Are we assured security in Heaven...?

[cyberjosh]

I've been discussing alot lately about whether a Christian has security in Christ once they are regenerated, if God will bring to completion the Salvation which he has already given us a measure of. But if we don't have security here on earth I have a more serious question, something which I thought of a long time ago, which outcrops from the Arminian perspective that we are never secure in our salvation, because it is all based on today: What is to say that once we get to heaven with Jesus that we cannot also become like Lucifer and be puffed up with pride of our glory and fall from heaven? If we have insecurity of salvation on earth then why should we have security in heaven? It stands to reason to ask.

I have talked to francisdesales a little about this and I wanted to respond to what he said. He wrote:

There is no insecurity in heaven because our hope will be MORE than fully realized. Lucifer was already there, seeing the glory of God. He nevertheless decided he did not want to give of himself (the definition of love), but to get for himself. Those who will enter the Kingdom will not have this desire of selfishness, because NOTHING impure shall enter heaven. NOt even selfish desires! All such selfish desires will be eliminated - (I as a Catholic believe this will be done in Purgatory - but that is another subject) and it can be no other way, because God is a God of Love. We CANNOT join fully with a giving God if WE are not ALSO giving of ourselves. Thus, our will will be directed towards God when we enter heaven. There will be no desire or concern for self (re-read 1 Cor 13 on what love is - "no concern for self").

Those in heaven will love - which means they will have no concern for themselves, only for their Beloved. Then, our joy will be complete, as our faith and hope is realized and all that is left is Love.

There will also most certainly be shame of our past life and different levels of glory and different privilages and statuses in Heaven, though we will be worshiping God. Lucifer had cause for his self-exaltation because he considered himself the most spectacular of all. There is nothing to say that we can't also do the same and fall unless God can keep us totally. As for your mention of purgatory, that interjects an external feature into Biblical theology to try to explain away the different levels of Christian development which cannot comprehensively be explained otherwise, thus it becomes a convenience to say that all will have purified themselves completely in a place such as purgatory. Also more problems arise in line with what I just asked about falling in this life and falling in heaven. What if you can fall away in purgatory? Logic must dictate that also. Unless you say that God can assure you of your cleansing at which point I have got you caught by making a confession of it. Think this through carefully.

--------------------

I would like everyone to think very carefully on this and consider the eternal ramifications of our salvation, and to what degree and in what sense it is realized right now. Would we not have no cause for rejoicing as the Bible comands so often if we could not have any assurance in Christ? Our joy would be as fleeting and vain, floating in uncertainty, as the temporal joy of pagan unbelievers if that were so, or so it seems. What is the verdict on this?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Quath]

I am not a believer, but I figure I would weigh in anyway for the fun of it.

I think this can be educed to a simplier problem. Will a person have free will in heaven? If so, then they could blasphemy the Holy Spirit and get kicked out. If they can not, then we have lost free will.

For example, if Hitler did repent before he died, he could be in heaven. Would he never blasphemy? If Hitler is good enough not to blasphemy, then why assume the souls in hell would not fit in withe the ideals of heaven?

That brings up a follow-up. Can the souls in heaven gain salvation? If a soul in hell said "I believe that Jesus is the son of God and he died for my sins" then can he go to heaven? If not, why not? Why would God reject him?

I think the most simplistic model is that someone can lose salvation in heaven and go to hell and someone can gain salvation in hell and go to heaven.

 

[golfjack]

reply

John 6:37: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out.

What a basis for faith! There is no such thing as a person coming to Him and being cast out. Jesus said, ...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 3:14-21: 14. And so Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is coindemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, thast his deeds may be maniffest, that they are wrought in God.

John 5:24: verily verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

We have the intelligence to see for ourselves what the Bible says. Do not listen to the interpretations of men who will tear apart the simple Scriptures and leave us confused.

They do not care for your soul or they would not seek to rob us of our true Christian experiences. If they had a love for us at all, they would at least permit us to believe the Bible just as it is.

When they fight so hard to rob us of these benefits , we would be fools not to wake up and see that they are agents of the devil in sending men to hell. It matters not that they are the most refined and wonderful religious men you have ever met, they are not ministers of God if they are robbing us of God's blessing

The Bible says, And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of rigteousness; whose end shall be according to their works ( 2 Cor. 11:14, 15).

Folks, we should be enjoying being saved and the truth is we do have eternal security found in our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. ( 2 Cor. 5:17).


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

What a basis for faith! There is no such thing as a person coming to Him and being cast out. Jesus said, ...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I tend to agree with you, but I've been in debates long enough to know the rebuttal: "But that doesn't mean you can't walk away yourself. Nothing can seperate us from the love of Christ.... except yourself."

That's what I'm trying to find a proper rebuttal too, if there is one. There seems to be pros and cons to each view so I wonder where they reconcile....I have put forth in other threads that it is our job to persevere but God puts his good will in us to accomplish it through us, though while us not being passive in the process. But I also see sense in the counter arguement that God will not force us into anything. I'm just wondering how the promises and the warnings coincide and what basis we have for hope or certainty if the promises are conditional until the day we die. But I'll look into this more.

But as of right now I'm exploring a con of the view of no security. I'm trying to extrapolate conclusions from that view to see what basis we have for security by exploring the ramifications of such a view.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe the answer is found in one's understanding of the New Birth.

With the unbeliever the trouble is found in the heart, which we see in Mark 7:21-23). It is the inward man where we find the trouble, it's the spirit of man. Merely to reform the outward man or the outward life will not save one.

We see, out of Christ, every man is rotten in the heart. And mere outward correctness of life, apart from Christ, is artificial aznd the practice of hypocrites. Jesus said of those He called hypocrites, ... for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleaness ( Matt. 23:27).

In the New Birth, our spirits are recreated. ( our bodies are not. It is in our spirit wher4e all things have become new. We still have the same bodies we always had). There is a man who lives inside the body. Paul calls him the inward man. He calls the body the outward man.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[stranger]

Hi Cybershark5886,

Basically I would like to add to the answer already offered. 'History' won't repeat itself in a cyclic fashion. It will be directed to a new beginning - a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

So redemption has a broader cosmic ramification than just for the redeemed community - as important as that is. Apart from 'existential' moment by moment concerns of salvation now - and its continuance into the new heavens and the new earth - there is also a disjunction - a permanent separation of all that conspires against the Lord and His anointed.

Most importantly there is a copyright ownership / worksmanship issue - you are not your own after Christ has redeemed you - before you were - now your not. So unless our Lord decides to 'sell' you there will be no prodigal son leave without pay in the new heavens and the new earth.

blessings: stranger

 

[Bick]

Are we assured security in heaven?

Hi Cybershark and others:

To begin with, The Bible is an account of God's plan of redemption for all mankind. Mankind of his own "free" will would never come to the Lord:

Rom. 3:11ff "There is none righteous, not not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, there is none that doeth good, no not one." KJV.

Oh, we make decisions every day, even to do "good" or not, but apart from our hearing the gospel, and believing, through the grace of God, none would be saved. The gospel, the "good news", when believed, is the power of God for Salvation (Rom. 1:14-17).

And, upon believing, a miracle takes place! The Holy Spirit then makes it's home in us! Rom. 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh; you are in the spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Read all of chapt. 8).
1 Cor. 3:16ff "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" NIV.

Further, in 2 Cor. 1:21-22, we read "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He annointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

We know that "greater is He that is in you, then he that is in the world." John writes this in 1 John 4:4 "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." AV. NOTE: "them" refers to false spirits and false prophets.

And if all this is true now, it will be even moreso in heaven, for, as Paul tells us in 1 Cor.15:51ff, both the dead in Christ, and we who are alive, will be changed to have spiritual bodies---fit for the celestials, after meeting Christ in the air.

So, Cyber-- the wonderings of your mind are just that.

Concerning Satan's so called "fall": IMO he was created as his name means, "the adversary". Those passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel describe human beings. Now, they are no doubt types of the antichrist.

Bick

 

[cyberjosh]

Concerning Satan's so called "fall": IMO he was created as his name means, "the adversary". Those passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel describe human beings. Now, they are no doubt types of the antichrist.

I don't believe that. Jesus said himself that he saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning. So we know he fell. Also there is no reason to disregard the interpretation of the chapters in Isaiah and Ezekiel that are traditionally associated with him just because it talks about kings. In Daniel Gabriel fought with the "prince of Persia" for 21 days until Michael could come to his aid. Gabriel was not battling against a human, this was a demonic manifestation as "prince" or "ruler" of Persia. Similarly Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2) and the "god of this world" who also had the power to offer kingdoms of the earth to Jesus (when he tempted him). Plus, I sincerely doubt that God would have created a being with a nature directly contrary to himself. As Genesis says God wanted to create things "good", and naturally things degenerated.

At any rate I think my question still stands. My view on salvation has taken a bit of a revision now but I still find this a thought-provoking question. Why could we not also become proud of our position and fall?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Diolectic]

Are we assured security in Heaven...?

Yes, only if we choose to stay abiding in Him.

 

[Solo]

Are we assured security in Heaven...?

Yes, only if we choose to stay abiding in Him.

Is Salvation, God's Salvation or Man's Salvation? In other words is the Salvation a FREE GIFT from God to those whom the Holy Spirit reveals the Word of God to, or is Salvation the product of man's ability to perform righteous living?

Are those who are born again able to overcome the Holy Spirits seal on them? All who are born again are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

• 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, F1 and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:10-14

 

[cyberjosh]

Well Solo I don't want to turn this into a salvation discussion primarily but let me begin by saying that the OP was asked in light of the assumption that one can lose their salvation. And if that is possible then what else is possible?

Secondly to address your arguement about the seal. I once thought about the seal in the same way you do. Infact it wasn't too long ago that I did either. But I realized that I had never investigated the word seal or in which way or sense it was used in. I used to think of the word seal according to the natural definition we would give it - something which closes something up to keep it from getting out/something securing - kinda like a cork in a bottle. However this is not the primary sense in which the Bible uses the word seal in "seal of the Holy Spirit". Seals in the OT were distinguished by the imprint upon them which was given by either the scribe's or King's signet ring which they would impress upon the seal to identify it and give the contents of the enclosed letter authority and credit. When King Xerxes "placed his seal" on Haman's petition to kill all Jews it didn't mean that the King actually had to go fetch the clay or putty with which to enclose (the traditional idea of "sealing" something up) the letter (because that was the slaves or scribe's job) but his part was impressing his signet ring upon the seal which was already in place. So the seal is primarily an identifier rather than a functional seal which cannot be broken.

Another use in the NT to support this interpretation is Romans 4:11 which says, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." Now circumcision isn't a seal in that it keeps anything in or out. That sense of the word does not fit here. However we all know that circumcision was a sign. So when God says that he has sealed us with the Holy Spirit he is placing his identifying mark on us, claiming us as his Child, impressing our heart as a soft seal with his signet ring - the Holy Spirit, and is circumcising our hearts. But, sadly, this does not mean that we will always follow God. Not all those who were circumcised under covenant were Godly. Circumcision meant nothing if God was not obeyed. Now granted you must have had to have first obeyed to even recieve a spiritual circumcision (salvation) but this is not to say that it cannot be undone, for unlike physical circumcision spiritual circumcision can be undone, like Hebrews warns us "Do not harden your hearts". A king cannot impress his signet ring on hard clay to seal something, it must be soft. And Ezekiel chapter 18 warns of a righteous man turning to wickedness, and Jesus says we will know people by their fruits. So if you backslide and run from God and do not heed his lovingly warning chastisement of Hebrews 12 you will make an obvious sign to all that you are not God's, that you have renounced him as your spiritual father, and you commit the tradgedy of Hebrews 6:4-6.

Study the seal, you will see a new aspect you probably never have seen before. God promised to write his law on the tablet of our heart, but you can't write anything on hard clay. This is directly parallel to God impressing his signet of the Holy Spirit on us as his identifying seal, and if we harden our hearts we no longer have God as our banner and identifying seal. The seal can be broken my friend.

P.S. Solo you know that this is nothing against you personally. I actually agree with you more than most people here on the boards. But I must speak my mind in sincerity on the matters of the Word.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

I've been discussing alot lately about whether a Christian has security in Christ once they are regenerated, if God will bring to completion the Salvation which he has already given us a measure of. But if we don't have security here on earth I have a more serious question, something which I thought of a long time ago, which outcrops from the Arminian perspective that we are never secure in our salvation, because it is all based on today: What is to say that once we get to heaven with Jesus that we cannot also become like Lucifer and be puffed up with pride of our glory and fall from heaven? If we have insecurity of salvation on earth then why should we have security in heaven? It stands to reason to ask.

I have talked to francisdesales a little about this and I wanted to respond to what he said. He wrote:




There will also most certainly be shame of our past life and different levels of glory and different privilages and statuses in Heaven, though we will be worshiping God. Lucifer had cause for his self-exaltation because he considered himself the most spectacular of all. There is nothing to say that we can't also do the same and fall unless God can keep us totally. As for your mention of purgatory, that interjects an external feature into Biblical theology to try to explain away the different levels of Christian development which cannot comprehensively be explained otherwise, thus it becomes a convenience to say that all will have purified themselves completely in a place such as purgatory. Also more problems arise in line with what I just asked about falling in this life and falling in heaven. What if you can fall away in purgatory? Logic must dictate that also. Unless you say that God can assure you of your cleansing at which point I have got you caught by making a confession of it. Think this through carefully.

--------------------

I would like everyone to think very carefully on this and consider the eternal ramifications of our salvation, and to what degree and in what sense it is realized right now. Would we not have no cause for rejoicing as the Bible comands so often if we could not have any assurance in Christ? Our joy would be as fleeting and vain, floating in uncertainty, as the temporal joy of pagan unbelievers if that were so, or so it seems. What is the verdict on this?

God Bless,

~Josh

Yes we are guaranteed eternal security once we are born again. Ephesians 1:4 and 1 Peter 1:4. Once we are born again, we cannot become unborn again.

 

[Diolectic]

Is Salvation, God's Salvation or Man's Salvation?

It is man's salvation, Why would God need saved?

is Salvation the product of man's ability to perform righteous living?

Why would choosing to stay abiding in Him be called "performing righteous living?"

Are those who are born again able to overcome the Holy Spirits seal on them?

Man is able to take up damnable doctrins and be decieved. Doing so, man walks way from God and forfits his relationship with Christ which is giving up Eternal life.[/quote]

 

[Guest]

It is man's salvation, Why would God need saved?

I believe the question was meaing: Who saves? Does God save or does man save?

 

[cyberjosh]

Does God save or does man save?

God preforms the saving work in us but we must apply it. God saves actively in the form of grace. However grace can be recieved in vain, as Paul says. This is why we are warned to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and to take heed lest we think we stand and instead fall. Salvation is God's work but it is our job to allow him to work it effectively in us (sanctification). A believer can harden their heart to God, believe me its possible. If down the road it grows into absolute callousness they are on the road to destuction. We must "grow in respect to salvation" (1 Peter 2:2) in order to obtain "the outcome of your faith: the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9). OSAS is not real. Perseverance of the Saints comes closer to the idea but still misses the mark. Those who reject the Holy Spirit once saved can fall (Hebrews 6:4-6), else the repetitive warnings to believers are useless and in vain.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Secondly to address your arguement about the seal. I once thought about the seal in the same way you do. Infact it wasn't too long ago that I did either. But I realized that I had never investigated the word seal or in which way or sense it was used in.

Josh,

You explain it Scripturally better than I did... Hopefully, people will openly accept what you offer.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,

You explain it Scripturally better than I did... Hopefully, people will openly accept what you offer.

Regards

Well thank you. You really did teach me something by raising that point in the other thread. I had alot of bottled up knowledge on seals & signet rings already but I never had thought to evaluate the "seal of the Holy Spirit" in that light, but it infact makes perfect sense and is far more theologically rich as an identifyer than something that just bottles us up like a cork.


P.S. I replied to you in the Apocrypha thread. I look forward to your reply.

God Bless,

~Josh