[_ Old Earth _] Creation

[Rick W]

Well, this forum is called Christianity and science so why not a discussion on the scientific side of Creation?
By what process is matter created from nothingness?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

 

[jasoncran]

rick, we have yec forum so that it can be discussed without debate.

 

[Asyncritus]

Well, this forum is called Christianity and science so why not a discussion on the scientific side of Creation?
By what process is matter created from nothingness?

This is a non-starter, Rick.

How can we possibly even attempt to answer that question? It is known only unto God, and that is the best anyone can say.

 

[Rick W]

It is known only unto God, and that is the best anyone can say.

If we honestly believe that to be true and I mean to the very depth of our soul then by what logic do we set limits to God's power and imagination to fit into our box of limited understanding?
We are observers of Creation, we are manipulators of the same. We expect all things to be manipulated, to be transformed by the laws of transition of that observation because we have nothing else. We don't know how to create something from nothing, we can't even begin to formulate a theory for we have no basis of knowledge to use as a foundation. We even go so far as to use the Creation itself as evidence to limit the Creator in His methods and reasoning. Thus we lift Creation, all things observed, above the Creator making Creation, the universe and everything in it, the master to define the things we don't understand.

 

[Asyncritus]

If we honestly believe that to be true and I mean to the very depth of our soul then by what logic do we set limits to God's power and imagination to fit into our box of limited understanding?

I don't understand how you got here. Who is setting limits?

We are observers of Creation, we are manipulators of the same. We expect all things to be manipulated, to be transformed by the laws of transition of that observation because we have nothing else.

That is correct.
But you're now talking about things that HAVE BEEN created.

Which is not what the OP asked.

We don't know how to create something from nothing, we can't even begin to formulate a theory for we have no basis of knowledge to use as a foundation.

Which is exactly what I said in so many words.

We even go so far as to use the Creation itself as evidence to limit the Creator in His methods and reasoning. Thus we lift Creation, all things observed, above the Creator making Creation, the universe and everything in it, the master to define the things we don't understand.

Now you've really lost me. Sorry.

 

[jasoncran]

the jews don't bother looking at how it happened but that it did happen and try to learn from the mistakes of man in that first book of the story. genesis wasn't written as an argument against Darwin but as a story of how isreal came to be.

 

[Vaccine]

If we honestly believe that to be true and I mean to the very depth of our soul then by what logic do we set limits to God's power and imagination to fit into our box of limited understanding?
We are observers of Creation, we are manipulators of the same. We expect all things to be manipulated, to be transformed by the laws of transition of that observation because we have nothing else. We don't know how to create something from nothing, we can't even begin to formulate a theory for we have no basis of knowledge to use as a foundation. We even go so far as to use the Creation itself as evidence to limit the Creator in His methods and reasoning. Thus we lift Creation, all things observed, above the Creator making Creation, the universe and everything in it, the master to define the things we don't understand.

If I understand you correctly, I agree. It's as if saying "I don't know how that came to be" is just too hard for many to say.
Job was asked:
"Were you there when I made the world? If you know so much, tell me about it." Job 38:4

"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding." Jeremiah 51:15

 

[Rick W]

If I understand you correctly, I agree. It's as if saying "I don't know how that came to be" is just too hard for many to say.

You're with me here.
It's so far beyond our comprehension that we can't even discuss it. But that which we observe we have much to say making conclusions without the very basis of what we cannot discuss.
Without understanding the beginning, with no idea of the mechanism by which it was done we put limits on God's power rather than admitting the limits of our intellect thereby claiming we know what we're talking about.

 

[jasoncran]

You're with me here.
It's so far beyond our comprehension that we can't even discuss it. But that which we observe we have much to say making conclusions without the very basis of what we cannot discuss.
Without understanding the beginning, with no idea of the mechanism by which it was done we put limits on God's power rather than admitting the limits of our intellect thereby claiming we know what we're talking about.

I have been alluding to that for a while that is why I don't debate this anymore. I would rather call jeff and talk about the torah and share. when we see genesis for what it is and for when then can see what the Lord was using it for and why moses penned it.

 

[Rick W]

I asked a question long ago.
Is there a limit to man's knowledge?
I believe there is . And if I can believe that in this particular case then I can conclude man's understanding limited in other unimagined areas as well.

 

[Claudya]

By what process is matter created from nothingness?

If you really want to be scientific about it:
http://www.popsci.com/science/artic...ing-theory-says-matter-can-be-conjured-vacuum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_nucleosynthesis
http://www.newscientist.com/article...-merely-vacuum-fluctuations.html#.UpaaRid0nzQ
http://cms.web.cern.ch/news/how-did-matter-form

From an epistemological standpoint those articles are a lot more precise than the Bible verse you quoted.
Of course from a spiritual standpoint the Bible is no less the truth than modern physics.

 

[Claudya]

This is a non-starter, Rick.

How can we possibly even attempt to answer that question? It is known only unto God, and that is the best anyone can say.

We do actually have a good idea about the answer to that question.
God has given us curiosity, reason and intellect so we can attempt to understand His creation so we will praise Him even more and see His greatness even more clearly.

You're with me here.
It's so far beyond our comprehension that we can't even discuss it. But that which we observe we have much to say making conclusions without the very basis of what we cannot discuss.
Without understanding the beginning, with no idea of the mechanism by which it was done we put limits on God's power rather than admitting the limits of our intellect thereby claiming we know what we're talking about.

While admiting our limits is wise, insisting that our limits have to remain as they are sounds like rejecting the gift the Creator has given us in creating our intellects. We are clearly made to research and understand. That's a major part of the in-His-image-ness. I have no Bible verse to back that statement; but the way our mind is made and has developed through history it seems that, besides worshipping and serving God our purpose as humankind is to understand all the greatness and complexity of His creation.

 

[Rick W]

All you need is an ultra-high-intensity laser, a particle accelerator, and an open mind about what exactly "nothing" is (hint: it's something).

So we have to change our minds about what nothing is. So creation is still transmutation of something that already exists.

 

[Rick W]

This is an interesting subject I'll continue when I get home

 

[Claudya]

All you need is an ultra-high-intensity laser, a particle accelerator, and an open mind about what exactly "nothing" is (hint: it's something).

So we have to change our minds about what nothing is. So creation is still transmutation of something that already exists.

Depends on how you define "existence". Those matter-anti matter particles don't exist in the way the matter you see around you does. They are virtual particles that "exist" only for extremely small amounts of time like fluctuations on an ocean surface. They are like ghosts of a mathematical equation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_field_theory

 

[Rick W]

Creation of the universe.
Do we really need to start with something so big?
How about something smaller like the fish with which Christ fed the multitudes?

 

[Barbarian]

The details as to how the universe came to be is beyond the reach of science. The rest, He made accessible to us, and we can, if we care to find out, learn about it.

 

[Rick W]

The principles of creation is beyond the reach of science but not beyond the reach of observation. We don't need to look at the entire universe to know science is at a loss to explain it. We do see creation on a much smaller level within the pages of the Gospels.

A person from the past may look at a jumbo jet and be overwhelmed by it's complexity. But the principles of it's workings can be demonstrated on a smaller scale. It's propulsion is based on air escaping from a simple balloon. The principles are similar though the jet is built to a much larger scale. It's electrical systems are based on a simple magnet passing through a coil of wire. It's communication systems based on a spark generating a similar charge of energy elsewhere.

The problem remains the same. We observe the results. And we are limited in intellect to conceive even the basic principles of creation whether it be in Genesis or Matthew 14:19-21.

 

[jasoncran]

We do actually have a good idea about the answer to that question.
God has given us curiosity, reason and intellect so we can attempt to understand His creation so we will praise Him even more and see His greatness even more clearly.


While admiting our limits is wise, insisting that our limits have to remain as they are sounds like rejecting the gift the Creator has given us in creating our intellects. We are clearly made to research and understand. That's a major part of the in-His-image-ness. I have no Bible verse to back that statement; but the way our mind is made and has developed through history it seems that, besides worshipping and serving God our purpose as humankind is to understand all the greatness and complexity of His creation.

how can an a diety who is all knowing be curious? I think he made us wanting to be able to love him but made us to small to be able actually understand him, thus the asking questions. not that he himself is curious.

 

[Barbarian]

The principles of creation is beyond the reach of science but not beyond the reach of observation.

Hence the "invisible things, clearly seen" St. Paul mentioned in Romans.

We don't need to look at the entire universe to know science is at a loss to explain it.

God told us He is the source of it. The details are up to us.

A person from the past may look at a jumbo jet and be overwhelmed by it's complexity. But the principles of it's workings can be demonstrated on a smaller scale.

Calvin and Luther declared heliocentrism to be contrary to scripture. They merely misunderstood scripture. If God and nature seem to be contradictory, it is only because we have misunderstood one or the other or both. And the two errors are equally possible.

It's propulsion is based on air escaping from a simple balloon. The principles are similar though the jet is built to a much larger scale. It's electrical systems are based on a simple magnet passing through a coil of wire. It's communication systems based on a spark generating a similar charge of energy elsewhere.

Hence Newton's great insight that the movements of the Moon and the planets was by the same force as an apple falling from a tree.

The problem remains the same. We observe the results. And we are limited in intellect to conceive even the basic principles of creation whether it be in Genesis or Matthew 14:19-21.

And yet He made the details completely accessible to us. Isn't that to His glory?