quote by mondar on Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:49 pm
[quote:cbb77]unred: Nowhere in Romans is anyone elected to salvation or damnation.
Heh, well, when Paul speaks of election in Romans 9, why do you think he starts the chapter with a concept of salvation? The Chapter begins with a statement of Pauls heartfelt pain.
Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart.
Now why do you think Paul is depressed in verse 2? What will you say, unred, do you think Paul was depressed because he could not get his favorite MD, Dr. Luke, to write a prescription for prozac?
Verse 3 tells us that Paul wishes he could be accursed for the sake of his countrymen.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Paul, the great apostle to the gentiles, had a favorite targets of his evangelism. In may of the cities he went to in the book of Acts he evangelized the Jews of the dispora. Paul, the apostle had a great passion for evangelizing Jews. He had a desperate desire to see Jewish people saved. This desire was so great, that he penned in verse 3 is desire to be forsaken by Christ for the sake of his fellow Jews.[/quote:cbb77]
Small point here. Paul is not talking about his countrymen but his actual brothers, his blood kin. How many of us have had brothers, sisters, father or mother who were not following the Lord that we would have gladly given up our place in heaven if we could see them turn from sin and to the savior? Read it again:
9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh
quote by mondar:
This great passion concerning individual salvation is part of Paul's great discourse on election. Unred, the conversation was on Romans 9, but I dont have to even leave Romans 9 to show individual election. Yet you say individual election is nowhere in any part of Romans.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
To say that there is no concept of individual election, you would have to say that being conformed to the image of his son is not referring to salvation. Conforming us to the image of his Son is the whole purpose of salvation. It is just a macro view of salvation. We are then predestined to salvation in the larger sense of the word. Now I do not deny that there is a national election, but it would be a gross absurdity to think of any nation being conformed to the image of Christ.
The Word was conformed into the image of his Son. God knew the Word from before the foundation of the world. Paul probably never dreamed that anyone in their right mind would suppose that this referred to individuals who were not even thought of, let alone born, before the creation of the world. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. You weren’t with God. You didn’t even exist. Hard to imagine, isn’t it? But it makes sense, doesn’t it? You didn’t exist before Adam was created. It’s doubtful you even existed before you were conceived. Your conception was the beginning of you. That’s as far back as you can go. What kind of ego do you have, to believe you were there before Adam? Talk about gross absurdity.
quote by mondar:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Individual election to salvation is clearly a biblical doctrine.
In the beginning, you were interested in ‘works’ and now you concentrate on ‘election’. Do you think I mean that you were interested in ‘works’ from the beginning of this thread or the beginning of this post or the beginning of the creation of the world? Clearly you wouldn’t expect the latter. But when you see the word ‘beginning’ in Paul’s writing, why do you immediately and solely relate it to the beginning of creation? Very strange phenomena.
quote by mondar:
[quote:cbb77] unred: Romans 9:11 is only to specify which twin will be the royal lineage of God’s son.
Hehe, you gotta be kidding me? Tell me I am misunderstanding you. You are actually suggesting that Romans 9:11 is about the election of an individual to kingship or linage in the line of Christ? The only way you could get this out of the context is if the material in Matthew 1 preceeded Romans 9:11. Please check, are the pages of your bible sticking? Did you miss the material between Matthew 1 and Romans 9:11? There is absolutely nothing in the context about royal linages.[/quote:cbb77]
No kidding. You actually missed something, right there in the first five verses of chapter nine, where one would expect to see an opening statement to the next topic discussed:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, a n d t h e p r o m i s e s; (i.e. the promised messiah from the lineage of David…. )
5
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
There ya go. Amen.
quote by mondar:
The entire purpose of Paul placing Romans 9:11 in the context is not to say that the issue of election concerns who will be in the royal linage, but Romans 9:11 is there to demonstrate that election is not based upon works.
Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
The point of election Paul is making is that it is not of works. In the material you wrote you is saying the exact opposite that Paul says in verse 11. I must admit I am amazed that anyone could read verse 11 and then say the exact opposite of what verse 11 says. You say election is by works, verse 11 says it is "not of works." So then when your read not of works you think that means it is of works. Think hard on this next question..... Could it be that when Paul said that election is "not of works" that he actually meant what he said?
I fully understand election here is not by works. Election here is being elected to the lineage of Christ, getting your name in the genealogy list. It was a big deal back then before TV and Oprah and getting to be famous for 15 minutes for having the current biggest heartbreak.
quote by mondar:
Now I will admit, that in your next sentence you said....
[quote:cbb77]unred:What did he base this choice on? Not works but it was a sovereign choice based on things he did not disclose.
but soon you are saying the exact opposite....
unred wrote: Looks like they were the elect until they blew it. Moses tries to put in a good word for them:
They were ‘the elect’ as long as they followed God. If they disobeyed, God could easily destroy them and raise up ‘the elect’ from the descendants of Moses.
God is going to watch them, however, for signs of true repentance before he decides their fate..
Now I suspect I know why you write these self contradictory things. You are going to bring in a new definition for works that will simply wild.[/quote:cbb77]
That’s big of you to admit I actually said what I said. Let me explain why you are having a problem reconciling the two seemingly contradictory statements. For election to the nation of Israel or the lineage of Christ, there are no works involved so if you are in this elect, you have only been sovereignly chosen by God to be so gifted with these honors by birth into the physical family of Abraham. But the spiritual sons of Abraham are chosen by their faith in the word of God, just as their spiritual father Abraham was. Abraham believed God and did what God told him to do. If you believe God and do what God tells you to do, you are a spiritual son of Abraham. See? It’s not hard. It just seems contradictory.
quote by mondar:
You also say
Romans 9:15 is in reference to Exodus 33:19.
Of course this would be correct. Paul quotes Exodus in verse 15. After you say this, you go on this discourse of Exodus and apply it to the concept of election. You really need to read Pauls application to verse 15. I think his application is obviously inspired of the Holy Spirit. Now where do you think Paul put his application of verse 15. Would it shock you if you found out that Paul put his own application of verse 15 in the very next verse. Verse 16 is Pauls application.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Now who do you think the person is that willeth? Now think hard, could it be the person that is elected. Do you think it was Isaac that willed? Was it Jacob that willed? Of course election is then not of the person that wills. Isaac and Jacob did nothing to get elected to salvation. The text say, that is is "of God that sheweth mercy." In other words, when you said...
What did he base this choice on? Not works
BINGO, unred gets the prize!!! That is Pauls view of Exodus.
Hey, we agree on something. Baby steps. You’ll come around, Mondar.
quote by mondar:
[quote:cbb77]unred: God agrees to bring them into the promised land and makes the covenant with them conditional to their obedience to laws that he repeats to Moses.
You are correct that the Mosaic is a conditional covenant. But this is meaningless in light of the new covenant. The new covenant trumps the mosaic covenant for Israel. God promised to give Israel all the obedience it needs.
Under the mosaic covenant it was impossible for Israel to obey because....
Deu 29:4 but Jehovah hath not given you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Under the new covenant they will obey because
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:[/quote:cbb77]
God turned the Israelites back into the wilderness to wander for forty years. He was punishing them for what? Think back to Miss Beulah’s third grade Sunday School class… because they didn’t believe God so he sent them back to the desert unto the time when Moses stood before their children and recited the words of the law that they were now ready to hear since all their faithless fathers were dead. It’s true. Check out Deuteronomy 29:29:
“The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.â€Â
quote by mondar:
So then, no one ever obeys God. No one seeks God, no one is righteous, all are sinners. God select to make some righteous, but even those who are righteous, it is not their own works, but it is simply the act of God. Yes, I know faith is involved, but without God's efforts, no one would have faith. It is God that changes hearts and gives obedience. It is God that elects, no one can elect themselves by their own works.
Really? What about these:
Jeremiah 35:17-19
17Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.
18And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel;
Because you have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.
Haggai 1:12
Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.
Genesis 7:1
And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
1 Kings 14:8
And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it you: and yet you have not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes;
1 Kings 15:5
Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
1 Kings 15:11
And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father.
2 Kings 18:3
And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
2 Kings 22:2
And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in all the way of David his father, and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left.
2 Chronicles 6:23
Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.
2 Chronicles 14:2
And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God:
2 Chronicles 24:2
And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.
2 Chronicles 31:20
And thus did Hezekiah throughout all Judah, and wrought that which was good and right and truth before the LORD his God.
2 Chronicles 34:2
And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in the ways of David his father, and declined neither to the right hand, nor to the left.
Psalm 7:11
God judges the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Psalm 11:5
The LORD tries the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence his soul hates.
Psalm 11:7
For the righteous LORD loves righteousness; his countenance does behold the upright.
Psalm 15:1-3
1Lord, who shall abide in your tabernacle? who shall dwell in your holy hill?
2He that walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his heart.
3He that backbites not with his tongue, nor does evil to his neighbour, nor takes up a reproach against his neighbour.
Psalm 34:15
The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.
Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivers him out of them all.
Psalm 37:17
For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholds the righteous.
Psalm 58:11
So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judges in the earth.
Psalm 75:10
All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.
Psalm 97:11
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.
Psalm 112:4
Unto the upright there arises light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.
Psalm 119:40
Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
Psalm 125:3
For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity.
Proverbs 10:2
Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivers from death.
Proverbs 10:16
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passes, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.
Proverbs 11:5
The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.
Proverbs 11:6
The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.
Proverbs 11:18
The wicked works a deceitful work: but to him that sows righteousness shall be a sure reward.
Proverbs 11:21
Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Proverbs 13:9
The light of the righteous rejoices: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
There are lots more but the mods get upset if I post too many verses.
quote by mondar:
Unred, give up your works righteousness. Come to the gospel and the grace of God. Trust in him for that righteousness, he will save you.
I do trust Christ for my righteousness. I can't be perfect without his blood.
Just for chuckles, read this:
Ezekiel 3:19-21
18When I say unto the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
19Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
20Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand.
21Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.