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[_ Old Earth _] Bill Nye v AIG Creation Museum

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I've read some reviews of the debate and found that both men were gracious and respectful of each other and kept it very civil. Though my personal opinion is that Bill Nye shouldn't have accepted this debate in the first place. My personal position is that Creationis, in itself is not science, but a religious position with science used to justify it. Just like Naturalism or Skepticism. I have nothing against people being creationists, but for the most part creationism will never be accepted as fully being science.

From what I understand from the reviews is that those that agreed with Hamm from the beginning were not persuaded by Nye, and Hamm spent most of the debate changing the names of terms, rephrasing terms, and referring back to "historical science" when put into a corner.

I've long grown tired of these debates because I've learned enough from Young earth Creationists, old Earth Creationists, Naturalists, and Skeptics to know that the debate has been the same topics for the last 20 years.
 
I suppose I should look and see, but I'm not encouraged. Nye isn't a great mind in biology. I hope he was a better debater than a biologist.
 
I heard that he (Nye) gets $30,000 per speaking engagement. Not sure what he was paid for this though.
 
I notice that the question starts with the assumption that science and creation are at odds, and what Hamm is selling is creation. Nye messed up by giving them that false assumption from the start.

I see in the opening that Hamm is trying to redefine "science" to mean only those things directly observable by man. So much for forensics, fire investigation, etc. Following that, he states that conventional science says that man is "only" an animal. Then he equivocates the methodological naturalism of science, with ontological naturalism, and therefore atheism.

Nothing new there.

Nye nails him on the "historical science" scam, but fails to point out that creation and creationism are entirely different things. Nice touch, twitting creationists on the fact that the fossil record is entirely inconsistent with YE creationism.

I notice that Hamm set up a strawman that scientists claim that YE creationists can't do science. He then trots out a number of such scientists, but no biologists. There are a few biologists who are YE, but Hamm is pretty unhappy with the opinions of those creationists.

Big goof by Hamm, claiming that atheistic scientists depend on the 'Christian' scientific method. It was mostly developed by the Ionan Greeks (pagans) and the Arabs (Muslim). But I doubt if many in the audience realized it. Let's see if Nye gets him on that.

Hamm played the "you can't depend on radioactive elements" card. Let's see if Nye nails him on the evidence from Pompeii and Lake Sugutsu, showing that the method works. Again, Hamm is pretending that if you accept science as it exists today, that you can't accept creation.

Hamm then reworks genesis to make it "reproduce after their kind".

Hamm wrongly claims that the "tree of life" was Darwin's invention. In fact, that was discovered by Linnaeus. Hamm claims that "observational science" is scientists finding that dogs have a common ancestor, while the same evidence shows bears, seals, cats, and dogs have a common ancestor. Let's see if Nye nails him on that.

(skip to Nye)

Nye starts talking about fossils. Millions of layers of ancient life under the ampitheater. Impossible to have formed in such a short time. Good shot.

Mentions ice cores in continental glaciers. 680,000 winter/summer cycles. Nice, but he didn't mention how we know. Varves would be more effective, since they are demonstrably seasonal, due to pollen differences in the light/dark layers. Mentions ancient trees, much older than the flood. Not bad.

Nye discusses the layers in the Grand Canyon, but fails to mention the deserts and forests that would have had to form in the middle of the Great flood. Another Nye failure. Good about the ancient river beds cut through by the modern canyon. Also good, asking why there aren't Grand Canyons in all continents. Hits once more on the fact that fossils are inconsistent with creationism. The old "rabbit in the Cambrian" point.

Nye did well in showing up the ludicrous idea of an "Australian land bridge", and questioning why there are no fossils of kangaroos anywhere but Australia, and not a sign of any land bridge. Mentions perhaps 16 million species, from supposed 7000 kinds, that would mean eleven new species every day. Great shot. Should have followed up with many millions of species of large mammals. Something like the entire land surface of the Earth having maybe a dozen of them per acre. (about a football field). How did they all feed, raise young, etc?

I'll have to end it here. Maybe I'll look in later.



Mentions Lake Missoula, with an ice dam breaking.
 
Why don't they i introduce something like this..

"A five million-year-old piece of bone that was thought to be a collarbone of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib, ...He [Dr. T. White] puts the incident on par with two other embarrassing [sic] faux pas by fossil hunters: Hesperopithecus, the fossil pig's tooth that was cited as evidence of very early man in North America, and Eoanthropus or 'Piltdown Man,' the jaw of an orangutan and the skull of a modern human that were claimed to be the 'earliest Englishman'.

"The problem with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone.'"

Dr. Tim White (anthropologist, University of California, Berkeley). As quoted by Ian Anderson "Hominoid collarbone exposed as dolphin's rib", in New Scientist, 28 April 1983, p. 199

tob
 
Why don't they i introduce something like this..

"A five million-year-old piece of bone that was thought to be a collarbone of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib, ...He [Dr. T. White] puts the incident on par with two other embarrassing [sic] faux pas by fossil hunters: Hesperopithecus, the fossil pig's tooth that was cited as evidence of very early man in North America, and Eoanthropus or 'Piltdown Man,' the jaw of an orangutan and the skull of a modern human that were claimed to be the 'earliest Englishman'.

"The problem with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone.'"

Dr. Tim White (anthropologist, University of California, Berkeley). As quoted by Ian Anderson "Hominoid collarbone exposed as dolphin's rib", in New Scientist, 28 April 1983, p. 199

tob
Because it doesn't effect the correct data from Nye's argument, and Answer in Genesis/ Hamm have stopped using these cartoony anti arguments because there are just as many if not more from dishonest "creation" scientists that have done the same.

Just because one person lies, doesn't mean everyone lied about everything. There is no way to sustain a theory as challanged as evolution if everything was lies.
 
Why don't they i introduce something like this..

"A five million-year-old piece of bone that was thought to be a collarbone of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib, ...He [Dr. T. White] puts the incident on par with two other embarrassing [sic] faux pas by fossil hunters: Hesperopithecus, the fossil pig's tooth that was cited as evidence of very early man in North America, and Eoanthropus or 'Piltdown Man,' the jaw of an orangutan and the skull of a modern human that were claimed to be the 'earliest Englishman'.

"The problem with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone.'"

The issue, of course is that scientists debunked each of these errors. For example, we don't know who planted the Piltdown forgery (he was pretty clever in his work, but not clever enough; an "evolutionist" exposed it as a fake). Likewise, a dinosaur expert thought he found a hominid tooth, but when a mammal expert took a look at it, he quickly discovered it was a peccary (not a pig) tooth, oddly worn down in a way that made it look like that of a primate. If the argument is that we can't depend on science, because scientists sometimes make errors, then we can't have buildings, airplanes, or religion in our lives.

Dr. Tim White (anthropologist, University of California, Berkeley). As quoted by Ian Anderson "Hominoid collarbone exposed as dolphin's rib", in New Scientist, 28 April 1983, p. 199

Probably true of anthropologists, but of course they aren't fossil experts. When the paleontologists got a look at it, the error was easily discovered. Peer review does wonders for this kind of thing. Perhaps you heard of the faked feathered dinosaur that took in National Geographic. It was actually two (very important and valuable) fossils put together. Scientists asked the magazine to wait for peer review, but they went ahead and published. And were embarrassed when examination showed that it was actually two different fossils.

Piltdown man is one of the reasons we have peer review; if the actual fossils had been available for study reviewing scientists, the fraud would have been discovered much earlier. To be fair, scientists were inclined to discount it, because it contradicted evolutionary theory; the theory was that upright stance and human-like bodies preceded large brains. Piltdown seemed to suggest the opposite. If you look at books on human evolution at the time, Piltdown man was sort of off in a corner by itself; an anomaly that didn't quite fit the rest of the evidence.
 
Being a scientist and a Christian I believe that science and Bible do co-exist if given a chance. To me the study of science has only increased my belief that God exists. I have heard all the the theories about creation, the young earth theory, the old earth theory, the gap theory and the list goes on and on. Have you ever wondered why only the first three chapters of Genesis is devoted to the creation? Then the rest of the Bible is about how God redeemed mankind. I think if the details of creation were important to God, He would have given them to us. He is focused on the redemption of mankind. So is all this nonsense about evolution just a way to distract us from what is really important and that is the Great Commission?
 
Then the rest of the Bible is about how God redeemed mankind. I think if the details of creation were important to God, He would have given them to us. He is focused on the redemption of mankind. So is all this nonsense about evolution just a way to distract us from what is really important and that is the Great Commission?

Wisest observation on this thread, so far. Well done.
 
My wife and I went to a baptist church who streamed the debate live. I thought it was a good debate but wondered why Ken didn't get more scientific than he did. My wife replied, "He prayed for weeks about the debate, God gave him the words people needed to hear". Those words stuck in my ears.

A friend of mine and I have lunch often. The next day he tells me about our friend, who just happens to be athiest. Our friend tells him, "Did you watch the debate last night? Wow, Ken answered so many questions that I've had! I'm going to check him out!"

It's not about winning arguments, it's about winning souls...
 
[URL='http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?members/barbarian.917/' said:
Barbarian[/URL] ]I notice that the question starts with the assumption that science and creation are at odds, and what Hamm is selling is creation. Nye messed up by giving them that false assumption from the start.

Actually, Nye kept asserting that a creationist couldn't be a scientist...
 
Actually, Nye kept asserting that a creationist couldn't be a scientist...

Didn't catch that, but if he said that, he's as wrong as Hamm is, for thinking there's a dichomotomy between creation and evolution. No such exists. Indeed, many prominent scientists are believers. Hamm has confused his particular sect with Christianity.
 
Just curious about that sect Hamm belongs to.. does it have a name.. :)

tob

*edit: spelling Hamm is Ham
 
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I notice that the site has Hamm in a tizzy, because Biologos accepts the canonical version of the Bible that never had a "worldwide flood." "Worldwide" is Hamm's revision of God's word.

Hamm is particularly incensed at Biologos, after he told one convention of homeschoolers that if they let Biologos in, he wasn't coming. It didn't work out the way Hamm expected.

YE creationism has become an idol for Ken Hamm, poor fellah.
 
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