countdown" to Israel's end

[jgredline]

Hi Folks
This is a subject I have been wanting to discuss...How Israel fits into modern day history and times....Things like what is in place and what still needs to happen for the return of messiah...

For example...
With technology today, it is easy to see how the world will witness the execution of the two witnesses, We now have a livitecal line in the Cohen family, There is now 3 legit red heifers, what about the 10 nations, or a one world currency...
How about the fact that there is once again ''The Sanhedrin''..... I for one believe that Persia / Iran will lead us to the end times...Here is the latest coming out of the east.....

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's president said on Sunday the Lebanese and the Palestinians had pressed a "countdown button" to bring an end to Israel.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who triggered outrage in the West two years ago when he said Israel should be "wiped off the map", has often referred to the destruction of the Jewish state but says Iran is not a threat.

"With God's help, the countdown button for the destruction of the Zionist regime has been pushed by the hands of the children of Lebanon and Palestine," Ahmadinejad said in a speech.

"By God's will, we will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future," he said. He did not elaborate.
Reuters Pictures
Photo

Iran often praises the Palestinians for what it says is their resistance against Israeli occupation. Tehran also described the war last summer between Hezbollah in Lebanon and Israel as a victory for the Iranian-backed group.

"If you make a mistake and create another war against the oppressed Lebanese nation, this time the angry ocean of the nations of the region will remove your rotten ... roots from the region," the president said in another speech on Sunday night.

Ahmadinejad's speeches were made ahead of ahead of Monday's anniversary of the death in 1989 of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic, whose words Ahmadinejad echoed when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map".

The president's comments caused consternation in Israel and the West, which also fear Iran is seeking to build an atomic arsenal under cover of a civilian nuclear power programme, a charge Tehran denies.

Although Ahmadinejad has said Iran is not a threat to Israel, Iranian officials have said Tehran would respond swiftly to any Israeli attack. Some analysts have speculated Israel could seek to knock out Iran's atomic sites.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... RSS&rpc=22

 

[jgredline]

Exclusive: Putin threatens to target Europe with missiles



June 2, 2007 at 5:34 PM EDT

In an interview with the Globe and Mail, Russian President Vladimir Putin has threatened to target Europe with missiles, including potentially nuclear weapons, in a dramatic escalation of his Cold War-style showdown with the United States.

Mr. Putin, in an interview at his country residence outside Moscow, said he considers U.S. plans to build an eastern European anti-missile site to shoot down Iranian missiles a provocation aimed at Russia.

Asked what he might do to retaliate, he said he would return Russia to the Cold War status where missiles were aimed at European targets.

"It is obvious that if part of the strategic nuclear potential of the United States is located in Europe, and according to our military experts will be threatening us, we will have to respond," he said

For the rest of the story.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi JG!

To save repetition, threads @ many aspects of this vast topic are linked

BEFORE OUR EYES..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=18604

Ian

 

[Bubba]

"With technology today, it is easy to see how the world will witness the execution of the two witnesses"

Symbolic for Christ and the church and a 1st century happening.
Bubba

 

[MrVersatile48]

"With technology today, it is easy to see how the world will witness the execution of the two witnesses"

Symbolic for Christ and the church and a 1st century happening.
Bubba

The world did not witness the crucifixion - only those gathered in view did

& the church is still on Earth

Don't miss the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before the worst time on Earth comes - as in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 etc

Ian

 

[RND]

"With technology today, it is easy to see how the world will witness the execution of the two witnesses"

Symbolic for Christ and the church and a 1st century happening.
Bubba

I didn't realize there would be a public execution of the Old and New Testaments as seen in Moses and Elijah - the Law and the Prophets.

 

[RND]

The world did not witness the crucifixion - only those gathered in view did

& the church is still on Earth

Don't miss the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before the worst time on Earth comes - as in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 etc

Ian

Always makes me think of John Denver.

Of course we know there will be nothing secret about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Bubba]

I didn't realize there would be a public execution of the Old and New Testaments as seen in Moses and Elijah - the Law and the Prophets.

It depends on your interpretation of chapter 11, I say it is the church, someone else thinks it's two literal people, or the Old Testament and New Testament etc. I think I have good reason to believe it is the church. Rome was the hub of the world and persecution of the church was at it highest and I am sure at times when the church was literally underground (catacombs) they appeared dead. Public execution of the Church happen daily in the Coliseum. My view of the whole of the Revelation is very simple, and I agree with Augustine; the "city of God" and "the city of man" is the main focus through out the book.
Bubba

 

[jgredline]

It depends on your interpretation of chapter 11, I say it is the church, someone else thinks it's two literal people, or the Old Testament and New Testament etc. I think I have good reason to believe it is the church. Rome was the hub of the world and persecution of the church was at it highest and I am sure at times when the church was literally underground (catacombs) they appeared dead. Public execution of the Church happen daily in the Coliseum. My view of the whole of the Revelation is very simple, and I agree with Augustine; the "city of God" and "the city of man" is the main focus through out the book.
Bubba

So do you believe the church replaced Israel?

 

[Bubba]

So do you believe the church replaced Israel?

Yes, though once God lifts the "stupor" He now has on Israel, and prior to the Second Coming of Christ, He will bring many to faith through His Son. There is no other salvation plan for the ethnic Jew or Gentile (Romans 10). Thus, all of true "Israel will be saved" and grafted into the one olive tree that Gentiles are also grafted into. Note only one olive tree (Romans 11).If you look at the thread on Dispesationalism and Racism, you will see posts justifying why I believe the Church and Jesus ARE the substance to all the prophecies that Dispensationalist attribute to the rebuilding of the Temple, David on the throne, etc as a future event.
Bubba

 

[RND]

It depends on your interpretation of chapter 11, I say it is the church, someone else thinks it's two literal people, or the Old Testament and New Testament etc. I think I have good reason to believe it is the church. Rome was the hub of the world and persecution of the church was at it highest and I am sure at times when the church was literally underground (catacombs) they appeared dead. Public execution of the Church happen daily in the Coliseum. My view of the whole of the Revelation is very simple, and I agree with Augustine; the "city of God" and "the city of man" is the main focus through out the book.
Bubba

I actually understand what you are saying and happen to agree with you. During this time the false papal system worked overtime to hide and suppress the Word of God and persecute it's true followers.

I believe the rise of the reformation was the rising of the two witnesses so to speak.

Rev. 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The olive trees symbolize to me the oil necessary for the lamp and the two candlesticks represent light, or the Light of the World, the Word of God. Later, God brings these two "symbols" the two witnesses back to life. I believe this is the foretelling of the reformation against the beast, the papal system.

So in a way, I think we kinda agree somewhat.

 

[RND]

Yes, though once God lifts the "stupor" He now has on Israel, and prior to the Second Coming of Christ, He will bring many to faith through His Son. There is no other salvation plan for the ethnic Jew or Gentile (Romans 10). Thus, all of true "Israel will be saved" and grafted into the one olive tree that Gentiles are also grafted into. Note only one olive tree (Romans 11).If you look at the thread on Dispesationalism and Racism, you will see posts justifying why I believe the Church and Jesus ARE the substance to all the prophecies that Dispensationalist attribute to the rebuilding of the Temple, David on the throne, etc as a future event.
Bubba

That's spot on theology brother Bubba. Spot on.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Hi Folks
This is a subject I have been wanting to discuss...How Israel fits into modern day history and times....Things like what is in place and what still needs to happen for the return of messiah...

For example...
With technology today, it is easy to see how the world will witness the execution of the two witnesses, We now have a livitecal line in the Cohen family, There is now 3 legit red heifers, what about the 10 nations, or a one world currency...
How about the fact that there is once again ''The Sanhedrin''..... I for one believe that Persia / Iran will lead us to the end times...Here is the latest coming out of the east.....

My eschatology is similar to what many end-times preachers teach except for one thing. Being "British-Israelite", I expand the definition of Israel to more than just the Jew which basically consists of two tribes. The other ten tribes were lost to history and became other nations. Tracing the migrations of the Israelites, I believe they are the Celtic, Anglo-Saxon people, etc.. Therefore, when we consider the role of Israel in the end times, I not only think of the Jews, but the nations that comprised these other people, for they have inheritance in the land of Israel as well.

My theology is orthodox except for one main concept. The church is not only the spiritual seed of Abraham, but unbeknownst to themselves many there are the physical seed as well. And who is the church? Many are from the nations of Britain, her Commonwealth, NW Europe and the United States. When the spiritual seed are raptured with Christ, the remaining people will be left in the terrible times to come. But I believe as it says in Jeremiah that there will be a "time of Jacob's trouble" but he shall be saved out of it. God has a special place in His heart for the remaining (unsaved) people of Israel because of His promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob---- not because they are superior or special in any way. He promised that many will be saved.

This goes into the whole reason of the bible; God chosen a special people to be light-bearers of His Word (Genesis 12) and would not entrust that to non-Israelite Gentiles when the New Covenant was instituted. Rather, He used His own people even though they lost their national identity and thought of themselves as Gentiles. (But the bible states that would happen as well).

I often joke that I am the only 'British-Israelite' that believes in a pre-Trib rapture. Most do not, and many follow the Law of Moses.

 

[Bubba]

I actually understand what you are saying and happen to agree with you. During this time the false papal system worked overtime to hide and suppress the Word of God and persecute it's true followers.

I believe the rise of the reformation was the rising of the two witnesses so to speak.

Rev. 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The olive trees symbolize to me the oil necessary for the lamp and the two candlesticks represent light, or the Light of the World, the Word of God. Later, God brings these two "symbols" the two witnesses back to life. I believe this is the foretelling of the reformation against the beast, the papal system.

So in a way, I think we kinda agree somewhat.

I think that predominantly chapter 11 was written for the 1st century church, but this scenario repeats it self through out history until the Lord's return. I can very easily see connections to the Reformation period as well.

Peace, Bubba

 

[jgredline]

So if the church replaced Israel, How do you explain the jews survival for the past 2000 years?

How do you explain Israel becoming a nation some 1900 years after they were supposedly destroyed?

Through out the NT the bible clearly teaches that the Jews and the Church are two different people....I know that replacement theology was popular through out the reformation, because nobody could see the state of ''ISRAEL'' being a reality, but it is....

God made a covenant with the Jews and God is not man that he should lie..So how does replacement theology fit in here...?

Now when it comes to end times, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and perhaps Jack can explain this better than I.....

 

[tim-from-pa]

So if the church replaced Israel, How do you explain the jews survival for the past 2000 years?

How do you explain Israel becoming a nation some 1900 years after they were supposedly destroyed?

Through out the NT the bible clearly teaches that the Jews and the Church are two different people....I know that replacement theology was popular through out the reformation, because nobody could see the state of ''ISRAEL'' being a reality, but it is....

God made a covenant with the Jews and God is not man that he should lie..So how does replacement theology fit in here...?

Now when it comes to end times, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and perhaps Jack can explain this better than I.....

Jgredline:

Just a hint. Don't ask. I've been dealing with these posts in another thread regarding replacement theology and in spite of what the bible clearly says, its goes in one ear and out the other. I went in circles until I just gave up. No matter what you quote from scripture, there will be an invented song and dance around it.

 

[jgredline]

Jgredline:

Just a hint. Don't ask. I've been dealing with these posts in another thread regarding replacement theology and in spite of what the bible clearly says, its goes in one ear and out the other. I went in circles until I just gave up. No matter what you quote from scripture, there will be an invented song and dance around it.

Yea, I am waiting for the cut and paste response...

 

[golfjack]

reply

I haver been studying end times for about three years now. Have read many books on the subject, but on this forum the Historists don't seem to get it. Teaching this subject here is like running into a swarm of bees. Of course the Church does not replace Israel. To say it does is to spiritualize scriptures. One of the best books I have ever read is authored by Grant Jeffrories. You might want to obtain some of His teachings Javier and Tim.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Bubba]

Yea, I am waiting for the cut and paste response...

Jgredine,
For a person who is concerned about "cut and pasting" you seem to have your share on this thread. In regards to the Old Testament prophecies, visit the Dispensational and Racism post. Your questions are explained in detail in regards to these promises. Remember it is to an obedient Israel that these prophecies address. Only the church is seen as righteous and obedient through Christ. In regards to the Jews becoming a nation in 1948, God orchestrates everything, but you would be very hard put to try and say this is an answer to prophecy, considering over 80 % of the Jews in Israel are not religious at all, and every liberal issue that fundamentalist abhor the Jews are doing in Israel today. Ethiopia has been a majority Christian nation for 2000 years inspite of many conquering outsiders over those years. Are they any less a miracle? There race goes back to Solomon's time.
And as I said before, God does have a plan for ethnic Jews, but it is through and in Christ that they are grafted into the one olive tree (sound familar).
Bubba

 

[RND]

So if the church replaced Israel, How do you explain the jews survival for the past 2000 years?

Probally the same way you'd explain the "Christians" survival the past 2,00 years. If you haven't noticed, it hasn't just been Jews that have been persecuted in the last two millenium.

No one race or people has a lock on the claim of persecution.

How do you explain Israel becoming a nation some 1900 years after they were supposedly destroyed?

The Balfour doctrine?

The modern state of Israel is a secular state, with secular laws. They are no more representative of the Biblical nation of Israel than the native Americans might be.

Through out the NT the bible clearly teaches that the Jews and the Church are two different people....

Um, no it doesn't. Quite the contrary it affirms that those who accept Jesus Christ are heirs to the promises God gave to Abraham. For the record Abraham was not a Jew. He was Chaldean. Issac wasn't a Jew either. Neither was Jacob.

Galatians 3: 28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I know that replacement theology was popular through out the reformation, because nobody could see the state of ''ISRAEL'' being a reality, but it is....

Yes, it really is a secular state, with adopted laws from the Roman Empire.

God made a covenant with the Jews and God is not man that he should lie..So how does replacement theology fit in here...?

Through the blood of Christ God reconciled the world to Himself.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 2:2
And he (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Now when it comes to end times, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and perhaps Jack can explain this better than I.....

You know, if you can read and have a modicum of rational intelligence, understanding that one is not a Jew on the outside, but on the inside who's heart has been circumcised, then you can pretty much grasp anything. Once I got this one teaching in my understanding, all of scripture and the plan of salvation came together so clearly.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.