Chopper
Member
who is the 'he ' you speak of?
That would be the antichrist. As in 2 Thess. 2, the antichrist sets himself up as God, thus the abomination of desolation.
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who is the 'he ' you speak of?
The 70th week follows directly after the 69th week, or else it wouldn't be the 70th week.
I suppose one could say today we are in the 352nd week.
Or if you need to believe the '70th' week has yet to happen then we could be counting down hide-and-seek style at the 69-and-282/283rd week. Wait, that's silly because it would still put us beyond the 69th week, which is into the 70th week.
I don't know what you mean by this statement. It is not in Daniel 9:27.
... for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
Are you saying Jesus is the Desolater of the temple?
So we have two choices in which to apply "he" to in Daniel 9:27.
Choice #1 - the prince who is to come.
Choice # 2 - Messiah the Prince
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate , even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate .
Jesus is Holy and does not desolate the holy place or the temple.
- "he" shall make it desolate, by the abominations. - for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...
I believe this scripture is referring to the prince who is to come, who is a ruler on earth during the 70 th week, just like the rulers on earth began and influenced the 70 weeks, starting with Cyrus.
God in heaven, initiated and influenced human rulers to began and and be involved in the 70 weeks.
The 70 th week has nothing what so ever to do with the year 70 AD.
JLB
#2 - Messiah
Parable of the wedding.
Mat 22:6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Jesus is the only Prince who was promised to Israel, the Messiah.
Jesus is Holy. Conversely, by rejecting Christ and His teaching, the Jewish temple had become a spiritual abomination which needed to be physically destroyed so as not to slander God.
For seven years Jesus and His disciples confirmed to many Jews that He was the Messiah whom the covenant had promised.
After the Cross, the scapegoat's thread never turned white to signify God accepted it on Israel's behalf for atonement. Why? Because Christ's sacrifice was the only acceptable atonement.
The 70th week was from 26-33AD. The temple's destruction and failure to be rebuilt over the last two millennia are best understood in light of Jesus' bodily death and resurrection three days later.
So you are saying the identity of "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the Messiah, and not the prince who is to come?
You seem to continue to believe that desolation in verse 27 refers to destruction, when the definition does not support that.
As of verse 26, the temple is destroyed.
In verse 27 we see the temple is having sacrifices and then being desolated, which means-
Strong's Number: 08074
Original WordWord Origin
~mXa primitive root
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
ShamemTWOT - 2409
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
shaw-mame' Verb
Definition
- to be desolate, be appalled, stun, stupefy
- (Qal)
- to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled
- to be appalled, be awestruck
- (Niphal)
- to be desolated, be made desolate
- to be appalled
- (Polel)
- to be stunned
- appalling, causing horror (participle) 1c
- horror-causer, appaller (subst)
- (Hiphil)
- to devastate, ravage, make desolated
- to appal, show horror
- (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated
- (Hithpolel)
- to cause to be desolate
- to be appalled, be astounded
- to cause oneself desolation, cause oneself ruin
JLB
This is exactly what I believe.
The destruction was determined within the 70 wks and consummated in 70 AD.
Please explain what you mean by, "the destruction was determined within the 70 weeks".
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
To restore and build Jerusalem...The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
Where is "this destruction" you speak of, that was "determined" within the 70 weeks?
I don't see any reference to "destruction" of the Jerusalem or the temple in the prophecy, only the opposite the restoration and rebuilding.
JLB
Daniel tells us what was desolate. Jerusalem, thy sanctuary, and Daniel's people.
Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
Dan 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
So when I said destruction I am only speaking of the outcome of events, which I can see why you are questioning my wording.
So I need to state this more clearly.
So what I am saying is that everything that happened was determined within those 70 wks, in fact at the beginning I think (which you shouldn't have any problem with I would think) but was not consummated until 70 AD.
Much like a marriage was determined long before it was consummated.
9:27 "......even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
No I don't believe it means physical destruction or any destruction.
I see desolation as being emptiness, hollow...much like the first definition above. Deserted.
That is verse 27 you are quoting, where you stated -
So you now don't get to use verse 27 as meaning the destruction of the city and sanctuary in 70 AD, as you have stated.
We are discussing your comment, whereby you have stated -
The destruction was determined within the 70 wks and consummated in 70 AD.
Destruction is not found in the contents of the prophecy.
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25
Rather, we see God's plan to restore and build Jerusalem even in troublesome times.
Again, Deb,
Where are getting the idea of a "determined" destruction of the temple and the city from?
It's just not in the prophecy we are discussing.
Please re-think your position in this matter.
Thanks, JLB
I believe everything in the 70 wks was determined. I think you do, too. We just don't agree on what those things were Or maybe when they happen.
Consummated means completed, full end. The reason I say destruction is because v26 tells us there was destruction. I believe that was only part of what was completed. So there was physical destruction as well as desolation. In fact, the physical destruction just completed the desolation of the place.
But more importantly was the spiritual desolation was made complete. God's Spirit was no longer there.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
I put the destruction of the city and sanctuary in the 3.5 yrs. before the completion of 70 AD.
When do you believe this will happen?
I know you are post trib. so at least we don't have the rapture to deal with...phew!
Blessings JLB
Deb,
I ask you to see the fact that the events of 70 AD, ie; the destruction of the city and sanctuary, did not happen within the 70 weeks time frame.
Once you can realize this simple truth, we can truly discuss this prophecy as well as what Jesus taught us in the Olivet Discourse.
Chopper, do you see this?
JLB
I ask you to see the fact that the events of 70 AD, ie; the destruction of the city and sanctuary, did not happen within the 70 weeks time frame.
Jesus is the only Prince who was promised to Israel, the Messiah.
Jesus is Holy. Conversely, by rejecting Christ and His teaching, the Jewish temple had become a spiritual abomination which needed to be physically destroyed so as not to slander God.
For seven years Jesus and His disciples confirmed to many Jews that He was the Messiah whom the covenant had promised.
After the Cross, the scapegoat's thread never turned white to signify God accepted it on Israel's behalf for atonement. Why? Because Christ's sacrifice was the only acceptable atonement.
The 70th week was from 26-33AD. The temple's destruction and failure to be rebuilt over the last two millennia are best understood in light of Jesus' bodily death and resurrection three days later.
I agree, the destruction happened in 70AD and not in the 70 wks.
But that the destruction was determined (chathak = to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out) before and within the 70 wks. I believe that when they rejected Jesus they sealed their destiny. And when they said, let His blood be on us and our children, they spoke the curse upon themselves.
What Sinthesis says in this post is what I believe. See the part I bolded. I believe that during the 70th wk this is what happened, this would include the ministry of Stephan for approx. 3.5 yrs that ended in his death by stoning.
Ok, so you agree that the events of 70 AD, did not occur within the 70 weeks time frame.
Now, you need to see that there is no destruction "determined" in the prophecy about the 70 weeks.
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. Daniel 9:24-25
Nothing about the prophecy of the 70 weeks contains any language about the destruction of the city and sanctuary.
The destruction of the city and sanctuary take place after the 69 weeks.
The destruction of the city and sanctuary take place before the 70th week.
The 70th week occurs in verse 27, which takes place after the events of 70 AD
JLB
I do understand what you are saying but I see it differently.
I believe that one has to keep the weeks together. Either all of the 70 wks are in the future or they are all referring to the first coming of the Messiah.
Not 69 in the past and one still out in the future.
Well I'm done for tonight.
Blessings
Greetings to all from sunny, cold, Massachusetts. I feel it's time I brought this great thread to a conclusion. Together, we have commented, researched, and learned from each other in a good way. Not only did I really want a true picture of end times theology, but I wanted a thread where we could cooperate with each other without offending remarks and I must say that I'm happy with the results.
After evaluating these different positions on End Times; Partial Preterist, Pre, Mid, Post-Trib Rapture of Christ's Church. I will gather up all the notes I have made from your posts, and post my conclusions....In saying that, I don't want anyone to think that I have set myself up as an expert on the subject because I'm not! I have entered this project with an open mind with no preconceptions. In fact, because of evidence provided by some of you, I changed my position from what I had held for many years.
God bless Reba and Eugene who have had the difficult task of keeping us cowboys from having a rodeo. They really followed this thread very closely and kept it running smoothly. Thank you so much, I'm only as good as my Moderators.
I will return soon.
I don't think Dan 9:26 is only talking about the physical destruction of the city and sanctuary.I believe everything in the 70 wks was determined. I think you do, too. We just don't agree on what those things were Or maybe when they happen.
Consummated means completed, full end. The reason I say destruction is because v26 tells us there was destruction. I believe that was only part of what was completed. So there was physical destruction as well as desolation. In fact, the physical destruction just completed the desolation of the place.
But more importantly was the spiritual desolation was made complete. God's Spirit was no longer there.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
I put the destruction of the city and sanctuary in the 3.5 yrs. before the completion of 70 AD.
When do you believe this will happen?
I know you are post trib. so at least we don't have the rapture to deal with...phew!
Blessings JLB