians 3 and 4 (some would argue all of Galatians), and 1 Corinthians 9:19-21.

1 Corinthians 9:19–21 (AV)
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

There is one more phrase, one more clause in the New American Standard version:


1 Corinthians 9:19–21 (NASB95)
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

...which the King James omits. Setting aside arguments for which Greek manuscripts they are based on, both say pretty much the same. And in the KJV omission one has only to consider the passage in Galatians 3:24-25 and other places in his epistles to show the KJV and the NAS are in complete agreement.

So in 1 Corinthians 9:19-21 above, Paul is drawing the distinction between the Law (of Moses) and the Law of God (the Law of Christ) which in and of itself poss major implications not only on the New Testament but the Old Testament as well. For there are times when God referred to "my law" or "the law of God" or the law of the Lord" and it was presumed to be other names for the Law of Moses which God gave him... but here according to Paul they were not.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB95)
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


I have been bounced from Messianic Jewish message boards for citing their Judaizing practices of bringing the Law of Moses into the Law of Christ (Old Covenant into New) in the name of keeping Torah... not to lambaste them but to try to help them. And they obviously did not want to hear it. I say this here and now not to ridicule our brothers in Christ but to make us all aware of this and to pray for them as we acquire a greater understanding of what the Bible says (not its messengers).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think the context helps us discern what the differences are between 'being under the law', 'without law', and the 'law of Christ'.

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. (1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NASB)

What's different about the law of Moses for the unbelieving Jew, the unbelieving gentile, and the believing Christian? We need to look at each one as it applies to each group. That is the question.

Not being under the law means four things, and if I can remember all four of them I'll post them, lol , but none of them means Christ, and faith him, does not fulfill and uphold the law of Moses in some way. We know that from Romans 3:31 NASB and Matthew 5:17-18 NASB and Romans 13:8-10 NASB.

 

[Malachi]

The term "the Law" has a variety of meanings in Scripture ranging from the whole of Scripture to just the Ten Commandments. Context determines what is being discussed. There are no "two laws" since the Law of Christ (also called the Law of Liberty) is nothing less than the Ten Commandments elevated to the Law of Love. So ultimately "love" or "charity" (agape) is the end of the Law, which is what Paul actually tells us (1 Tim 1:5).

 

[Choir Loft]

The term "the Law" has a variety of meanings in Scripture ranging from the whole of Scripture to just the Ten Commandments. Context determines what is being discussed. There are no "two laws" since the Law of Christ (also called the Law of Liberty) is nothing less than the Ten Commandments elevated to the Law of Love. So ultimately "love" or "charity" (agape) is the end of the Law, which is what Paul actually tells us (1 Tim 1:5).

Malachi's post #3 is incorrect. There are indeed two laws, at least for the purpose of discussion as stated by JohnD in his first post of this thread. Denying it doesn't nullify the debate.

For purposes of the discussion I will attempt a brief review of the two laws. This does not imply that I certify any of it, just that it is as valid as an argument between Calvin & Arminius.

The two laws are generally known as Moses Law (or Mosaic Law) and the Ten Commandments (or Royal Law).

The Royal Law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. (Romans 4:15)
When men broke the law they committed sin. (1 John 3:4)
The Royal Law will stand forever. (Luke 16:17).
The Bible also said that keeping the law is not grevious (1 John 5:3) also a possible argument against the theory of the Total Depravity of Man. But I digress in this point.....my apologies.
The Royal Law is perfect (Ps 19:7) and spiritual (Rom 7:14).

In contrast the Mosaic Law consisted of ordinances of diet, ceremony, observances of times and dates, animal sacrifices, etc.
The Mosaic Law was temporary (Gal 3:16, 19).
It ended at the cross. (Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14-16)
The Mosaic Law was added because of transgressions (Gal 3:19 again).
The Mosaic Law was carnal/physical. (He 7:16)
The Mosaic Law made nothing perfect (Heb 7:19)

Malachi's post also stated that he had been bounced from Messianic message boards for his words. Jews, even saved ones, have a big problem with those who divide the law and proclaim at least part of it void.

What do they believe happened on the cross?
Do they not know that the sacrifice of Christ was in accordance with the law and that the Mosaic law died with Him upon the tree?
Jews consider such talk foolishness.(1 Cor 1:18)
Always have. Always will. (no scripture, just me)

I submit that the curious Christian review the debate at least for its substantive points if not their personal theology.

In summary, there are two laws. The Mosaic law of diet, ceremony, sacrifice and so on was temporary and removed when Jesus died on the cross. The Royal Law is permanent, forever and perfect. It remains.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
The two law idea is a neat tool for argument opposing those in violation of morality and spiritual reverence. For example, the gay person might argue that 'according to the law' certain foods should not be eaten or that getting a tattoo is forbidden (Lev 19:28) - thereby justifying his sinful lifestyle. According to the two-law theory, Mosaic Law has been invalidated by the death of Christ and therefore stoning is no longer mandated, but because his/her gay lifestyle glorifies/worships the self (conceit) it still violates the 1st commandment/Royal Law. The gay person is therefore still a sinner in need of Christ's redemption. Other extrapolations may be added using the same logic.

 

[smaller]

First of all, about the word Torah:

8451 תֹּורָה [towrah, torah /to·raw/] n f. From 3384; TWOT 910d; GK 9368; 219 occurrences; AV translates as “law” 219 times. 1 law, direction, instruction. 1A instruction, direction (human or divine). 1A1 body of prophetic teaching. 1A2 instruction in Messianic age. 1A3 body of priestly direction or instruction. 1A4 body of legal directives. 1B law. 1B1 law of the burnt offering. 1B2 of special law, codes of law. 1C custom, manner. 1D the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law.
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2001).

Just to make you aware of the argument that the word Torah is sometimes taken to mean "teaching" or "instruction" and is does not only mean the Law of Moses. Rest assured, I am referring to the Law of Moses as Torah. But also a second Law that of Christ, rather than it simply being another name for the Law of Moses. For the Apostle Paul (an Hebrew of Hebrews, champion of the Law of Moses to the point of persecuting the Church until he found out it was not in violation of the Law of Moses but in fulfillment of it) draws very precise distinctions between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ in at least three places in his epistles. Romans 7, Galatians 3 and 4 (some would argue all of Galatians), and 1 Corinthians 9:19-21.

1 Corinthians 9:19–21 (AV)
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

There is one more phrase, one more clause in the New American Standard version:


1 Corinthians 9:19–21 (NASB95)
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

...which the King James omits. Setting aside arguments for which Greek manuscripts they are based on, both say pretty much the same. And in the KJV omission one has only to consider the passage in Galatians 3:24-25 and other places in his epistles to show the KJV and the NAS are in complete agreement.

So in 1 Corinthians 9:19-21 above, Paul is drawing the distinction between the Law (of Moses) and the Law of God (the Law of Christ) which in and of itself poss major implications not only on the New Testament but the Old Testament as well. For there are times when God referred to "my law" or "the law of God" or the law of the Lord" and it was presumed to be other names for the Law of Moses which God gave him... but here according to Paul they were not.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB95)
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Since this is somewhat wonderful topic matter, the TWO TORAHS, (and I haven't posted here in awhile) let's take a look at what really happened with Moses and the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments were actually delivered twice. The first time Moses came down from the mount, before Moses got back to the camp, Moses already knew the children of Israel had fallen into idolatry with the golden calf, and Moses broke the tablets. The children of Israel didn't even get to see them written on stone.

The second delivery came by Gods instructions to Moses to write them himself. So, Moses inscribed the commands again, the second time, himself. And in that effort, his face shined. This is a picture, in advance, of Grace, as Paul shows here:

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The law in this way, delivered to a flesh man, Moses, was described as the ministry of death, which it was and intended to be, as fading glory because "man sins." There is no "lasting glory," therefore it faded on the face of Moses just as it would fade for any person attempting to live under the ministration of death.

This is not to say that the ministration of death had no purposes. It surely does. Paul shows the vital necessity of this path in Romans 7 for himself, bringing him, personally to realize that the workings of the law brings "internal adversity" in his case, the form of every manner of concupiscence transpiring "within" himself, leading him to what I would term a rock solid conclusion, that evil was present within himself. Romans 7:21.

Paul concludes therefore that the "evil present" within him, and thusly within any person, can not be legal. It is basically impossible for this to transpire if we use the "internal measures."

Jesus used the internal measures:

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts,

And Jesus said it is these evil internal thoughts that defile us, meaning everyone. He reiterates this same principle again in Matt. 5:28 for adultery for example.

This same matter was shown, figuratively, in the delivery of the first commandment delivery. The people didn't see the law. They had already broken it before Moses even got back to the camp. This is an advance "picture" if you will of the struggle of the children of the flesh with the law.

The second law, same as the first, was again, a picture of the Grace to come in Jesus Christ.

Paul advances this measure considerably with the spiritual intentions of the law as Paul defined all the commandments, in Romans 13:8-10, showing that any commandment means thusly: to love our neighbors as ourselves.

So there are the two torahs. One visible, the law or ministration of death, and the second torah, to love our neighbors, the spiritual intentions that are written within the first laws.

The children of the flesh can not see the second law, nor can they submit to this conclusion of Paul. They will see those laws merely as "external commands" when they are not. Those "laws" are meant to inflame lawlessness within, until we realize that "evil" is in fact present within us in the form of defiling evil thoughts, which we are to rule and reign over IN LOVE.

We will never make the evil present within legally obedient. We can however RULE as Jesus showed us to rule and therefore fulfill the spiritual intentions of the law ourselves. Never attempting to justify the internal evil, but if anything, exposing this matter as Paul exposed himself, internally.

It's actually quite fascinating. Very engaging. This is the essence of the two edged sword that Jesus Is. To divide us from evil. And to rule over it in love.

Whenever we think that the evil present within has somehow been made legal, we've lost the efforts, and the chances of falling into hypocrisy loom very large.

Under Grace the "evil present" within anyone can not be justified or condoned. That too is impossible.

Ultimately a believer has to sit down and reason with this matter from the Word, and come to an honest conclusion, before they'll see these things.

 

[JohnD]

I have personally found a huge resistance among Jewish believers to the notion that the Law of Moses was in Paul's own words the Law of Sin and Death. God instilled in them a veneration for the Law that preserved it through hell and high water (or history). So I really cannot fault them for trying to protect the Law from what is by all appearance to them an assault on the Law (their beloved Torah).

Missler pointed out in his commentary on Acts 15 that the concern of the Church / Jewish council with what was to come of the Jewish people. In other words God called forth / separated the Jewish people to usher into the world the Word of God in two forms:
1. the written form (the Bible)
2. the Word personified (Jesus Christ).

And this New Covenant, and the new man we become in this New Law, didn't appear to have anything to do with the distinction of Jewishness even back in those days (Acts 15). But in fact, it does. Romans 7 draws a clear distinction between the physical and the spiritual and applies the two laws to each (respectively). The Law of sin and death to the flesh and the Law of life to the spirit. This being the over all point of the Bible itself.

Look at how the Apostle Paul defined Jewishness:

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This distinction goes back at least as far as...

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

And according to Romans 9:6 there is a physical Jew and a spirit Jew:

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Otherwise the text is utter nonsense.

Now look at the Gospel of (or "in") the Old Testament:

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (AV)
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

No mention of Gentiles... in this writing of Jeremiah (the Prophet to the Gentiles).

Galatians 6:13–16 (AV)
13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

In Spirit Israel / Spirit Jewishness:

Galatians 3:28 (AV)
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female†† : for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

†† referring to the physical distinctions under the New Law.

And this was and is a lot for the (physical) Jewish people to swallow.

This is not to mention the underlying antisemitism many if not most Gentiles (including believers in Jesus) harbor in themselves. And they do not want to face or even consider the Jewishness of the faith.

 

[smaller]

Missler pointed out -/- the Word of God in two forms:
1. the written form (the Bible)
2. the Word personified (Jesus Christ).

Missler is correct in that sight. Every Word of God became Jesus. Jesus was raised. Spirit of Christ sent "into" our hearts.

Therefore Every Word of God in the spiritual sense abides "within" all believers. Jesus Is "The Living Law" written upon our hearts, as Every Word of God. That's also why it's quite pointless to deny a single Word of God when all of Gods Word is technically "alive" and still is to this day.

And this New Covenant, and the new man we become in this New Law, didn't appear to have anything to do with the distinction of Jewishness even back in those days (Acts 15). But in fact, it does. Romans 7 draws a clear distinction between the physical and the spiritual and applies the two laws to each (respectively). The Law of sin and death to the flesh and the Law of life to the spirit. This being the over all point of the Bible itself.

Look at how the Apostle Paul defined Jewishness:

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This distinction goes back at least as far as...

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

And according to Romans 9:6 there is a physical Jew and a spirit Jew:

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Otherwise the text is utter nonsense.

I studied law vs. Grace for well over a decade, trying to find a "remedy" between these two (infighting) camps within christianity. I was sharing my personal frustration with a dear believing friend of mine, whom I did not know during that time, but met at the end of my frustrations, who shared a critical component of understanding Law that I had not factored into the equations.

Our discourse kind of went like this.

Me: [expressed my frustrations in trying to remedy law vs. Grace]
Friend: Who is the Law against?
Me: The lawless and sinners, citing Paul's fact from 1 Tim. 1:9, and since we are all sinners post salvation, it would appear that the law then remains applicable to "sinners." We know not to steal/murder, etc etc.
Friend: Would you consider the devil and his messengers to be lawless?
Me: Why, I would suppose that to be the case. Utterly so!
Friend: Then why wouldn't the Law be against them as well?
Me: I hadn't considered that aspect.
Friend: Where does Jesus show us that these "entities" are?
Me: IN MAN!

Ding! Followed simultaneously by [gulp] because I knew that this conclusion was going to be very personally uncomfortable.

So in any analogy of "WHO" is Israel," the first place Paul takes us is this: Who is NOT Israel but is with Israel?

If you observe the track above it should be quite clear. And that is the analysis that Paul proposes. That Israel was "internally captured" by the devil and his messengers, primarily in the form of "spiritual blindness" which caused them not to hear or see The Word. This is the base case that Paul makes for his entire theology structure and it is entirely Rock Solid.

For example, Paul, in Romans 11:8, shows that it was a "spirit of slumber" or "stupor" that was "put upon" the unbelievers of Israel. And that malady was upon essentially every last one of them.

We may observe, in the most simple way possible, that Christ is "against" the anti-Christ spirit(s). Yet it is the very Word of God that pushes Satan and his messengers to RESIST Christ. It is not just "man" that is moved to action because of The Word. Jesus shows us for example in Mark 4:15 that Satan is also "moved" to enter people's hearts, wherever the Word is sown. And that action continues to this day, yes even in believers, in the form of "internal temptations." This is also the internal cause of every Christian RIFT.

So, who is not Israel but is with Israel to this day? Uh, yeah, the spirit of slumber/stupor that is not them, but is of Satan, the anti-Christ spirit, who has blinded them to Jesus Christ. Quite a compelling case can be easily made from the scriptures, and "has been" made by Paul:

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

And this "big dilemma" of the Jews can evaporate in an instant, were God in Christ to make this not to be the case. God in Christ is Perfectly Capable to make that blindness disappear in an instant for ALL of them, but it continues, in behalf of us, the Gentiles, until the fulness of the Gospel is delivered to the "world" of people that are not physical Jews and the cycle of the Gospel completes it's courses with us.

So when we observe "who" is NOT a Jew but is with Israel, we may observe it is the spirit of slumber or stupor that God Himself put upon them in rather precise fashions.

Another "angle" to observe is that in the O.T. sense, they, in their spiritual blindness, only perceived The Law as an external matter of obedience i.e. if a person did not steal, they were obedient. Jesus "magnified" the law to make the mere thought of THEFT a sin, an evil that transpires "within." Even without the external act. And this to make us aware of the "presence" of the lawless one(s).

And it's actually at this point of recognition, that one "sees" or falls into blindness themselves, in thinking that lawlessness is only about "themselves as individuals." When it's not.

It is quite pointless to attempt to make the "tempter" legal or obedient. We can not be justified under the law because of "internal evil" that we are all bound with. And people generally do not like to hear of this, and prefer to "judge themselves" only in "outside" perspectives. To put on "airs." To think they are "legal" on the outside when in fact on the "inside" they might be quite a raging inferno of various expressions of lawlessness.

Now look at the Gospel of (or "in") the Old Testament:

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (AV)
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

No mention of Gentiles... in this writing of Jeremiah (the Prophet to the Gentiles).

Galatians 6:13–16 (AV)
13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

In Spirit Israel / Spirit Jewishness:

Galatians 3:28 (AV)
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female†† : for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

†† referring to the physical distinctions under the New Law.

And this was and is a lot for the (physical) Jewish people to swallow.

This is not to mention the underlying antisemitism many if not most Gentiles (including believers in Jesus) harbor in themselves. And they do not want to face or even consider the Jewishness of the faith.

Part of the reason the anti-Christ spirit continues to work against the physical lineage of the Jews in the form of anti-semitism is for this cause: When they do finally SEE, it will be and mark "the end" of the devil and his messengers.

Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul has already "forecast" this for us to ponder. In the meantime we are to A. Not deny any Word of God, but Hold Him forth. And to extend them MERCY, as we have so received same from Above in Jesus Christ.

 

[childeye]

Missler is correct in that sight. Every Word of God became Jesus. Jesus was raised. Spirit of Christ sent "into" our hearts.

Therefore Every Word of God in the spiritual sense abides "within" all believers. Jesus Is "The Living Law" written upon our hearts, as Every Word of God. That's also why it's quite pointless to deny a single Word of God when all of Gods Word is technically "alive" and still is to this day.


I studied law vs. Grace for well over a decade, trying to find a "remedy" between these two (infighting) camps within christianity. I was sharing my personal frustration with a dear believing friend of mine, whom I did not know during that time, but met at the end of my frustrations, who shared a critical component of understanding Law that I had not factored into the equations.

Our discourse kind of went like this.

Me: [expressed my frustrations in trying to remedy law vs. Grace]
Friend: Who is the Law against?
Me: The lawless and sinners, citing Paul's fact from 1 Tim. 1:9, and since we are all sinners post salvation, it would appear that the law then remains applicable to "sinners." We know not to steal/murder, etc etc.
Friend: Would you consider the devil and his messengers to be lawless?
Me: Why, I would suppose that to be the case. Utterly so!
Friend: Then why wouldn't the Law be against them as well?
Me: I hadn't considered that aspect.
Friend: Where does Jesus show us that these "entities" are?
Me: IN MAN!

Ding! Followed simultaneously by [gulp] because I knew that this conclusion was going to be very personally uncomfortable.

So in any analogy of "WHO" is Israel," the first place Paul takes us is this: Who is NOT Israel but is with Israel?

If you observe the track above it should be quite clear. And that is the analysis that Paul proposes. That Israel was "internally captured" by the devil and his messengers, primarily in the form of "spiritual blindness" which caused them not to hear or see The Word. This is the base case that Paul makes for his entire theology structure and it is entirely Rock Solid.

For example, Paul, in Romans 11:8, shows that it was a "spirit of slumber" or "stupor" that was "put upon" the unbelievers of Israel. And that malady was upon essentially every last one of them.

We may observe, in the most simple way possible, that Christ is "against" the anti-Christ spirit(s). Yet it is the very Word of God that pushes Satan and his messengers to RESIST Christ. It is not just "man" that is moved to action because of The Word. Jesus shows us for example in Mark 4:15 that Satan is also "moved" to enter people's hearts, wherever the Word is sown. And that action continues to this day, yes even in believers, in the form of "internal temptations." This is also the internal cause of every Christian RIFT.

So, who is not Israel but is with Israel to this day? Uh, yeah, the spirit of slumber/stupor that is not them, but is of Satan, the anti-Christ spirit, who has blinded them to Jesus Christ. Quite a compelling case can be easily made from the scriptures, and "has been" made by Paul:

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

And this "big dilemma" of the Jews can evaporate in an instant, were God in Christ to make this not to be the case. God in Christ is Perfectly Capable to make that blindness disappear in an instant for ALL of them, but it continues, in behalf of us, the Gentiles, until the fulness of the Gospel is delivered to the "world" of people that are not physical Jews and the cycle of the Gospel completes it's courses with us.

So when we observe "who" is NOT a Jew but is with Israel, we may observe it is the spirit of slumber or stupor that God Himself put upon them in rather precise fashions.

Another "angle" to observe is that in the O.T. sense, they, in their spiritual blindness, only perceived The Law as an external matter of obedience i.e. if a person did not steal, they were obedient. Jesus "magnified" the law to make the mere thought of THEFT a sin, an evil that transpires "within." Even without the external act. And this to make us aware of the "presence" of the lawless one(s).

And it's actually at this point of recognition, that one "sees" or falls into blindness themselves, in thinking that lawlessness is only about "themselves as individuals." When it's not.

It is quite pointless to attempt to make the "tempter" legal or obedient. We can not be justified under the law because of "internal evil" that we are all bound with. And people generally do not like to hear of this, and prefer to "judge themselves" only in "outside" perspectives. To put on "airs." To think they are "legal" on the outside when in fact on the "inside" they might be quite a raging inferno of various expressions of lawlessness.




Part of the reason the anti-Christ spirit continues to work against the physical lineage of the Jews in the form of anti-semitism is for this cause: When they do finally SEE, it will be and mark "the end" of the devil and his messengers.

Romans 11:
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Paul has already "forecast" this for us to ponder. In the meantime we are to A. Not deny any Word of God, but Hold Him forth. And to extend them MERCY, as we have so received same from Above in Jesus Christ.

Hi smaller, good to see you posting. Another thought provoking post.

 

[Corn Pop]

Moses - You shall not.
Jesus - You shall.

The both fit perfectly. I like how Jesus summed it up easy in 2 commandments. If you do these 2 the do nots are fullfilled.

If you love God you will have no idols and if you love your neighbour you wont lie, steal, adultary, falsely accuse and do any type of evil. The law of moses is completely fullfilled in "you shall". Jesus full of wisdom and Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Moses - You shall not.
Jesus - You shall.

The both fit perfectly. I like how Jesus summed it up easy in 2 commandments. If you do these 2 the do nots are fullfilled.

If you love God you will have no idols and if you love your neighbour you wont lie, steal, adultary, falsely accuse and do any type of evil. The law of moses is completely fullfilled in "you shall". Jesus full of wisdom and Holy Spirit.

Which is pretty ironic when you consider the 'I don't have to' mentality of the church today.

 

[childeye]

Which is pretty ironic when you consider the 'I don't have to' mentality of the church today.

The mentality of the True church is I get to.

 

[Corn Pop]

Which is pretty ironic when you consider the 'I don't have to' mentality of the church today.

I just find it amazing how one small verse in the old covenant Abraham gave the High Priest a tenth of all he had and for some reason because of something Abraham did they say you must also but everything else for some reason is fullfilled. Everything is fullfilled in the bible except a tiny sentence that says Abraham gave a tenth. Christ fulfilled everything but the tithe says the church.

For the filth of her riches have reached the heavens.

 

[Corn Pop]

She is filthy. Her pyramid sceme is a disgrace.

 

[Corn Pop]

10% of money is fine to the church to put God first as he should come first but apart from money to become rich the rest does not matter. They dont say give 10% of your time to God like 24 hours in a day 10% i guess God should get minimum 2 and a bit hours of worship a day. No, 10% material riches is good enough for God the church says and fulfills what Abraham did as a must do.

Hey 2000 years ago John the baptist ate locusts. Should we all eat locusts?. Hey Jesus wore sandles. Should we all were sandles?.

 

[JohnD]

Missler is correct in that sight. Every Word of God became Jesus. Jesus was raised. Spirit of Christ sent "into" our hearts.

Therefore Every Word of God in the spiritual sense abides "within" all believers. Jesus Is "The Living Law" written upon our hearts, as Every Word of God. That's also why it's quite pointless to deny a single Word of God when all of Gods Word is technically "alive" and still is to this day.


I studied law vs. Grace for well over a decade, trying to find a "remedy" between these two (infighting) camps within christianity. I was sharing my personal frustration with a dear believing friend of mine, whom I did not know during that time, but met at the end of my frustrations, who shared a critical component of understanding Law that I had not factored into the equations.

Our discourse kind of went like this.

Me: [expressed my frustrations in trying to remedy law vs. Grace]
Friend: Who is the Law against?
Me: The lawless and sinners, citing Paul's fact from 1 Tim. 1:9, and since we are all sinners post salvation, it would appear that the law then remains applicable to "sinners." We know not to steal/murder, etc etc.
Friend: Would you consider the devil and his messengers to be lawless?
Me: Why, I would suppose that to be the case. Utterly so!
Friend: Then why wouldn't the Law be against them as well?
Me: I hadn't considered that aspect.
Friend: Where does Jesus show us that these "entities" are?
Me: IN MAN!

Ding! Followed simultaneously by [gulp] because I knew that this conclusion was going to be very personally uncomfortable.

So in any analogy of "WHO" is Israel," the first place Paul takes us is this: Who is NOT Israel but is with Israel?
{{ snip }}.

Romans 7 (AV)
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

1 Corinthians 9:19–21 (NASB95)
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jeremiah 31:31–34 (NASB95)
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NASB95)
6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Smaller, the outcome of the inward man is what is at stake. I understand where you are coming from about the devil and his followers in the lives of people today. But they and their realm preceded this one. And I believe this realm and God's plans for it are the result of what happened previously in that realm.

 

[smaller]

Romans 7 (AV)
Smaller, the outcome of the inward man is what is at stake.

Paul has already shown us the fate of the inward man as it pertains to unbelieving Jewish enemies of the Gospel in Romans 11:25-32. So I don't know why you would "worry" about them. Enemies serve their purposes too. They were and are today made that way by Gods placement of a spirit of slumber upon them so they can not see or hear Gods Words or understand them. I respect Gods calls on these matters and am helpless to say otherwise.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

The Jews could have had one Torah or a thousand Torah's, but if God does not give a heart of understanding, what good is it? Obviously God has something else in mind in all of these matters or the above wouldn't have been a FACT. But it is a fact and it is so to this day.

I understand where you are coming from about the devil and his followers in the lives of people today. But they and their realm preceded this one.

The spiritual blindness of the people of Israel to be either unbelievers or against the revealings of Christ is a continuing matter to this day. And the workings of God in showing how and why this happens hasn't changed from the beginning of mans time on earth. I only observe the matters of scripture to find understandings of why this is. And there are abundant answers therein to observe.

No Jew could believe if their life depended on it, IF God does not give a heart of understanding, of hearing, of seeing. God could certainly make them or anyone understand and hear at any time. So these things are not our call. We can share, we can love, we do not have to condemn them.

And I believe this realm and God's plans for it are the result of what happened previously in that realm.

Understanding the courses of things from the biblical perspective is interesting, but it seems to be very diverse topic matter. I'm sure God has a lot of plans. But the chessboard of life is a little bigger than any one of us can control. Ultimately I believe Gods plans are good, and that He is Perfectly Capable of bringing things about, whatever those things may be, to the good. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't bother believing.

Jesus has broken the Bread of Life for us to handle and to ingest. As to who is called into this matter is well beyond my control. I really have no idea why I was, I just was. We could circumcise our males or perform any number of religious ceremonies and do any matters of discourses with others, but only God in Christ can circumcise a heart. None of us have the "tools" necessary to perform that.

The Jews were not given any favors from God. Every person who came out of Egypt over the age of 20, save for TWO, Joshua and Caleb, were destroyed in the desert and did not enter the promised land because of "unbelief" inclusive of both Moses and Aaron.

I'd have to observe in retrospect the odds were pretty slim for the lot of them. Even after personally witnessing ALL those miracles, they still died in unbelief. Don't you find that a bit incredible?

Scriptures teach us that the hearts of mankind are deceitfully and desperately wicked, above all things. Hard as STONE. I have no problems believing this. If we consider the vastness of creation, and our own hearts are/were deceitfully wicked above all things, then this earth is a very very wicked and deceitful place. And I believe God made it to be that way. Who am I to say otherwise? It's readily apparent to any observer.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Is any person of us able to challenge the collective hearts of this world? Uh, no. The collective hearts of this world are set firmly and Divinely in wicked deceitful stone.

It's a miracle that there is a remnant.